Skinny-Fat Why You Should Clean Bulk (video)

[bmorebirds86]

All of that is covered in the stickies and in my other videos if you don't want to read the stickies and just want someone to spoon feed you the data while listening.




You think you are going to gain much muscle on a low carb diet? Hit 1 lbs of protein per pound of bw, .45g of fat per lbs of body weight and fill the majority of your remaining calories with carbs. Carbs are, generally speaking, slightly more anabolic than fat for a number of reasons once enough dietary fat has been consumed to reach essential needs and maintain hormone production. Think in terms of numbers not aribitrary words like low and high.

Cardio is optional... the only bodybuilding or health benefits to cardio for someone already lifting heavy several days a week are 1) improved conditioning and stamina 2) allowing you to eat more calories while reaching the same goal (this one is huge for me personally), however weight training should take both an effort and time priority over your cardio. The body will adapt most to its primary form of training stimulus and cardio isn't going to add muscle to a weight lifter. Do the minimum amount of cardio you need to reach your goals for 1 & 2 above, but don't go over that minimum by much.

So if I'm going to start doing a clean bulk, do I eat at 10-15% over BMR everyday, or just workout days?

[JasonDB]

So if I'm going to start doing a clean bulk, do I eat at 10-15% over BMR everyday, or just workout days?

All days. Will you not need the calories to grow on your off days also? Will the additional glycogen stores from the carbs the day before not be useful in your next session? Furthermore human digestion doesn't work on a 24 hour cycle... you are still absorbing protein, fat and some nutrients from a large mean up to 48-72 hours after you consume it... granted you absorb most of if within 24 hours but not all of it.

Lol the name of his youtube is "Ice cream Fitness" You think he has issues with "clean and dirty" food? :P

It could mean low fat, sugar-free ice cream. LoL

Maybe he just screams about fitness

Although that's probably unlikely since screaming his essay-type posts would be way too hard on the throat.

Kidding of course, Jason.

My wallsoftext are famous.

[pyaarawala]

Would I fall under this skinny fat category as well? 5'11 172 lbs ~22% bf. I've been bulking on SS for a while now gaining about 1 lb/week (sometimes more). Not sure exactly till what weight I should bulk to before I lose all this excess fat I have.

[JasonDB]

Lol the name of his youtube is "Ice cream Fitness" You think he has issues with "clean and dirty" food? :P

Would I fall under this skinny fat category as well? 5'11 172 lbs ~22% bf. I've been bulking on SS for a while now gaining about 1 lb/week (sometimes more). Not sure exactly till what weight I should bulk to before I lose all this excess fat I have.

No you are just getting fat from fulking... get your calories back in check and clean bulk from here anyway. SS, including the nutrition protocols, are designed for football players and starting strength athletes, not people who are pursuing an aesthetic physique.

[pyaarawala]

No you are just getting fat from fulking... get your calories back in check and clean bulk from here anyway. SS, including the nutrition protocols, are designed for football players and starting strength athletes, not people who are pursuing an aesthetic physique.

Well the thing is I want an aesthetic physique, but I also want to be really strong in the gym. I want to put up 1/2/3/4 on OHP/BP/SQ/DL because it's badass and I play basketball so having strength helps with my performance and especially vertical. But I also want to look really good (Gregg Plitt, for example). I've been on SS for 14 weeks now, and still haven't met my strength goals but have made decent gains. Do you think I should move to allpro's beginner routine then if my end goal is aesthetics + strength?

And the reason I was aiming for 1 lb/week is because I'm afraid any less will hurt my strength gains.

[JasonDB]

Well the thing is I want an aesthetic physique, but I also want to be really strong in the gym. I want to put up 1/2/3/4 on OHP/BP/SQ/DL because it's badass and I play basketball so having strength helps with my performance and especially vertical. But I also want to look really good (Gregg Plitt, for example). I've been on SS for 14 weeks now, and still haven't met my strength goals but have made decent gains. Do you think I should move to allpro's beginner routine then if my end goal is aesthetics + strength?

And the reason I was aiming for 1 lb/week is because I'm afraid any less will hurt my strength gains.

I have a novice 5x5 with arm work etc in it in the stickies of the WP forum, it is a video like this one, with accompanying videos breaking down some of the lifts further. You could switch to that if you are in pursuit of aesthetics but still have strength goals to reach as well.

