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  1. #1
    Registered User dray86's Avatar
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    Done the clean bulk, struggling in the cutting phase. Needs some tips/advice

    Fellow brothers,

    This is my first post so I'll try keep it clean and simple.

    Age: 26
    Sex: male
    Hieght: 5ft 9inches.
    Body type: Mesomorph.
    Estimated bodyfat: 9-12% (top four abs visible).

    Macros:
    Sustain rate = 2810 cal/day
    For gains = 3091-3372 cal/day
    For weight loss = 2248 – 2529 cal/day

    Current diet:
    Meal 1
    Glass of water
    Oats + Protein shake

    Meal 2
    1x Coffee (with trim or soy milk)
    1x 95g tinned tuna in olive oil on wholemeal corn thins
    1x apple
    1x handful of almonds

    Meal 3
    1x Subway foot long turkey/chicken sandwich
    1x Opti-men multivitamin
    2x 1000mg fish oil pills
    1x green tea

    Pre-workout
    1x scoop of Assault

    Intra-workout:1:1
    1x serving of Modern BCAA (ratio

    Post-workout
    1.5x scoop of protein isolate
    1x banana

    Meal 4
    150-250g Chicken/Beef dish
    sweet potato or rice
    steamed veges (frozen pack)

    Meal 5
    1x casein protein shake before bed.

    Current Training Schedule:
    Monday: Legs + 15min abs
    Tuesday: HIIT
    Wednesday: Chest/Back + 15min abs
    Thursday: HIIT
    Friday: Shoulders/Arms + 15min abs
    Saturday: rest
    Sunday: rest

    Background:
    I've been 75kg since high school but recently got clued up on my macros and managed to put another 5kgs on in a month, so now I'm sitting at 80kg. The heaviest I've ever been.

    Now the hard part... I want to stay 80 kgs of lean mass but drop my bodyfat to around 6-8%.

    Question: What's the optimum way of achieving this? I've never had the bottom 2x abs showing and this is my dream.

    I know I've got to cut the carbs but I don't want to cut the muscle (hence why I drink the BCAA's during my workout).

    Can I get some bro-vice from you aesthetics-looking ****s out there?
    Last edited by dray86; 11-08-2012 at 12:46 PM. Reason: Accidentally put Ectomorph for bodytype. Definately a Mesomorph
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  2. #2
    Registered User acrawlingchaos's Avatar
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    You're not an ectomorph. Somatypes have been long debunked, and even if there was something to them, it wouldn't change the way you diet or train.

    Is there a particular reason you are eating 5 meals a day?

    Your food list is irrelvant, what are your macros?


    Continue eating a deficit and reduce bodyfat. If you keep your deficit small, and hit your macros, you should maintain lean mass well enough. This is a matter of diet, not training.
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  3. #3
    Registered User layarph's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by acrawlingchaos View Post
    You're not an ectomorph. Somatypes have been long debunked, and even if there was something to them, it wouldn't change the way you diet or train.

    Is there a particular reason you are eating 5 meals a day?

    Your food list is irrelvant, what are your macros?


    Continue eating a deficit and reduce bodyfat. If you keep your deficit small, and hit your macros, you should maintain lean mass well enough. This is a matter of diet, not training.
    This x 2.

    Why so many meals? No need for it what so ever, unless it is convenient for you.

    Why BCAAs? Completely useless waste of money and not needed if you are hitting your protein requirement.

    Why casein before bed? It takes 24-72 hours to go catabolic depending on the individual.

    The casein and BCAA market are 2 of the biggest scams going in my opinion.

    You don't have to cut the carbs, you have to go on a caloric deficit. Carbs are much more anabolic than fat, so if you're very interested in maintaining all your muscle, you will want to be keeping the carbs in any way.
    "Never attempt to train yourself into a caloric deficit. Don't spend hours on the treadmill. Diet comes first, cardio second. The dumbest fat loss strategy ever devised is used by people that wake up early in the morning before going to work to do cardio and follow that up with "recovery shake." Congratulations, you just wasted two hours of your life." Martin Berkhan
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  4. #4
    Registered User dray86's Avatar
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    Thanks for the advice so far.

