Adipokinetix alternatives?

[karina]

hi all,

now that Adipokinetix is no longer in production, can anyone suggest good alternatives... basically i am looking for an alternative to the NYC stack? is ECA stacked with Yohimbine hcl tabs a good substitute? what is the difference (in thermogenic terms) of combining yohimbine hcl with norephedrine and yohimbine hcl combined with ephedrine?

thanks

[Dante B.]

Karina

check out the post titled, "my new fat burning stack", by Manteca

Dante.........

[SLY]

Tricutts II by Scifit has very similiar ingredients as Adipo, might be worth a try?

[RippedUp]

You also have MRM's MBX.

[Todd]

SAN Hollywood Cuts is pretty much the same thing as adipo, or so the label says. Syntrax is a much more reputable company than SAN...

[karina]

thanks guys.

i thought that adipo was pulled out of production because of the fda restrictions on norephedrine. if this is so, then all the other products which contain norephedrine will be pulled off the market as well?
and if that happens, i just wanted to know what i can use in place of norephedrine, since i am impressed by the results i have been getting from adipo and other NYC stacks.

i just read Par Deus's response in the thread on "what is the difference between" and he says that you can replace synephrine for norephedrine. does anyone know anything more about this?

thanks again

[Dante B.]

Norephedrine/PPA is in short supply, so whatever is left, is whatever that is left. As well, be careful, since any time there is a substance that is in very limited quantities, it should make you wonder if the company is putting the full amount of the nutrient as stated on the label, in the prouduct, if any at all.

A comination of any good ECA stack+ Lipoderm-y would probably serve you even better that Adipo,for the fact that:

1) ECA stimulates the release of Norepinephrine (NE), whereas norephedrine does not (hence the lesser stimulation). NE stimulates the Beta receptors (1,2,3,), and therefore, mobilizes fatty acids.
2) Norephedrine primarily activates the Alpha 1 receptor, therefore restricting blood flow and suppressing the appetite. This is why, when norephedrine is taken, you are more likely to experience the effect of appetite suppression as opposed to ECA.
3) Lipoderm-Y would allow the use of high amounts of yohimbine hcl, in a site specific manner (it is transdermal). Yohimbine blocks the negative feedback mechanism initiated by NE by blocking the activation of the Alpha-2 receptor.
4) Norephedrine and yohimbine work fairly well, for the fact that norephedrine is not as much of a stimulant, and therefore, can be used in tandem wiht yohimbine without excessive stimulation. The same, however, does not hold true for ECA and yohimbine. This is why an ECA stack, in addition , to the transderaml yohimbine hcl as found in Lipoderm-Y would be better.

All said and stated, this should be MORE effective that using Adipo, for the fact that you are getting the Beta-receptor activation from the ECA, but at the same time, you are getting site specific, negative feedback disinhibition from the yohimbine hcl via the Lipoderm-Y.

[Dante B.]

Karina, did that help any? I am rather fond of Adipo myself, and I have my own private "stash" to last me for another year or so.

[karina]

thanks, dantebattista, that helped a lot

so, an ECA stacked with Yohimbine HCL (transdermal or in caps form) should be an even better thermogenic than ECA or NYC alone... i will definitely give it a try. what is a recommended dosage of yohimbine hcl to add to an ECA?

[Dante B.]

Originally posted by karina
thanks, dantebattista, that helped a lot

so, an ECA stacked with Yohimbine HCL (transdermal or in caps form) should be an even better thermogenic than ECA or NYC alone... i will definitely give it a try. what is a recommended dosage of yohimbine hcl to add to an ECA?

If you are going to take capsules, start off with a small amount at first,perhaps, 10mgs a day, divided between several dosages.

Transderamally, this is quite different, since absorbing yohimbine through your skin would allow you to take higher amounts while at the same time avoiding the excessive stimulation that often accompanies yohimbine hcl use (especially when combined with ECA).

[Dante B.]

BUMP-since this question regarding the substitution of Adipokinetix had been posted often. And again, to reiterate ( I know that I am redundant), DO NOT recommend the use of oral yohimbine hcl to be used in tandem with ECA to someone who HAS NOT used ECA before. This has been recommended several time to beginners, and this could overstimulate them if they are not certain to their stimulation tolerance. Transdermal yohimbine hcl, however, is fine ,with regards to most people to be used in tandem with ECA.

[karina]

thanks again for all the info, dante.

just 1 more small question ... does this mean that the "active fat-burning" ingredient in Adipo is the Yohimbine, and the norephedrine only helps by supressing the appetite, or is there some synergy between yohimbine and norephedrine and caffeine?

[Dante B.]

