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  1. #1
    Registered User v8hemi's Avatar
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    Overtrained... Need Advice

    Well I recently switched to a full upper/lower body routine (4 day split, each twice a week) a few months ago. Was going great, was cutting at the time and was still maintaining/increasing my strength with certain exercises. However I took a month off my diet (probably 3 months or so into this new routine) and started eating slightly ABOVE maintenance and that's when I noticed my strength slowly declining. Tried taking a week off, came back and my strength was still declining. At this point I realized I was using way too much intensity for my 2x upper/lower per week routine and overtraining. Finally took two full weeks off and my strength is even worse. It seems like it's too late now where any more time off isn't going to help. I have now switched to a 3 day split instead since my other routine clearly wasn't working anymore and I have the tendency to apply too much intensity as if I was working a 1 body part per week routine which has always worked for me in the past.


    The new routine is as follows:

    Mon - Chest/Back
    Tues - Off
    Wed - Legs
    Thu - Off
    Fri - Delts/Bis/Tris

    My question for you guys is, should I take more time off from the gym or just continue with less workload (ie: less reps/sets/weight)?




    If you really must know the specifics, my old routine in detail was:

    Upper
    Flat Barbell Bench
    Barbell Shoulder Press
    Pull-ups
    Machine Rows
    Bicep Curls
    Tricep Cable Press

    Lower
    Leg Press
    Leg Extensions
    Lying Leg Curls
    Seated Leg Curls
    Standing Calf Raises
    Abs
    Lower Back Extensions

    That would be repeated in the fashion, Mon - Upper, Tue - Lower, Wed - Off, Thu - Upper, Fri - Lower

    And pretty much all the overtraining went to my upper body, I've actually noticed an increase in leg strength and achieved a new PR on leg presses.

    Inb4 why no squats
    Inb4 why no deadlifts

    I have a rotated disc in my lower back hence the reason I avoid these exercises
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    Registered User bmontgomery87's Avatar
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    what was your progression like for your lifts?
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    Registered User v8hemi's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 View Post
    what was your progression like for your lifts?
    I was cutting at the time so I was just maintaining strength in a 3x10 fashion, there was no progressive overload. Obviously if I had the potential I would increase by 5-10% on the last set. However for Benching and Shoulder pressing I was going to failure at every set which is probably the main culprit to my overtraining.
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    Roman Nose dday39's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by v8hemi View Post
    And pretty much all the overtraining went to my upper body, I've actually noticed an increase in leg strength and achieved a new PR on leg presses.

    Inb4 why no squats
    Inb4 why no deadlifts

    I have a rotated disc in my lower back hence the reason I avoid these exercises
    you aren't overtrained. overtraining is a condition of the CNS, not a particular body part, muscle, or muscle group

    chances are both your nutrition and training were flawed and you stalled and had no knowledge of how to break the stall
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    Gain 20 lbs
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    Registered User v8hemi's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dday39 View Post
    you aren't overtrained. overtraining is a condition of the CNS, not a particular body part, muscle, or muscle group

    chances are both your nutrition and training were flawed and you stalled and had no knowledge of how to break the stall
    If anything my nutrition improved when I noticed the strength decrease, since I was cutting for most of the time... The diet remained the same, just increased portions. While it's clear my training was flawed, after about 3 months or so, but I can't see how stalling would result in a tremendous strength decline and has not returned after 3 combined weeks off.

    I do believe in muscular overtraining and there has been quite a few topics on this board about it.
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    Rise Of The Weak Squatter GinjaNinja85's Avatar
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    ^ yeah if you were overtrained, all your lifts would go to sh!t.

    Did a specialist tell you not to squat or deadlift?
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    Registered User v8hemi's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GinjaNinja85 View Post
    ^ yeah if you were overtrained, all your lifts would go to sh!t.

    Did a specialist tell you not to squat or deadlift?
    Yes. I went through 2 months of physical therapy to re-align it but it always manages to rotate again. He said at the bottom of the motion in deadlifts, it expands the space between the discs in your back in basically makes it easier for the disc to rotate again. My lower back has been mostly pain free since I stopped deadlifting and squatting.
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    Originally Posted by dday39 View Post
    you aren't overtrained. overtraining is a condition of the CNS, not a particular body part, muscle, or muscle group
    agreed

    This is just an issue of poor progression scheme (or none) and not over-training.

    Doing the same exact sets/reps twice a week is going to lead to a pretty quick stall unless you have a solid progression scheme (such as starting with a moderate weight and slowly working to near PR weight over an extended period of time) or are entirely new to training.