    I figured 4-6 meals a day was good for the metabolism (keep that fire burning).

    The BCAA's is something I've only recently purchased (to try out) and to be honest, I just wanted to reduce any chance of losing the lean mass I've acquired over the past few months.

    Yes - I've heard that BCAA's is a scam, but I've also read that it works for others. No harm in trying IMO. I feel like I could easily go down to my normal 75kg's if I wanted to. I guess that's why I'm also having 4-6 meals a day.

    I have Casein before bed to hit my protein macros but also because I don't want to become catabolic when I sleep. Did I mention that some nights (about 30 minutes before bed) I do 50x laps in a 25m pool?

    @AMlayarph - Can you elaborate more on this statement? "You don't have to cut the carbs, you have to go on a caloric deficit."
    How does one become calorie deficient without reducing carbs?
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  5. #5
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    Originally Posted by dray86 View Post
    Thanks for the advice so far.

    I figured 4-6 meals a day was good for the metabolism (keep that fire burning). WRONG please read leangains.com


    The BCAA's is something I've only recently purchased (to try out) and to be honest, I just wanted to reduce any chance of losing the lean mass I've acquired over the past few months.

    Yes - I've heard that BCAA's is a scam, but I've also read that it works for others. No harm in trying IMO. I feel like I could easily go down to my normal 75kg's if I wanted to. I guess that's why I'm also having 4-6 meals a day.

    I have Casein before bed to hit my protein macros but also because I don't want to become catabolic when I sleep. Did I mention that some nights (about 30 minutes before bed) I do 50x laps in a 25m pool? WHY NOT JUST DRINK YOU PROTEIN SHAKE WITH MILK?



    @AMlayarph - Can you elaborate more on this statement? "You don't have to cut the carbs, you have to go on a caloric deficit."
    How does one become calorie deficient without reducing carbs?


    WRONG please read leangains.com

    Why not drink your protein shake with milk? That would give you your casein.
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  6. #6
    Polski Bro mobikwa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dray86 View Post
    Thanks for the advice so far.

    I figured 4-6 meals a day was good for the metabolism (keep that fire burning).
    Not neccesary, people cut fat on 1 meal a day

    The BCAA's is something I've only recently purchased (to try out) and to be honest, I just wanted to reduce any chance of losing the lean mass I've acquired over the past few months.

    Yes - I've heard that BCAA's is a scam, but I've also read that it works for others. No harm in trying IMO. I feel like I could easily go down to my normal 75kg's if I wanted to. I guess that's why I'm also having 4-6 meals a day.
    I like BCAA's myself, spend your money how you please, it's no one else's business how you "waste" your money

    I have Casein before bed to hit my protein macros but also because I don't want to become catabolic when I sleep. Did I mention that some nights (about 30 minutes before bed) I do 50x laps in a 25m pool?
    Casein itself is not neccesary but it's not bad either, any source of protein will work. You won't go catabolic at night.

    @AMlayarph - Can you elaborate more on this statement? "You don't have to cut the carbs, you have to go on a caloric deficit."
    How does one become calorie deficient without reducing carbs?
    By reducing overall calories and increasing caloric expenditure (cardio usually)
    Check bold for responses.

    Have you considered a keto diet? I'm on it now, I've lost maybe 15-20 lbs in about 1.5 months. The best part is that it keeps me from feeling hungry. I did the standard lower carb/fat diet before but I would be starving 30 minutes after every meal, it was hell. Now I end up having a giant meal/shake before bed to make up for the calories I didn't eat during the day.
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  7. #7
    LIFT HEAVIER NEXT MONTH kanis999's Avatar
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    You should probably be posting in the losing fat and nutrition forums, not the exercise forum.

    Maintaining muscle mass on a cut is a matter of keeping protein high and training in a manner that you would expect to increase muscle mass on a bulk. And don't overdo it on volume.

    Most people around here consider the 'eat x number of meals per day' thing a debunked myth. All that really matters is your net calorie consumption throughout a given day and your macro intake.
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  8. #8
    Registered User dray86's Avatar
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    As I read the responses I am starting to agree that this should have been posted in the losing fat section. My bad.