Originally posted by karina
thanks again for all the info, dante.

just 1 more small question ... does this mean that the "active fat-burning" ingredient in Adipo is the Yohimbine, and the norephedrine only helps by supressing the appetite, or is there some synergy between yohimbine and norephedrine and caffeine?

Norephedrine was asserted to be more thermogenic than ephedrine, but I have never seen any company explain as to how that may be. Stimulation of the Alpha 1 receptor may help to enhance Beta stimulation, and may enhance the suppression of the appetite, but I do not see how it can be more thermogenic than ephedrine. Par Deus is the residential scholar on this board, so perhaps he knows otherwise. But numerous companies make claims to which they do not assert their reason for doing so.There is a reason for everything, and no company , from what I have seen, ever explained the reasoning behind norephedrine ( in terms of it being more "thermogenic than ephedrine").

Yes, there is synergy between all of the ingredients in Adipo, since the combination will still stimulate NE ( to a lesser extent than ECA), and will also block the negative feedback mechanisms of Alpha-2 as well. This is why numerous men and women experienced greater reduction in stomach and hip girth than they did with ECA.

[Dante B.]

BUMP- for anyone else wondering what to do in the face of the norephedrine issue.

[Par Deus]

Alpha 1 stimulation enhances the thermogenic effect of beta 2 agonists.

It also has a positive effect on metabolism through another mechanism, which I am not at liberty to say.

[karina]

Par Deus,

what is your opinion on the ECY stack? I have read a lot of posts on MWF that stacking yohimbine with EC is not recommended because of the toll it puts on the CNS. I am also interested in what you would suggest as an alternative to Adipo. Is stacking synephrine with yohimbine hcl a viable option?

[Par Deus]

Originally posted by karina
Par Deus,

what is your opinion on the ECY stack? I have read a lot of posts on MWF that stacking yohimbine with EC is not recommended because of the toll it puts on the CNS. I am also interested in what you would suggest as an alternative to Adipo. Is stacking synephrine with yohimbine hcl a viable option?

ECY stack is potentially dangerous, but I would think, based on the physiology involved, that it would be synergistic, so it would be effective if you got the dosing down. Elzi Volk has pretty much said it is not, but she did not give a reason, and when I asked her to address why it would not be, she did not respond, so WTF knows.

I think synephrine should be a suitable replacement for norephedrine.

[WHOSYOURDADDY02]

Originally posted by dantebattista
Karina, did that help any? I am rather fond of Adipo myself, and I have my own private "stash" to last me for another year or so.

Any of those for sale?

[Dante B.]

Originally posted by WHOSYOURDADDY02


Any of those for sale?

Sorry my friend, I bought these when I found out that Adipo was done fore. Lucky for me, the health food store next do me does not sell Adipo that much (quite odd),so, that left more for me. I acutally only have 4 bottles left, so I have to find a way to dose this with ECA to spread it out. Very sorry, however.

[Dante B.]

Here are a variety of stack that you can use in lieu of Adipokinetix.
Some of the dosages are estimates based on my self-experimenation, but, as always, you can adjust dosages for individual preference. And, again, as always, if someone sees something that I may have missed, or may have misunderstood, feel free to correct me.

For simplicities sake, I am not going to include bells and whistles such as asperin, forskolin, or EGCG (green tea extract). Any of these may be added to any of the stacks, if you so choose. The following are merely stimulant combinations.

1) Classic ECA stack
a) 60 mgs ephedrine (herbal or sythetic)
b) 600 mgs caffeine (herbal or sythetic)

2) Adipo-alternative stack ( it is my guess that the reformulated Adipo,called Beta-3, will use the bitter orange alkaloid Octopamine, while keeping the caffeine and the yohimbine the same, just a guess though).
a) 60 mgs synephrine (herbal or sythetic)
b) 600 mgs caffeine
c) 18-20 mgs of yohimbine hcl (pure only- you do not want to screw around with yohimbe extracts which are not quantified and accounted for).

3) Advanced ECA stack
a) 60 mgs ephedrine (herbal or syntheitic)
b) 600 mgs caffeine (herbal or synthitic)
c) 30-60mgs synephrine (herbal or syntheic)- I have used high amounts of synephrine with ECA stacks before, with minimal disturbance in the process of doing so. However, if you are to do this, I suggest that you take a more conservative approach at first.

4) Hardcore ECA stack
a) 60mgs of ephedrine (herbal or syntheic)
b) 600 mgs of caffeine (herbal or synthetic)
c) 10-20 mgs of yohimbine hcl (pure only)
This is not a stack that you can mess around with, this is only for those those that know their tolerance to ECA itself. Add the yohimbine gradually, or if you wish, you can lower the ephedrine dose, to increase the yohimbine dose.

