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  1. #1
    Registered User Lewdawgdude's Avatar
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    Post Workout Insulin Spike?

    A lot of sources reccomend to spike insulin with a fast digesting protein post workout. They say that your muscles post workout are glycogen deprived and the insulin spike will restore muscle glycogen, and not be stored as fat.

    But if this is true, later on in the day your muscle glycogen will be full and any insulin you get will store fat.

    So is there any advantage to filling up your muscle glycogen immediately? Or are there any other advantages to post workout insulin spike that I'm missing? Thx
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    Most supplement company's will say your muscles are 'glycogen deprived' to get you to buy their products. Personally, i call bull****. Guys like us who are lifting weights aren't going to be completely glycogen deprived after a workout. If lifting heavy, our main fuel source is ATP.. won't go into too much detail, but the ones who are most likely to be glycogen deprived are those skinny ****s who run huge marathons. Just my thoughts
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    The insulin spike apparently helps shuttle protein into the muscles, though of course, that is only dependent on the source of protein (fast absorbing vs slow). Even then, some people believe that this theory is BS.
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    Registered User Kniffmeister's Avatar
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    Insulin can not be spiked by a fast digesting protein. Or any kind of protein for that matter. Working out will use glycogen in your muscle cells for energy but it isn't necessary to cause a huge increase in insulin with a high amount of high GI carbohydrates post workout unless you plan on participating in another physical event the same day. Only a moderate rise in insulin will maximize anabolism post workout. You can do this by eating any kind of carbohydrates, not necessarily sugar, as long as it is of a sufficient amount (probably at least 30-40 grams for most people.)
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  5. #5
    Registered User rand18m's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kniffmeister View Post
    Insulin can not be spiked by a fast digesting protein. Or any kind of protein for that matter. Working out will use glycogen in your muscle cells for energy but it isn't necessary to cause a huge increase in insulin with a high amount of high GI carbohydrates post workout unless you plan on participating in another physical event the same day. Only a moderate rise in insulin will maximize anabolism post workout. You can do this by eating any kind of carbohydrates, not necessarily sugar, as long as it is of a sufficient amount (probably at least 30-40 grams for most people.)
    On the contrary protein/amino acids most certainly will cause insulin secretion. Just FYI^^

    Op here is the sticky by AA that helps put the post workout theory into perspective.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=123915821
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  6. #6
    Registered User Kniffmeister's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rand18m View Post
    On the contrary protein/amino acids most certainly will cause insulin secretion. Just FYI^^
    I never said it didn't. I said it doesn't spike insulin. Yes, protein can cause a small insulin response.
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  7. #7
    Registered User rand18m's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kniffmeister View Post
    I never said it didn't. I said it doesn't spike insulin. Yes, protein can cause a small insulin response.
    Yes it can "spike insulin", and can you explain the difference to me of insulin secretion and an insulin spike? Not trying to be an ass but for the most part they are the same thing.
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  8. #8
    Registered User Kniffmeister's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rand18m View Post
    Yes it can "spike insulin", and can you explain the difference to me of insulin secretion and an insulin spike? Not trying to be an ass but for the most part they are the same thing.
    Of course. They really aren't synonymous. Insulin secretion just refers to insulin being secreted by the pancreas without any specific quantity being specified where an insulin spike is when a large amount of insulin is quickly secreted due to a rapid increase in the concentration of blood glucose and then a quick drop in insulin and blood glucose concentrations. Under normal circumstances, a protein source by itself won't cause this because of the inefficiency of gluconeogenesis of protein/amino acids as a metabolic pathway when compared to glycolysis.

    Hope this answers your question.
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  9. #9
    Registered User MNnat's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Lewdawgdude View Post
    A lot of sources reccomend to spike insulin with a fast digesting protein post workout. They say that your muscles post workout are glycogen deprived and the insulin spike will restore muscle glycogen, and not be stored as fat.

    But if this is true, later on in the day your muscle glycogen will be full and any insulin you get will store fat.

    So is there any advantage to filling up your muscle glycogen immediately? Or are there any other advantages to post workout insulin spike that I'm missing? Thx
    Getting carbs in after a lift is important also b/c it will suppress the stress hormone - cortisol, and then escalate the protein synthesis process of rebuilding muscle. Any carbs will due, but faster digesting the better, typically measured by GI (glycemic index). For example, white rice has higher GI than brown rice, therefore better choice for post-workout. One of the best is dextrose (which you can buy in bulk) and mix with why immediately after workout. You probably need something is the range of 30-60 grams of carbs afterwards to do the trick - depending on your LBM (lean body mass).
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  10. #10
    Registered User rand18m's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kniffmeister View Post
    Of course. They really aren't synonymous. Insulin secretion just refers to insulin being secreted by the pancreas without any specific quantity being specified where an insulin spike is when a large amount of insulin is quickly secreted due to a rapid increase in the concentration of blood glucose and then a quick drop in insulin and blood glucose concentrations. Under normal circumstances, a protein source by itself won't cause this because of the inefficiency of gluconeogenesis of protein/amino acids as a metabolic pathway when compared to glycolysis.

    Hope this answers your question.
    LOL'd! No that doesn't answer any questions, as I really didn't have one.
    This has nothing to do with gluconeogenesis and you simply have more to learn. Do some searching and you'll find literature on protein sources and insulin response and you'll find that many sources of protein/fat, such as beef, can have insulin responses very similar to many of the foods classified as "high GI".
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  11. #11
    Registered User rand18m's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MNnat View Post
    Getting carbs in after a lift is important also b/c it will suppress the stress hormone - cortisol, and then escalate the protein synthesis process of rebuilding muscle. Any carbs will due, but faster digesting the better, typically measured by GI (glycemic index). For example, white rice has higher GI than brown rice, therefore better choice for post-workout. One of the best is dextrose (which you can buy in bulk) and mix with why immediately after workout. You probably need something is the range of 30-60 grams of carbs afterwards to do the trick - depending on your LBM (lean body mass).
    MPS is elevated for 24-48 hours so no, it's really not that important for most.