    Have you considered a keto diet?
    I know that this consists of having something like 30g of carbs a day. My only concern is that I'll lose some muscle mass. How long would you go on this Keto diet for?

    Edit: I'll take a look at that leangains.com site when I get home from work.
    Last edited by dray86; 11-08-2012 at 02:07 PM.
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  9. #9
    Polski Bro mobikwa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dray86 View Post
    As I read the responses I am starting to agree that this should have been posted in the losing fat section. My bad.

    Have you considered a keto diet?
    I know that this consists of having something like 30g of carbs a day. My only concern is that I'll lose some muscle mass. How long would you go on this Keto diet for?

    Edit: I'll take a look at that leangains.com site when I get home from work.
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/forumdisplay.php?f=61

    Apparently it's supposed to be more muscle sparing than traditional diets. I don't know if that's true or not but the diet works for me.
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  10. #10
    Time to Cut Hockey16z's Avatar
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    @above, keto works, but I found that I lost way too much strength for my liking.

    I just do IIFYM for bulking and cutting (bulk = if it fits your mouth, cut = if it fits your macros).

    Works perfect
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  11. #11
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    great posts for the most part, i'll just simply state that i easily cut weight WITH simple carbs AND 1-2 meals a day in my daily cutting diets. OP seems to believe in a lot of fat loss myths that have been debunked. biggest focus should be that high protein intake and caloric deficit. all else will fall into place with consistency and time. 8-10% will have OP at his goals. 6% is getting close to contest shape...definitely not necessary nor would i consider it sustainable for the majority of people.
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  12. #12
    Registered User dray86's Avatar
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    Thanks guys, so what I've taken from this so far with regards to nutrition:
    -stick with high protein
    -forget about how many meals per day but rather focus on calorie intake (2000-2200 cals a day?)
    -pickup on the Keto diet program

    Can I assume my training routine is fine since no-one has really mentioned it?

    With weight days I tend to aim for high-weight, low rep (reps never exceeding 12 - if it does, I increase the weight).

    For my HIIT days, I usually do circuit type routines using dumbells and other gym equipment.

    My only cardio is usually a 10 min warmup on the cross trainer pre-workout or swimming in the evenings before bed.

    I also forgot to mention that I have an IT office job which is unfortunately very stagnant. On the plus side, I do sit on a swiss ball to help my core/back posture :P (inb4 swiss ball myth).
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  13. #13
    Time to Cut Hockey16z's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dray86 View Post
    Thanks guys, so what I've taken from this so far with regards to nutrition:
    -stick with high protein
    -forget about how many meals per day but rather focus on calorie intake (2000-2200 cals a day?)
    -pickup on the Keto diet program

    Can I assume my training routine is fine since no-one has really mentioned it?

    With weight days I tend to aim for high-weight, low rep (reps never exceeding 12 - if it does, I increase the weight).

    For my HIIT days, I usually do circuit type routines using dumbells and other gym equipment.

    My only cardio is usually a 10 min warmup on the cross trainer pre-workout or swimming in the evenings before bed.

    I also forgot to mention that I have an IT office job which is unfortunately very stagnant. On the plus side, I do sit on a swiss ball to help my core/back posture :P (inb4 swiss ball myth).
    Take it from someone that has done keto in the past. If you don't have much strength to lose, do it, otherwise do IIFYM. The reason is that I lost a ton of strength. Low carbs just made it so much harder to train with the same weight. IIFYM, I've had no problems. (2k-2.2k calories for you should be fine)
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  14. #14
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    Originally Posted by Hockey16z View Post
    Take it from someone that has done keto in the past. If you don't have much strength to lose, do it, otherwise do IIFYM. The reason is that I lost a ton of strength. Low carbs just made it so much harder to train with the same weight. IIFYM, I've had no problems. (2k-2.2k calories for you should be fine)
    It differs from person to person. I have actually gained strength on keto.

    355 full squat and 445 deadlift, I'm not terribly weak. No bench numbers since I do dumbbells but I did throw up 225x5 a few weeks ago.
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  15. #15
    Registered User dray86's Avatar
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    Starting the Keto Diet on Monday.

