Can a smith help form?

[sackamous]

Could a smith machine help with $#!+ form? I got my wife to start lifting with me, and I can't seem to get her to go down with her legs instead of a half squat and then leaning over forward with the bar. The only way I can get her to go straight down and up is to grab the bar and stop her from leaning forward with it. Would a smith teach her to do it right , or just make it worse when she goes back to free weights?

[Keetman]

It might help, but couldn't she do the same thing in a Smith? Even if not, i don't know if I'd buy a big new piece like a Smith just to teach form. If you were already wanting to get one, then why not?

Seems like showing her pictures, watching YouTube vids, have her watch you do it correctly, and lowering the weight she's using would be better.

[rlundregan]

It might help, but couldn't she do the same thing in a Smith? Even if not, i don't know if I'd buy a big new piece like a Smith just to teach form. If you were already wanting to get one, then why not?

Seems like showing her pictures, watching YouTube vids, have her watch you do it correctly, and lowering the weight she's using would be better.

Amen to this!

Why not just have her practice the form with an empty bar, then slowly add a little weight? You might also want to check out Starting Strength by Rippetoe. It has some great ideas in it, like the block of wood that he puts just in front of a student's toe. THe idea is for their knee to touch the block without knocking it over. That might be useful for your wife.

[Stasher1]

It might help, but couldn't she do the same thing in a Smith? Even if not, i don't know if I'd buy a big new piece like a Smith just to teach form. If you were already wanting to get one, then why not?

Seems like showing her pictures, watching YouTube vids, have her watch you do it correctly, and lowering the weight she's using would be better.

You may also want to try filming her doing a set of squats so she can compare her squats to a properly performed set and see exactly what you're talking about.

[matrix563]

You may also want to try filming her doing a set of squats so she can compare her squats to a properly performed set and see exactly what you're talking about.

also awesome if you have the video out to a tv so she can she in real time what she is doing wrong and adjust quickly that way

[ironwill2008]

Could a smith machine help with $#!+ form?

No.

A machine version of a free weight exercise isn't at all the same since the muscles responsible for controlling the bar are essentially taken out of the picture by the fixed path of the machine. And while this can be an advantage in some certain situations, that's not the case for a noob learning an exercise.


To get good at something, you have to actually do the 'something.'


Without seeing her Squat, it's not possible to determine what her problem might be, but for most noobs, with Squats, it's either lack of flexibility or trying to handle too much weight, or both.

I don't know what your level of experience might be, but if you can't sort out the problem yourself, post a vid from the side and a vid from front or back of her Squatting however much weight she can handle for 6-8 reps.

[cgc]

Would be a whole lot cheaper to lighten the weight, work on form, then keep adding weight.

I don't get buying a Smith for that....but, whatever.

[sackamous]

Thanks for the replys guys, ill get a video of her this weekend, out of town working right now. Unless we switch to the curl bar can't drop the weight. I'm scared she hurts her back the way she goes down and won't let her use more than the bar.

[twodog]

Could a smith machine help with $#!+ form? I got my wife to start lifting with me, and I can't seem to get her to go down with her legs instead of a half squat and then leaning over forward with the bar. The only way I can get her to go straight down and up is to grab the bar and stop her from leaning forward with it. Would a smith teach her to do it right , or just make it worse when she goes back to free weights?

Women definitely need to see it, as well as having it explained to the "why" it needs to be done properly. Explain to them that they will develop a big butt if they keep doing good mornings, lol, that usually changes things. I also found out that it was easier to keep them in ggod form when the weight got a little heavier. Working out with my daughters has taught me patience if nothing Good luck.

[cgc]

Thanks for the replys guys, ill get a video of her this weekend, out of town working right now. Unless we switch to the curl bar can't drop the weight. I'm scared she hurts her back the way she goes down and won't let her use more than the bar.

Seriously, if you're worried about her hurting herself....get either a broom handle or a piece of PVC piping. Have her practice her forum with that until she's solid, then go back to adding weight.

It's not a problem that only she has had and their are ways to correct it without putting her in a smith machine.

[rlundregan]

Seriously, if you're worried about her hurting herself....get either a broom handle or a piece of PVC piping. Have her practice her forum with that until she's solid, then go back to adding weight.

It's not a problem that only she has had and their are ways to correct it without putting her in a smith machine.

Again, I would suggest looking through Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe. He also has a lot of instructional videos on startingstrength dot com and on you tube.

[cgc]

Again, I would suggest looking through Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe. He also has a lot of instructional videos on startingstrength dot com and on you tube.

I don't think I referenced or disputed anything you said. Just gave a suggestion on how she can practice the movement with minimal weight yet something to mimic a bar.

[twodog]

I don't think I referenced or disputed anything you said. Just gave a suggestion on how she can practice the movement with minimal weight yet something to mimic a bar.

It's funny that my daughters squatted weight free with good form, then when a light bar (25lb) was put on their back the form went away. But the when the weight got a little heavier, maybe 50 lbs., the form started coming back.

[rlundregan]

I don't think I referenced or disputed anything you said. Just gave a suggestion on how she can practice the movement with minimal weight yet something to mimic a bar.