    Glycemic index has no real relevance with the possible exception of diabetics, and then in the context of a varied diet likely makes little to no difference.

    Also you have to take into account whether or not someone has eaten anything during the day, digestion and absorption takes time and most are in a post prandial state while working out so substrates are being absorbed throughout the day. If you are training fasted then maybe, but again everyone will be eating within a few hours and that is sufficient for intermediate lifters.

    You should check out AA's sticky above that addresses post workout meals. What's most important is total daily intake, and unless training fasted, ingesting protein/carbs post workout makes little difference with the only potential exception being the highly elite BBd'er. Training and diet needn't be so restrictive.
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  12. #12
    Registered User Kniffmeister's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by rand18m View Post
    LOL'd! No that doesn't answer any questions, as I really didn't have one.
    This has nothing to do with gluconeogenesis and you simply have more to learn. Do some searching and you'll find literature on protein sources and insulin response and you'll find that many sources of protein/fat, such as beef, can have insulin responses very similar to many of the foods classified as "high GI".
    Didn't have one?

    Originally Posted by rand18m View Post
    Yes it can "spike insulin", and can you explain the difference to me of insulin secretion and an insulin spike? Not trying to be an ass but for the most part they are the same thing.
    Looks like a question to me.

    Oh how unaware you are... It's apparent you do not even know what gluconeogenesis is if you think this has nothing to do with gluconeogenesis. FYI, gluconeogenesis is the synthesis of glucose from any carbon substrate other than carbohydrate substrates. In order for insulin to be secreted biphasically, as it does with carbohydrates, glucose must be detected in the blood. In a meal containing only protein, like we are describing, glucose from this meal won't get into the blood until gluconeogenesis occurs to synthesize glucose from the amino acids that are broken down from the protein source. The rate at which gluconeogenesis converts amino acids to glucose is comparatively a very small amount to the rate at which glycolysis breaks down carbohydrates into glucose, ultimately only causing a very small insulin response from any protein source. Now, there are amino acids that cause an insulin response before they can be converted into glucose... Although the insulin response from amino acids is monophasic, so the pancreas does not produce a secondary insulin response as it does with glucose, which is comparitively the larger release. So no, the insulin response from a protein source is not similar at all to the insulin response to "high GI" carbohydrates. Completely different in fact.

    By the way, we all have more to learn.
    /thread
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  13. #13
    Registered User rand18m's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kniffmeister View Post
    Didn't have one?


    Looks like a question to me.

    Oh how unaware you are... It's apparent you do not even know what gluconeogenesis is if you think this has nothing to do with gluconeogenesis. FYI, gluconeogenesis is the synthesis of glucose from any carbon substrate other than carbohydrate substrates. In order for insulin to be secreted biphasically, as it does with carbohydrates, glucose must be detected in the blood. In a meal containing only protein, like we are describing, glucose from this meal won't get into the blood until gluconeogenesis occurs to synthesize glucose from the amino acids that are broken down from the protein source. The rate at which gluconeogenesis converts amino acids to glucose is comparatively a very small amount to the rate at which glycolysis breaks down carbohydrates into glucose, ultimately only causing a very small insulin response from any protein source. Now, there are amino acids that cause an insulin response before they can be converted into glucose... Although the insulin response from amino acids is monophasic, so the pancreas does not produce a secondary insulin response as it does with glucose, which is comparitively the larger release. So no, the insulin response from a protein source is not similar at all to the insulin response to "high GI" carbohydrates. Completely different in fact.

    By the way, we all have more to learn.
    /thread
    LOL, the discussion is concerning insulin secretion and amino acid absorption, and there can be a much more elevated insulin response to amino acids than you suspect, (or it appeared you suspected from you prior post, that could be wrong) that is independent of gluconeogenesis but to my knowledge all the mechanisms of are not completely clear. But it is certainly in response to specific amino acids and primarily gluconeogenic amino acids, but not a response to plasma glucose increases per se.

    Oh and yes, we all have more to learn all the time!
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  14. #14
    Registered User rand18m's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kniffmeister View Post
    Didn't have one?


    Looks like a question to me.

    Oh how unaware you are... It's apparent you do not even know what gluconeogenesis is if you think this has nothing to do with gluconeogenesis. FYI, gluconeogenesis is the synthesis of glucose from any carbon substrate other than carbohydrate substrates. In order for insulin to be secreted biphasically, as it does with carbohydrates, glucose must be detected in the blood. In a meal containing only protein, like we are describing, glucose from this meal won't get into the blood until gluconeogenesis occurs to synthesize glucose from the amino acids that are broken down from the protein source. The rate at which gluconeogenesis converts amino acids to glucose is comparatively a very small amount to the rate at which glycolysis breaks down carbohydrates into glucose, ultimately only causing a very small insulin response from any protein source. Now, there are amino acids that cause an insulin response before they can be converted into glucose... Although the insulin response from amino acids is monophasic, so the pancreas does not produce a secondary insulin response as it does with glucose, which is comparitively the larger release. So no, the insulin response from a protein source is not similar at all to the insulin response to "high GI" carbohydrates. Completely different in fact.

    By the way, we all have more to learn.
    /thread
    I must admit it's been a long time since I've read this one but here is something I believe will help, I have some others but I will have to keep looking through files.

    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/66/5/1264.long
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