    If I were you I would jump on lyle mcdonalds generic bulking routine, and opt to swap out the first two heavy lifts so you have an AB setup:

    A Day:

    Flat bench: 3-4X6-8/3′
    Row: 3-4X6-8/3′
    Incline bench or shoulder press: 2-3X10-12/2′
    Pulldown/chin: 2-3X10-12/2′
    Triceps: 1-2X12-15/1.5′
    Biceps: 1-2X12-15/1.5′

    B Day:

    Incline or shoulder Press: 3-4X6-8/3′
    Chin or Pullup: 3-4X6-8/3′
    Flat Bench: 2-3X10-12/2′
    Row: 2-3X10-12/2′
    Triceps: 1-2X12-15/1.5′
    Biceps: 1-2X12-15/1.5′

    This will limit your exposure to specific exercise+sets+reps to once a week and you should prolong the amount of time you can progress.
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    Registered User v8hemi's Avatar
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    I think everyone is missing the point where I mentioned that I was cutting for the majority of my workout. :/ Had I been consuming enough calories to allow me to progress in weights, I would, but I was maintaining strength and I rarely had the ability to increase it much. It wasn't until I actually increased calories above maintenance that I realized my strength declining. I just don't understand how a stall could result in strength loss, could you please explain it for me in more detail?
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    Rise Of The Weak Squatter GinjaNinja85's Avatar
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    The old routine doesn't look particularly bad. Perhaps alternating bench and OHP would've helped matters. Apart from that if you wasn't going over 3 sets on the exercises then I doubt you was doing too much. I'd hold off on jumping programs and actually find the reason for your stall.

    I'd deload all affected lifts 10% and slowly work back up with reduced volume. It's got nothing to do with your diet by the sounds of it.

    Edit: Also take an honest look at your lifestyle and sleep.
    Last edited by GinjaNinja85; 10-23-2012 at 01:34 PM.
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  11. #11
    Registered User v8hemi's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GinjaNinja85 View Post
    The old routine doesn't look particularly bad. Perhaps alternating bench and OHP would've helped matters. Apart from that if you wasn't going over 3 sets on the exercises then I doubt you was doing too much. I'd hold off on jumping programs and actually find the reason for your stall.

    I'd deload all affected lifts 10% and slowly work back up with reduced volume. It's got nothing to do with your diet by the sounds of it.

    Edit: Also take an honest look at your lifestyle and sleep.
    I'll be deloading (if you can call it that at this point) by more than 10%. Let me put this into perspective for you guys... My bench press went down by a total of 65lbs after 3 combined weeks off. My sleep has always been fine, 8 hours a day, not too much stress. No traumatic events occurred recently.

    Over a two month time span my bench dropped 65lbs while I physically gained 5 lbs... so I certainly was not lacking calories. If that's not the result of overtraining and is a "stall", please someone explain how a stall can cause such a dramatic drop in strength so I can prevent it in the future. I noticed my strength dropping but it wasn't until I decided to take time off, it's like my bench dropped 21 lbs for every full week I took off while I was still eating consistently (probably more than I should have since I wasn't lifting) and gaining weight.

    My bench went down 65lbs, shoulder press went down 10 lbs, I now struggle to do even one set of body weight pull-ups where I used to be able to do 3 sets 10/8/6

    It's frustrating really because I was only intending to take a month break from my cutting diet, now I feel like I'm getting fat again and want to go back to cutting but clearly that's not a choice right now. I was doing so well maintaining my strength on a cut diet, I increase calories and ironically I happen to dramatically lose strength at the same time.
    Last edited by v8hemi; 10-24-2012 at 06:19 AM.
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    Rise Of The Weak Squatter GinjaNinja85's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by v8hemi View Post
    I'll be deloading (if you can call it that at this point) by more than 10%. Let me put this into perspective for you guys... My bench press went down by a total of 65lbs after 3 combined weeks off. My sleep has always been fine, 8 hours a day, not too much stress. No traumatic events occurred recently.

    Over a two month time span my bench dropped 65lbs while I physically gained 5 lbs... so I certainly was not lacking calories. If that's not the result of overtraining and is a "stall", please someone explain how a stall can cause such a dramatic drop in strength so I can prevent it in the future. I noticed my strength dropping but it wasn't until I decided to take time off, it's like my bench dropped 21 lbs for every full week I took off while I was still eating consistently (probably more than I should have since I wasn't lifting) and gaining weight.