5) Extreme ECA stack
a) 60mgs of ephedrine (herbal or synthetic)
b) 600mgs of caffeine (herbal or syntheic)
c) 10-20 mgs of yohimbine hcl (pure)
d) 15-45 mgs of synephrine (herbal or sythetic)
As the warning above, for the hardcore stack holds true, it is even more relevant for this stack. Do not touch this, unless you are certain of your toleranc to ECA alone.


Lipoderm-Y may be added to any of the aformentioned stacks, to enchance the site-specific, Alpha -2 negative feedback disinhibition of transdermal yohimbine hcl. If you are to do this, perhaps it would be best to add it to stacks 1,2, or 3. As for stacks 4, and 5, I would wait to see the toleranc of them first, before that it is that you add something else to further your efforts.

Dante...........

[K (same)]

600mg of caffeine! I know it is only the equivalent of 3 cups of coffee. Oh well, I won't have to sleep at all! I am naturally hyper

[Dante B.]

Originally posted by K (same)
600mg of caffeine! I know it is only the equivalent of 3 cups of coffee. Oh well, I won't have to sleep at all! I am naturally hyper

You can adjust dosages of course, but the typical ECA stack has 60 mgs of ephedrine to 600mgs of caffeine. Perhaps I should have made one more stack, with the title of "The Legal ******* Explosion Stack".

[karina]

thanks again dante and Par

by the way Par, are you coming out with a new fatburner soon?

[Judd]

Just want to give you an alternative. I have only a few days of Adipo left myself. Depressing, it's a great product. But during my cutting cycle I used a chemical free product to stack w/Adipo. It's called Metabolic Thyrolean by Prolab. There isn't too much mention of it here, but as an experiement I used two bottles as mentioned with my Adipo. I'm very satisfied with this product. I will go as far to suggest it as a good stacker with any ECA. You can read more on the product and it's ingredients by clicking the link below.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/pl/meta.html

[Dante B.]

Originally posted by Judd
Just want to give you an alternative. I have only a few days of Adipo left myself. Depressing, it's a great product. But during my cutting cycle I used a chemical free product to stack w/Adipo. It's called Metabolic Thyrolean by Prolab. There isn't too much mention of it here, but as an experiement I used two bottles as mentioned with my Adipo. I'm very satisfied with this product. I will go as far to suggest it as a good stacker with any ECA. You can read more on the product and it's ingredients by clicking the link below.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/pl/meta.html

The main ingredient in Thyrolean is the guggulsterones, for which many people do not fare well with. I suppose that guggulsterones may only be of help to those among us that have taken ECA for a while, with the result of less than optimal thyroid function ( the other ingredients in Thyrolean do not seem to be in efficacious amounts).

I have heard, however, of people responding rather well to Thyrolean, but as you said, if may be better taken with an ECA stack as opposed to taking it in lieu of one.

Another suggestion, worth looking into, is Guggulbolic by Syntrax.
In terms of potency, this product has the most guggulsterones out of any product, and in terms of price, it can not be beaten.

Based on my subjective experience (and I do emphasize subjective), I did feel that I noticed a difference with Guggulbolic/guggulsterones, but I think this was mainly due to the fact that I had been on ECA for a while, and probably had compromised thyroid efficiency as a result.

[Judd]

I agree, apparently the gugglesterones that are used in the Syntrax product are a different form. I've heard of some undesirable side effects from it as well, ranging from no effect at all to a sore/swollen thyroid. I opted for the Thyrolean from a suggestion of a frined and was suprised at the results. Now I understand that the Adipo probably did most of the work. I had also considered the MM4 and Gugglebolic (sp) products. But I thought I would give the Prolab a try first. And was pleased with the results. I would say that the product alone is probably not very strong. But just to throw in as a chemical free thyroid stacker, it isn't a bad choice.

[Dante B.]

BUMP

Numerous people have been asking what to do in lieu of Adipokinetix, so lets keep this post going so the question does not have to be answered repeatedly

Also rememeber that , with the issue of the norephedrine scarcity, one should be suspicious of the numerous companies that are poping up offering alternatives to Adipo. This is not to say that some companies did not have an adequate remainder to last them through a given amount of production, it is just a thought to ensure that companies are not trying to ride on the coattails of Adipo's demise by making substandard products.

[karina]

bump from me as well... this is an interesting discussion

[bamaster]

Can someone repost the link to buy Lipoderm-Y?

Also, dantebattista...
Thanks for your time in this thread already. Great stuff! I am midway through my last bottles of Adipo/MM4. Have some TriCutsII on the way.

Would TriCutsII, MM4, and Lipoderm-Y be a nice stack?

[Manteca]

www.avantlabs.com