Affirmative Action in college

[wjs010]

NPR had an interesting interview yesterday about this topic.

Although minority admission rates have gone up in colleges, the minority graduation rate has stayed the same. Those who are underqualified tend to not do well when they get accepted and drop out. He goes on to say that without AA, those moderately good students do better at less competitive schools and have a higher graduation rate there.

So it's actually more beneficial to remove AA for minorities.

Yea and those attrition rates also prove that these cry baby URM students are taking the spots of others who maybe could have graduated.

[TheBateman]

Wrong.

Convincing minorities to stop committing crimes and accumulating criminal records, which stops people from hiring them, is the best way to reverse minority poverty. Admitting them to schools that they are not qualified for does not help reduce minority poverty. If it did, minority poverty would be reduced from years of affirmative action.




It doesn't even help white women. The person bringing the lawsuit that the supreme court is deciding upon is a white woman who was denied admission to UT Austin, while less academically qualified minorities were granted admission.

rep this man for life

"The Obama administration agrees, and is backing the school, saying to grow a nation built on differing complexions and backgrounds will depend on future leaders "who possess the understanding of diversity that is necessary to govern and defend the United States.""

unbelievable
still can't believe the obamatards

[markymark69]

Say you have 2 hypothetical applicants:

They are equals in EVERY single way, work experience, languages spoken, etc, etc, etc, except one of them has a 3.8 GPA and the other has a 3.3 GPA.


How is it anything other that discrimination on the basis of race (i.e., racism) to pick the one with the 3.4 GPA over the one with the 3.8 GPA purely because of their skin colour? We're talking about college here by the way.

College = academics, your entry (is, at least in canada), and should be, based on ACADEMICS.

College = preparation for a professional career. GPA/SAT are not a predominant indicator of success.

[markymark69]

So you believe that Affirmative Action, where students are accepted on the grounds of race and others are discriminated against on the grounds of race, is the mutts nuts then?

In the case that is being argued before the supreme court race is a weighted factor, just like the alumni factor, athletic factor etc. Its absolutely no different than the hiring process after you graduate from college: Your acceptance to the position will be based on many factors...the least significant factor is your GPA.

Bottom line: GPA/SAT scores are not merit based admissions. They are arbitrary figures used by lazy admission officers.

[BoneSkinny]

College = preparation for a professional career. GPA/SAT are not a predominant indicator of success.

You need a strong academic background and experience in order to achieve a degree.

Although a high GPA doesn't directly translate into work performance, it does correlate well with the ability to pass classes. Even with a great work ethic and managerial skills, you cannot get into pharmacy/medicine/law/engineering without a solid GPA because they are not qualified to do so.

GPA does not really matter for work, but it does for school. They are completely different.

[markymark69]

You need a strong academic background and experience in order to achieve a degree.

Although a high GPA doesn't directly translate into work performance, it does correlate well with the ability to pass classes. Even with a great work ethic and managerial skills, you cannot get into pharmacy/medicine/law/engineering without a solid GPA because they are not qualified to do so.

I attended UF's computer engineering program and I graduated from HS with a 2.1 gpa. I graduated from college with honors. If GPA were the predominant and determinant factor of success in college then college applications would be one page with one line: GPA_______


Question: Why did you go to college? I know why I went: To get a job as an engineer. UF did an exceptional job at preparing me for a professional career. Almost every single upper level class I took involved team based projects, learning to work with significantly different backgrounds, presentations and written communication. This directly translated to skill sets needed in my professional career. Each class had maybe 2-4 exams if that. 40-60% of your grade was determined by your group project or team labs.

This is why most college applications require written essays, on campus interviews, references, etc. They want to learn about the person that is going to contribute to their college for the next 4yrs. College is not all about academics and taking exams.

[BoneSkinny]

I attended UF's computer engineering program and I graduated from HS with a 2.1 gpa. I graduated from college with honors. If GPA were the predominant and determinant factor of success in college then college applications would be one page with one line: GPA_______


Question: Why did you go to college? I know why I went: To get a job as an engineer. UF did an exceptional job at preparing me for a professional career. Almost every single upper level class I took involved team based projects, learning to work with significantly different backgrounds, presentations and written communication. This directly translated to skill sets needed in my professional career. Each class had maybe 2-4 exams if that. 40-60% of your grade was determined by your group project or team labs.

This is why most college applications require written essays, on campus interviews, references, etc. They want to learn about the person that is going to contribute to their college for the next 4yrs. College is not all about academics and taking exams.

I agree there is more than GPA. However, GPA is very important.