I'm sorry, I didn't intend to dispute or even respond to anything you said. I think I just hit the wrong "Reply" button, and included your comments by mistake! My bad!

[Northernmoris]

I'm sorry, I didn't intend to dispute or even respond to anything you said. I think I just hit the wrong "Reply" button, and included your comments by mistake! My bad!

Mod Neg...

[rlundregan]

Mod Neg...

What can I say...I'm surprised I don't hit the wrong button more often!

[sackamous]

Women definitely need to see it, as well as having it explained to the "why" it needs to be done properly. Explain to them that they will develop a big butt if they keep doing good mornings, lol, that usually changes things. I also found out that it was easier to keep them in ggod form when the weight got a little heavier. Working out with my daughters has taught me patience if nothing Good luck.

Seriously, if you're worried about her hurting herself....get either a broom handle or a piece of PVC piping. Have her practice her forum with that until she's solid, then go back to adding weight.

It's not a problem that only she has had and their are ways to correct it without putting her in a smith machine.

Well, I'm not worried about the weight of the bar hurting her, just figured the motion she is doing can't be good for her back. I've tried the broom stick and it got worse if anything. The only way I've been able to get her to go straight down and back up, is to leave the bar racked in front of her and make her hold on to it. I was looking at the riptoe video and he says look down, but the elite fts video so you think you can squat says look up, which should I go with?

[Keetman]

I'd guess its a muscle memory problem...but that's purely a guess. I had my wife take golf lessons a few years ago and even a year later every time she swung it looked so awkward. She ended up not really moving forward with it, but I'm certain if she had just kept at it she would have become more comfortable and seen other examples. She may not hit the ball any better (), but the swing would've looked more natural.

Try some "wall" squats. If you have a clear section of wall space, have her stand as close to the wall as she feels comfortable and just perform the squatting form with body weight. Have her do lots of reps everyday. If she practices, she should be able to comfortably do the squat with her knees and nose practically touching the wall. She won't be able to come forward, and eventually the move will become natural. When you put the bar on her back, if the muscle memory is there, she should be able to translate it into the real back squat. Tell her to force herself into the same form she's learned on the wall.

She's just going to have to learn what the proper form is and then work through the sloppiness. If she's not doing more weight than she should be, this is simply a muscle memory problem and mind issue that she should easily be able to overcome.

[ironwill2008]

I was looking at the riptoe video and he says look down, but the elite fts video so you think you can squat says look up, which should I go with?

The head should be in a 'neutral' position, neither up nor down.



Again, it sounds like you could really shorten her learning curve by simply posting a couple of vids.

[Detrus]

There is low bar and high bar squat. They're a bit different. Rippertoe teaches low bar. You probably know the high bar.

[Vermonter]

I don't know how tall she is, but what you describe makes me think that her leg placement may need adjusting.
Maybe have her try a slightly wider stance, and turn her toes out.
I'm talking very slight adjustments. If she starts with feet closer and gradually moves them out, testing different positions, eventually she should find a position that is optimal for her to have good form and prevent the over-leaning.
I'm thinking that the leaning is a balance and strength thing, it's compensation of a sort.

Everybody else has made very good points about other things to try. Light weight high reps until good form, gradual build-up, and stay with free weight so the body does the work and not some machine (which can exaggerate the problem).

IMO a smith machine should only ever be used as a hack squat type of movement, where you are leaning back against it. It's completely different than a traditional squat.

[twodog]

I don't know how tall she is, but what you describe makes me think that her leg placement may need adjusting.
Maybe have her try a slightly wider stance, and turn her toes out.
I'm talking very slight adjustments. If she starts with feet closer and gradually moves them out, testing different positions, eventually she should find a position that is optimal for her to have good form and prevent the over-leaning.
I'm thinking that the leaning is a balance and strength thing, it's compensation of a sort.

Everybody else has made very good points about other things to try. Light weight high reps until good form, gradual build-up, and stay with free weight so the body does the work and not some machine (which can exaggerate the problem).

IMO a smith machine should only ever be used as a hack squat type of movement, where you are leaning back against it. It's completely different than a traditional squat.

Hey Vermonter, it's great to see you back. I hope that all has been well as we.ve missed you in the York thread.

[sackamous]

ill get a video up this weekend in the rack, for now though we tried some suggestions this morning to work on her form. She is 4'11 ish since someone asked, tried her feet all over the place using tiny changes didn't really help. Then I made her close her eyes and walked her about a foot away from the wall of the camper told her to set her feet comfortable and do a body weight squat. She hit her face on the wall from a foot away before her legs ever moved, and nope I didn't tell her the wall was there. She was pissed and I laughed for about 20 min. When I left she was practicing with her hands on the wall and would do 2-3 okish ones and then bend over. She is trying though.