    My bench went down 65lbs, shoulder press went down 10 lbs, I now struggle to do even one set of body weight pull-ups where I used to be able to do 3 sets 10/8/6

    It's frustrating really because I was only intending to take a month break from my cutting diet, now I feel like I'm getting fat again and want to go back to cutting but clearly that's not a choice right now. I was doing so well maintaining my strength on a cut diet, I increase calories and ironically I happen to dramatically lose strength at the same time.
    What are your before and after lift poundages?

    Depending on how experienced you are, it's possible that you peaked and are now experiencing a temporary drop in performance. Working back up from 90% of your current training weights (make sure it is your current training weights) will probably get you back on track. Using less than 90% risks you losing more strength. Just try and work through it. And stop panicking. Your not losing strength. You've just temporarily lost the ability to display your strength if that makes sense.
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  13. #13
    Roman Nose dday39's Avatar
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    other than a loss in strength, you're showing no signs of overtraining (sleep is normal, diet is normal)

    possibly over-reaching, not overtraining
    Goals:

    1.5 bw Bench
    2.0+ bw Squat
    2.5 bw Deadlift
    Gain 20 lbs
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    Crazy Kraut ktj4l's Avatar
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    Considering you can't squat or deadlift, the exercise selection of your routine isn't bad. Don't get too worried, you aren't overtraining. Taking a week off will usually hit your strength levels a little, which is why a lot of programs prescribe deload weeks instead of taking entire weeks off at a time. The two weeks off after that to help it probably caused the rest of your "strength loss". Chances are you'll be able to quickly build up to your old strength again and surpass it, especially if you're done cutting now.

    Your main problem seems to be a plan of progression, or lack thereof. It sounds like you're doing 3x10 for most of the lifts? Why don't you turn it into a 3x6-10 or something along those lines and then do the following. For the example, we'll use a rep range of 6-10. Choose a weight you can bang out 10 reps with. Make sure this weight can be done for 10 reps without going to failure. It shouldn't be easy, but form should be perfect and bar speed should be good for the entire 10 reps. So this is the weight you'll use, but you're going to start by doing it 3x6 the first workout, 3x7 after that, 3x8, etc. until you hit 3x10 with perfect form and good bar speed. Do not go to failure. You should always be able to perform 1 or 2 reps without a spotter, if you had to... but you're gonna leave those two reps in the tank. Once you hit 3x10, increase the weight by around 5lbs (maybe a little more or less, depending on the lift) and start again at 3x6. Every 8-12 weeks (or whenever you start feeling tired all the time, have some aches and pains, etc.), take a deload week. Go in the gym for 2-3 light workouts that week. This keeps you active, but allows your body to recover. After a deload week, you will usually come back stronger.

    That would be pretty standard rep progression. You could use weight progression, but it would be more taxing and you can't even squat or deadlift, which would be two of the main components of a strength routine.
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    Registered User v8hemi's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ktj4l View Post
    Considering you can't squat or deadlift, the exercise selection of your routine isn't bad. Don't get too worried, you aren't overtraining. Taking a week off will usually hit your strength levels a little, which is why a lot of programs prescribe deload weeks instead of taking entire weeks off at a time. The two weeks off after that to help it probably caused the rest of your "strength loss". Chances are you'll be able to quickly build up to your old strength again and surpass it, especially if you're done cutting now.

    Your main problem seems to be a plan of progression, or lack thereof. It sounds like you're doing 3x10 for most of the lifts? Why don't you turn it into a 3x6-10 or something along those lines and then do the following. For the example, we'll use a rep range of 6-10. Choose a weight you can bang out 10 reps with. Make sure this weight can be done for 10 reps without going to failure. It shouldn't be easy, but form should be perfect and bar speed should be good for the entire 10 reps. So this is the weight you'll use, but you're going to start by doing it 3x6 the first workout, 3x7 after that, 3x8, etc. until you hit 3x10 with perfect form and good bar speed. Do not go to failure. You should always be able to perform 1 or 2 reps without a spotter, if you had to... but you're gonna leave those two reps in the tank. Once you hit 3x10, increase the weight by around 5lbs (maybe a little more or less, depending on the lift) and start again at 3x6. Every 8-12 weeks (or whenever you start feeling tired all the time, have some aches and pains, etc.), take a deload week. Go in the gym for 2-3 light workouts that week. This keeps you active, but allows your body to recover. After a deload week, you will usually come back stronger.