    I used the Keto calculator found here (bodybuilding.com/fun/sclark91.htm) and came up with the following:

    Weekdays:
    Protein Per Day: 153 grams or 612 calories.
    Fat Per Day: 206-245 grams or 1852-2204 calories.

    Assuming 5x meals a day
    Protein Per Meal: 31 grams or 122 calories.
    Fat Per Meal: 41-49 grams or 370-441 calories.

    Weekends:
    Protein: 176 grams.
    Carbs: 800-960 grams.
    Fat: No more than 80 grams.

    Edit: Is it possible for a mod to move this thread to the "lose fat" area?
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  16. #16
    Registered User acrawlingchaos's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mobikwa View Post
    It differs from person to person. I have actually gained strength on keto.

    355 full squat and 445 deadlift, I'm not terribly weak. No bench numbers since I do dumbbells but I did throw up 225x5 a few weeks ago.
    IMO, Keto is unnecessarily restrictive, and requires pretty detailed reporting with your diet to make sure you don't lose strength.

    A simple deficit while hitting baseline macros is much more sane, requires less effort and is much more sustainable for someone just starting out.




    OP What the hell are you still insisting on 5 meals a day? This is fine if you enjoy this eating pattern... but if you are forcing yourself into it... DON'T. This is why novices need to adhere to the basics. People start worrying about sh*t like meal timing, frequency, keto, GI, glutten and stray from the very basics.
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  17. #17
    Registered User weknow24's Avatar
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    Meal timing is irrelevant.

    You don't need BCAAs

    You don't need casein. As others have said, takes much longer than you think to go catabolic. This is no concern.

    To keep muscle mass you need two things: Get sufficient protein and maintain strength in the gym (ie, lift as heavy as you were if you were bulking!). Once you start lifting sissy ass weights you will lose unnecessary muscle.
    So ask yourself can you hit protein and maintain your strength on whatever deficit you're on? If so, then you will not lose unnecessary muscle .
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  18. #18
    Registered User layarph's Avatar
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    There's no need for this thread to go so off stray.

    You can do keto if you like but there is no advantage to it over a caloric deficit which doesn't restrict certain foods.

    Eat the foods you enjoy, at a caloric deficit, whilst hitting your protein minimum (1g per lb of body mass) and fat minimum (0.45g per lb of body mass). It's that simple. No need to complicate it any further.
    "Never attempt to train yourself into a caloric deficit. Don't spend hours on the treadmill. Diet comes first, cardio second. The dumbest fat loss strategy ever devised is used by people that wake up early in the morning before going to work to do cardio and follow that up with "recovery shake." Congratulations, you just wasted two hours of your life." Martin Berkhan
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  19. #19
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    Isn't the whole point of doing a clean bulk the fact that there is no need for cutting after??

    Anywho, if you are having trouble cutting, i would go over cals again and see where i could make a deficit. The idea is simple but the follow through is the hard part, keep a balanced diet, have a calorie deficit, some cardio if you like but it's mainly diet. See how that goes and adjust calories accordingly, its not hard to overestimate how many calories you actually need and underestimate how many you have consumed...

    Any calculation, ^^^ for example, should be per lb of LEAN body mass, this is one place where people can add extra uncalled for calories...
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  20. #20
    Registered User Rtettz's Avatar
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    Try not eating for a few days that should cut u up abit
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  21. #21
    Registered User majidz's Avatar
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    dray86 ..
    I have struggled for years to cut and finally i did it and i got amazing body ... Your diet is really good ... try to add CLA and Omega3 to your supplements (omega 3 taken after meals, it is proven that it takes out the fat) ..
    Do 1 hour weights then take your protein shake ,, then do cardio for half hour ..
    To see amazing results have the swimming as option, it will trimm the fat and will target new areas of your body and activate them + and this is very very important , it will save your joints from being over used , take this advice
    from a guy who did a surgery at the knee and maybe shoulder (hope not) and know how important it is to take care of joints


    Note : if you can take BCAA during workout, that would be great to stop breaking muscles


    Cheers
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