[twodog]

ill get a video up this weekend in the rack, for now though we tried some suggestions this morning to work on her form. She is 4'11 ish since someone asked, tried her feet all over the place using tiny changes didn't really help. Then I made her close her eyes and walked her about a foot away from the wall of the camper told her to set her feet comfortable and do a body weight squat. She hit her face on the wall from a foot away before her legs ever moved, and nope I didn't tell her the wall was there. She was pissed and I laughed for about 20 min. When I left she was practicing with her hands on the wall and would do 2-3 okish ones and then bend over. She is trying though.

I'm glad that she's still trying, kudo's to her.

[KBKB]

It's funny that my daughters squatted weight free with good form, then when a light bar (25lb) was put on their back the form went away. But the when the weight got a little heavier, maybe 50 lbs., the form started coming back.

I've noticed this when using various pieces of equipment too, most recently kettlebells and Indian Clubs. When a light weight is used, it's possible to lift that weight in many different ways. But, increase the weight, and the number of options for successfully moving it become more limited.

I do think it's important to try to practice good form first with lighter weight. (Injuries are bad.) I typically start out using what I think is good form with light weights, practice that for a while and then increase the weight - sometimes by a lot. When using heavier weights, good form will be essential because that'll be the only way to move the weight without risking injury. But I've noticed that - up to a point - my form usually improves when using heavier weights. (At some point it deteriorates due to the attempt to recruit other muscles to help out with something that's too heavy.) Once heavier weights are used, I find it useful to go back and try again with lighter weights. I usually find that my form has improved when using the lighter weights too.

I also think the suggestions about making a video are excellent. I've learned a lot about what I'm doing wrong by watching videos of myself.

[dac22]

I'd recommend having her try doing goblet squats with a kettlebell or a dumbbell. Having the weight out in front of you tends to force you not to lean over too far. Also, set up a box or a milk crate and have her try doing "box" squats, as this also can get her used to sitting back instead of leaning forward. One other thing to check is her flexibility, especially in the hips. Have her stretch her hip flexors, glutes, etc. to try to increase her ability to "sit back" into the squat.

Hope that helps!

[twodog]

I've noticed this when using various pieces of equipment too, most recently kettlebells and Indian Clubs. When a light weight is used, it's possible to lift that weight in many different ways. But, increase the weight, and the number of options for successfully moving it become more limited.

I do think it's important to try to practice good form first with lighter weight. (Injuries are bad.) I typically start out using what I think is good form with light weights, practice that for a while and then increase the weight - sometimes by a lot. When using heavier weights, good form will be essential because that'll be the only way to move the weight without risking injury. But I've noticed that - up to a point - my form usually improves when using heavier weights. (At some point it deteriorates due to the attempt to recruit other muscles to help out with something that's too heavy.) Once heavier weights are used, I find it useful to go back and try again with lighter weights. I usually find that my form has improved when using the lighter weights too.

I also think the suggestions about making a video are excellent. I've learned a lot about what I'm doing wrong by watching videos of myself.

It's mor ethan just weight equipment also. The first Time I took my wife out target shooting we used a 357/.38 special Ruger revolver with a 6" barrel. I loaded very light load wadcutters into the chamber and had her stand 15 ' from the target. She couldn't put a shot on the target for the first 18 shots and it frustrated me. I finally threw some .357 magnum factory loads into the gun and told her that this is what real ammo felt like. Well she took the first shot, it was loud and had a big flash and it missed. Then she hunkered down and proceeded to lay five rounds into a 4" circle. When I asked her what happened, she said that the kickback from this ammo was hard that she knew that she needed to get serious. Go figure, they are definitely a different species than we are, lol.

[Keetman]

ill get a video up this weekend in the rack, for now though we tried some suggestions this morning to work on her form. She is 4'11 ish since someone asked, tried her feet all over the place using tiny changes didn't really help. Then I made her close her eyes and walked her about a foot away from the wall of the camper told her to set her feet comfortable and do a body weight squat. She hit her face on the wall from a foot away before her legs ever moved, and nope I didn't tell her the wall was there. She was pissed and I laughed for about 20 min. When I left she was practicing with her hands on the wall and would do 2-3 okish ones and then bend over. She is trying though.

I really think the wall squats will work, so good job trying....but maybe let her do them on her own and with full knowledge the wall is there!

The point is to get the move down and feel confident with it. I don't think its possible to do the squat form incorrectly if you're tight to the wall, but don't hit it as you go down and back up. If she's not comfortable with the movement, it will be hard and awkward, but until she understands what the move feels like she'll continue to be discouraged.

She'll get this!

[sackamous]

I really think the wall squats will work, so good job trying....but maybe let her do them on her own and with full knowledge the wall is there!

The point is to get the move down and feel confident with it. I don't think its possible to do the squat form incorrectly if you're tight to the wall, but don't hit it as you go down and back up. If she's not comfortable with the movement, it will be hard and awkward, but until she understands what the move feels like she'll continue to be discouraged.

She'll get this!

I didn't tell her about the wall so she would realize how far she was bending, lol.


Had her watch a lot of videos on squat form last night. She knows what she is suppose to do, its just getting her legs to fallow her brain.

[cthulhupun]

I've had good success using the goblet squat to help my mother and girlfriend find the correct form and up their weight in the movement.