    That would be pretty standard rep progression. You could use weight progression, but it would be more taxing and you can't even squat or deadlift, which would be two of the main components of a strength routine.
    I was considering doing that. Doing 3x5, then 3x6 the following week, then 3x7 and so forth. 3x10 was just an average, of course if I could achieve 10 reps for all 3 sets I would increase the weight the following week but since I was cutting at the time, weight increase wasn't much of an option and I was under the assumption there really is no progression scheme per say when you're cutting.

    I'm experienced with progression when I'm consuming enough calories to do so. Generally I shot for 3x10 then increase the weight 10% the following week if successful. Since I was cutting I was just trying to maintain what I had which worked great. I dropped 20 lbs and maintained 90% of my strength with 0 cardio, just diet and lifting. The only time I actually lost strength during my cut is when I got strep throat, was forced to take off for a week and couldn't eat much.
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    Yeah you are not over trained.

    You do however need to look at your program(not lifts but the actual program) how you add weight to the lifts, what you need to do when a stall happens, etc.

    Since you are doing that 2x a week I'd run mon/tues as heavy days with lifts on bench and OHP in the 3x5, 5x5 range and keep everything else around 8-10 reps. Then on thur/fri I'd run everything in 12-15 rep range.

    Another way like the ktj4l pointed out is rep progression each week then add weight and start back over. When you can no longer hit your reps or add weight that's a stall and after doing this 3 consecutive workouts take 10-15% off that number and work it back up.

    Yes you can lose strength when you cut and since you lost that much you probably cut completely wrong and way to fast.
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    Originally Posted by v8hemi View Post
    Since I was cutting I was just trying to maintain what I had which worked great. I dropped 20 lbs and maintained 90% of my strength with 0 cardio, just diet and lifting. The only time I actually lost strength during my cut is when I got strep throat, was forced to take off for a week and couldn't eat much.
    How long did it take you to lose those 20 pounds?
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    Originally Posted by Jasonk282 View Post
    How long did it take you to lose those 20 pounds?
    I don't remember the time period, 5 months maybe? I made sure I kept a steady loss of 1lb/week. If you read my posts above, I can guarantee you I did not cut too quickly and cutting is not the reason for my strength loss. My strength didn't decline until I decided to take a break from cutting and actually increased calories. Which at this point I think I was overtraining/overreaching/stalling/whatever you want to call it.

    Anyone else that has any advice PLEASE read all the posts. While I appreciate the help and that's why I'm here, I feel like I'm repeating myself way too much.
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    Originally Posted by v8hemi View Post
    I don't remember the time period, 5 months maybe? I made sure I kept a steady loss of 1lb/week. If you read my posts above, I can guarantee you I did not cut too quickly and cutting is not the reason for my strength loss. My strength didn't decline until I decided to take a break from cutting and actually increased calories. Which at this point I think I was overtraining/overreaching/stalling/whatever you want to call it.
    A 10% increase each week is pretty tough to keep up with especially if you have no light days for recovery for your CNS.

    I can get 175x10 bench if I do that 2x a week then add 10% the following week...that's a 15lb increase in one week. Not even Rippetoe will approve of that. Now if you were gonna do that per cycle and use rep progression that's one thing but hitting that every week you hit 3x10 is pretty damn hard to keep up with. If you want to add weight each week I'd stick to 5lbs per week and make your 2nd workouts lighter at say 80% monday/tuesday's weight.
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    Originally Posted by Jasonk282 View Post
    A 10% increase each week is pretty tough to keep up with especially if you have no light days for recovery for your CNS.

    I can get 175x10 bench if I do that 2x a week then add 10% the following week...that's a 15lb increase in one week. Not even Rippetoe will approve of that. Now if you were gonna do that per cycle and use rep progression that's one thing but hitting that every week you hit 3x10 is pretty damn hard to keep up with. If you want to add weight each week I'd stick to 5lbs per week and make your 2nd workouts lighter at say 80% monday/tuesday's weight.
    I do agree that 10% increase on core lifts is a lot. But what about on accessory lifts? It always worked for me in the past. Especially considering when you use pin-loaded machines their weight increases can be way over 10% if you don't use the micro plates. That's where 3x10 then 10% increase next session worked the best for me.
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    Originally Posted by ktj4l View Post
    Considering you can't squat or deadlift, the exercise selection of your routine isn't bad. Don't get too worried, you aren't overtraining. Taking a week off will usually hit your strength levels a little, which is why a lot of programs prescribe deload weeks instead of taking entire weeks off at a time. The two weeks off after that to help it probably caused the rest of your "strength loss". Chances are you'll be able to quickly build up to your old strength again and surpass it, especially if you're done cutting now.