[markymark69]

I agree there is more than GPA. However, GPA is very important.

What other factors are important? Athletic ability?

[tsbalr120]

What other factors are important? Athletic ability?

Standardized test scores
Leadership experience
Activity in school programs
Ect

[wjs010]

What other factors are important? Athletic ability?

Right. It shouldn't be just gpa or gre. It could be a whole host of things. However, race should not be involved. Diversity of thought and innovative idea know no skin color or ethnic background

[datsallfolks]

Bottom line: GPA/SAT scores are not merit based admissions. They are arbitrary figures used by lazy admission officers.

notsure if srs

GPA shows work ethic and SAT shows some level of reasoing skills and it is highly correlated with intelligence. Its ridiculous to say them mean nothing.

heres what i think, low GPA and SAT shows you are lazy, stupid or both. High GPA and SAT shows that you at least work hard and might be genuinely smart

[markymark69]

notsure if srs

GPA shows work ethic and SAT shows some level of reasoing skills and it is highly correlated with intelligence. Its ridiculous to say them mean nothing.

heres what i think, low GPA and SAT shows you are lazy, stupid or both. High GPA and SAT shows that you at least work hard and might be genuinely smart

So if a student in HS takes all AP classes and has a 2.9 GPA, yet another student in the same HS takes basic classes and has a 4.0 GPA. The 2.9GPA AP student is lazier than the 4.0 student?

This is becoming comical.

[markymark69]

Right. It shouldn't be just gpa or gre. It could be a whole host of things. However, race should not be involved.

But its ok to consider athletic ability?
Is it ok to consider alumni status?

[markymark69]

Leadership experience
Activity in school programs
Ect

Those are not merit based considerations. If the applicant were living on their own (i did my senior year) and had to work, they would have time to participate in school based extracurricular activities.

[GALICKGUNVEGETA]

So if a student in HS takes all AP classes and has a 2.9 GPA, yet another student in the same HS takes basic classes and has a 4.0 GPA. The 2.9GPA AP student is lazier than the 4.0 student?

This is becoming comical.

Obviously the fact that the 2.9 gpa student is taking APs would speak more about their work ethic than a student who takes the easy road just to achieve a high GPA. In a difficult school, gpa is an indicator of hard work. You stated that you got an A in physics by sleeping through class to imply you could get a high gpa putting forth no effort; yet then you mentioned you received a 2.1 cumulative gpa. Sorry? SATs are at least somewhat of an indicator of scholastic aptitude. Obviously neither is ideal, but to say that both are irrelevant is just silly.

[markymark69]

Obviously the fact that the 2.9 gpa student is taking APs would speak more about their work ethic than a student who takes the easy road just to achieve a high GPA. In a difficult school, gpa is an indicator of hard work.

How do you determine what is a 'difficult' school?

You stated that you got an A in physics by sleeping through class to imply you could get a high gpa putting forth no effort; yet then you mentioned you received a 2.1 cumulative gpa. Sorry? SATs are at least somewhat of an indicator of scholastic aptitude. Obviously neither is ideal, but to say that both are irrelevant is just silly.

I made A/B's in all my math and science classes. The rest of my classes were boring and I didnt apply myself.

I am not saying they are irrelevant, just one factor.

People in this thread have stated time and again: College admission should be merit based only. People with the highest GPA/SAT should be admitted before someone with lower scores. That premise is fundamentally flawed. Using that logic the 4.0 student would gain entrance over the 2.9 AP student. This is a relatively common example faced by college administrators.

[BFast55]

AA College: "You're too dumb to compete because you're black/female, we'll let you get into our college because we are more marketable when we have more diversity."

[tsbalr120]

Using that logic the 4.0 student would gain entrance over the 2.9 AP student. This is a relatively common example faced by college administrators.

Well yes, AP classes are inflated by 1 point for a reason, to cushion the scores of kids who struggle some. If an AP student has a 2.9 in AP, that means they made D's. So it wouldn't be wrong to assume a 4.0 in normal classes worked harder than a 2.9 in ap.

[AlphaAlbert]

But its ok to consider athletic ability?
Is it ok to consider alumni status?

If 20% of black male population in Baltimore is in jail, should we catch Asians and Whites on the street and put them in jail to reach quotas of 20% of each race?

[KRANE]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/08/us/sco...t=hp_inthenews


I have mixed feelings about this.

On one hand I believe the students with the best grades should be amitted, regardless of race or any factors. The fact that a student gets in with a worse resume than another just because they are a minority is unfair in my opinion.