    Your main problem seems to be a plan of progression, or lack thereof. It sounds like you're doing 3x10 for most of the lifts? Why don't you turn it into a 3x6-10 or something along those lines and then do the following. For the example, we'll use a rep range of 6-10. Choose a weight you can bang out 10 reps with. Make sure this weight can be done for 10 reps without going to failure. It shouldn't be easy, but form should be perfect and bar speed should be good for the entire 10 reps. So this is the weight you'll use, but you're going to start by doing it 3x6 the first workout, 3x7 after that, 3x8, etc. until you hit 3x10 with perfect form and good bar speed. Do not go to failure. You should always be able to perform 1 or 2 reps without a spotter, if you had to... but you're gonna leave those two reps in the tank. Once you hit 3x10, increase the weight by around 5lbs (maybe a little more or less, depending on the lift) and start again at 3x6. Every 8-12 weeks (or whenever you start feeling tired all the time, have some aches and pains, etc.), take a deload week. Go in the gym for 2-3 light workouts that week. This keeps you active, but allows your body to recover. After a deload week, you will usually come back stronger.

    That would be pretty standard rep progression. You could use weight progression, but it would be more taxing and you can't even squat or deadlift, which would be two of the main components of a strength routine.
    Repped for being the only one to provide detailed information instead of broad generic advice.
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    Hey man, I would like to agree with other responses here in saying that you should target a lower rep range to break the plateau. My main routines are hybrid Max-OT style and I have yet to get into a plateau that I can't break with enough time. The idea is that for a couple months, train each body part hard with heavy weight (like around 3-5 or 4-6 reps depending on how compound the movement is) and then after those months, go back to a hypertrophy rep range and get all the gains from the heavy lifting in. Let me give you an example of, say chest routine for me: I'll start with flat bench, 3 sets of warmups and 2 sets of acclimation, then 3 sets of 4-6 reps. Now, the target rep range is about 4 or 5. If I can get 6, I will add 2.5 or 5 pounds to each side and do the next set with those. Slowly I will continue to grow. I also like to 1rm at the end, not all the time, usually just once a month and then I do a drop set right after with about 60% of the weight and rep it out. Next is inclined bench, 3 sets 4-6. Next: dips, 3 sets 4-6. Now I like to finish with strong Flys, and typically I'll aim for 6-8 reps. I feel like it's the perfect rep range to trigger growth at the same time, since it's not a compound movement, it's light enough to focus on form and not ****ing yourself up at the same time.

    I highly recommend also, once every month or so, switching the order of the routine up. Example: Flat, Incline, Dips, Flys ... try Dips, Flat, Flys, Incline. Just to confuse your muscles. When you go back to the original routine, I garauntee you your strength gains went up, and in turn, your body got bigger. Hope this helps
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    Originally Posted by DPHSeric View Post
    Hey man, I would like to agree with other responses here in saying that you should target a lower rep range to break the plateau. My main routines are hybrid Max-OT style and I have yet to get into a plateau that I can't break with enough time. The idea is that for a couple months, train each body part hard with heavy weight (like around 3-5 or 4-6 reps depending on how compound the movement is) and then after those months, go back to a hypertrophy rep range and get all the gains from the heavy lifting in. Let me give you an example of, say chest routine for me: I'll start with flat bench, 3 sets of warmups and 2 sets of acclimation, then 3 sets of 4-6 reps. Now, the target rep range is about 4 or 5. If I can get 6, I will add 2.5 or 5 pounds to each side and do the next set with those. Slowly I will continue to grow. I also like to 1rm at the end, not all the time, usually just once a month and then I do a drop set right after with about 60% of the weight and rep it out. Next is inclined bench, 3 sets 4-6. Next: dips, 3 sets 4-6. Now I like to finish with strong Flys, and typically I'll aim for 6-8 reps. I feel like it's the perfect rep range to trigger growth at the same time, since it's not a compound movement, it's light enough to focus on form and not ****ing yourself up at the same time.

    I highly recommend also, once every month or so, switching the order of the routine up. Example: Flat, Incline, Dips, Flys ... try Dips, Flat, Flys, Incline. Just to confuse your muscles. When you go back to the original routine, I garauntee you your strength gains went up, and in turn, your body got bigger. Hope this helps
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