On the other hand,

Poverty rates is skewed greatly with mostly minorities. To help this problem the main option is to get more minorites into higher education. Affirmative Action helps with this.


What do you guys think?

As do I, that is when they both start equally. However, when you artificially hold back the progress of one group for sever hundred years all of the pretense of fairness goes out the window. If that status que advantage were to continue unadjusted, it would take 1000 years to balance on its own. That assumes that we've presently achieved a level of total equality. Which we have not. In high school my education was pretty equal to any of the other kids. Not so at the college level.

If 20% of black male population in Baltimore is in jail, should we catch Asians and Whites on the street and put them in jail to reach quotas of 20% of each race?

Absolutely. Blacks don't commit crimes at any greater rate than anyone else. They simply are convicted more.

Now ask yourself this, if you were accused of a crime would you feel like you were receiving justice in an all black run court where the judge was black, the jury was black, the bailiff was black and everyone around you in the court room was black? Would you agree those on the jury were a jury of your peers? Would you feel confident that you would get a fair impartial verdict?

[kate00]

Why is it that affirmative action is bad, but legacy admissions is acceptable? Neither recruits based on merit.

[flairon]

So if a student in HS takes all AP classes and has a 2.9 GPA, yet another student in the same HS takes basic classes and has a 4.0 GPA. The 2.9GPA AP student is lazier than the 4.0 student?

This is becoming comical.

Nope..but if that's your best, your best wont do.

[kate00]

People in this thread have stated time and again: College admission should be merit based only. People with the highest GPA/SAT should be admitted before someone with lower scores. That premise is fundamentally flawed. Using that logic the 4.0 student would gain entrance over the 2.9 AP student. This is a relatively common example faced by college administrators.

That's how university admissions work in Sweden, all you do is go to a website and fill in which courses and programs you want to apply to at which universities no interviews or written applications whatsoever, then the spots are handed out based on either highest GPA or SAT scores. It doesn't take into account whether the courses you took in HS were hard or easy, but different programs have different prerequisite courses.

[BigBeard86]

Affirmative Action is the worst crock of **** ever. The true reason behind it is to avoid racism, but it does so buy subjugating everyone else. I hate it when people defend it. my parents came here as immigrants, broke, didnt know english. no one ****ing helped them, and no one helped me. why should i lose my position to someone else that is not as qualified as i, just because he is black, spanish, etc? ****ing load of ****, i hope they do away with it.

[Rangerz91]

Dumb sloot cries because she can't get into UT because her grades suck ass. Files lawsuit against AA. Seems legit

[bcop]

Dumb sloot cries because she can't get into UT because her grades suck ass. Files lawsuit against AA. Seems legit

Swing and a miss.

Smart young woman cries because she can't get into UT, but many urban youths with worse grades can get in. Files lawsuit against AA. Seems legit.

[Spartacus777]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/08/us/sco...t=hp_inthenews


I have mixed feelings about this.

On one hand I believe the students with the best grades should be amitted, regardless of race or any factors. The fact that a student gets in with a worse resume than another just because they are a minority is unfair in my opinion.

On the other hand,

Poverty rates is skewed greatly with mostly minorities. To help this problem the main option is to get more minorites into higher education. Affirmative Action helps with this.


What do you guys think?

You can't treat people as blocks of ethnic groups. You should treat them as individuals, with the color of their skin or their accent as irrelevant details. You can't fight discrimination with discrimination.

Actually had a small debate on this in one of my classes. Everyone but one other kid was like "affirmative action is great! You just have to do it without being discriminatory". Dafuq? By definition it is discriminatory. I tried to explain this and they just couldn't follow the logic, my brain was ready to explode.

[notorius1]

[ To help this problem the main option is to get more minorites into higher education. Affirmative Action helps with this.

Screw your affirmative action. I'm not white nor rich and yet I know for a fact I do not need your goddamn handout. End that shyt right now!

[ICrapBig]

Blacks don't commit crimes at any greater rate than anyone else. They simply are convicted more.

Oh, I thought they were commiting more crime because of poverty and a lack of opportunity.

So its just plain old fashioned racism then?

Wow

[SpartanTraining]

AA on poverty is 100x more direct to the problem than A.A. on race

Princeton study showed POOR, DISADVANTAGED, WHITES get absolutely screwed on a.a. because they only count once (poor) rather than twice (poor, minority)

AA on poverty would help eliminate socioeconomic disadvantage without giving random races advantage


anecdotal: i go to notre dame. MOST of the african americans here are absolutely rich and come from excellent backgrounds, private schools, etc. .... really rustles my jimmies that they would get in here because of their race when they have had even better opportunities than i have