[bmorebirds86]

I am just skinny, not skinny fat. Not lean, but probably about 13-15% body fat at 5'10" 145 pounds. I have been making strength gains but am going to try clean bulk as you suggest, 10-15% over maintenance. What macros do you suggest? I typically eat at least 1g/lb protein, and high fat, macros probably 20c/35p/45f.

[JasonDB]

I am just skinny, not skinny fat. Not lean, but probably about 13-15% body fat at 5'10" 145 pounds. I have been making strength gains but am going to try clean bulk as you suggest, 10-15% over maintenance. What macros do you suggest? I typically eat at least 1g/lb protein, and high fat, macros probably 20c/35p/45f.

I said in the clean bulk vs dirty bulk video, which I linked in this video... that you (meaning someone just skinny and decently lean) need to dirty bulk, also called fulking, meaning over 20% surplus. Start at 20% surplus and evaluate every few weeks. No go for 1g of protein and .45g of fat minimum per lbs of body weight and fill remaining calories to your preference with a bias towards carbs and drop the percentages/ratios... they are pointless/useless/complex.

[Jeremy-D]

Is there any issue with too much fat and not enough carbs while bulking? Say if I went .55 gr fat per # and cut back a little on carbs?

[JasonDB]

Is there any issue with too much fat and not enough carbs while bulking? Say if I went .55 gr fat per # and cut back a little on carbs?

The difference in results would be minimal... although the arguement could be made, and I've heard Alan Aragon make this point also, that dietary fat in a surplus is slightly more prone to storage than excess carbs, but again we are not talking about an extreme amount of difference here... and promote less muscle growth once the minimums are reached for basic nutrition, metabolic function, hormone production etc. While carbs continue to produce more anabolic hormones and glycogen stores for training on even at a very large surplus. You'll just get less benefit out of going much above recommendations on dietary fat in terms of muscle gain.

[bmorebirds86]

[QUOTE=JasonDB;965556303]I said in the clean bulk vs dirty bulk video, which I linked in this video... that you (meaning someone just skinny and decently lean) need to dirty bulk, also called fulking, meaning over 20% surplus. Start at 20% surplus and evaluate every few weeks. No go for 1g of protein and .45g of fat minimum per lbs of body weight and fill remaining calories to your preference with a bias towards carbs and drop the percentages/ratios... they are pointless/useless/complex.

OK- thanks for the advice. I am going to try this. Going way over in the fat department won't harm potential muscle growth, will it? I typically get 100-150g of fat a day from cooking with coconut oil, eating fattier cuts of meat, eggs/bacon daily, etc.

So let me get this straight- as long as I'm getting a minimum of 1g/lb protein and .45g/lb fat (I'm closer to 1.0 on this), then fill in the rest with whatever until I hit 20%+ my maintenance calories (which for me would be ~2650)?

[bmorebirds86]

Ahhh.. I see the above post is relevant to my question.

[JaredPunch]

Sorry but it's impossible to gain 20lbs of muscle while staying the same body fat
On average and even for beginners on a very clean bulk, the fat gain and muscle growth ratio is 1:1, it's physiological
When they say that beginners can lose fat and gain muscles at the same time, they mean that even on a caloric deficit
they can use body fat calories to fuel muscle growth. They never mean that you can lose fat even if you're on a caloric surplus,
that's impossible.

It takes more than a year to build 20lbs of pure muscles and with that at least a 18-20lbs of fat gain is to be expected
In that year someone 15% body fat would probably end up 20% body fat. Been there, seen that even on people on just 300 calories surplus.

The truth about skinny-fat is that you can't fix in your body in one stage.
You can't cut and expect to fix skinny-fat or bulk and expect to fix skinny-fat
You must go through both stages.
If you bulk first then you will look fatter and will look decent only after a cut
If you cut first then you will look skinny and will look decent only after a bulk
Which is why waiting one year or more to gain X amount of muscles is not a good idea
and neither is a steady long bulk or cut. Skinny fat people should keep alternating short bulk phases with short cut phases
taking advantage of efficient fat burning the first month of cutting and taking advantage of efficient muscle growth the first month of bulking.

If you bulk when your body fat is relatively high, and 15-16% is already high enough
your body is primed to gain fat easier than muscles. That's because nutrients partitioning to muscles
is more efficient when body fat levels are low.

As Lyle McDonald would say, someone with 15-16% body fat should first cut to get to 12%
That wouldn't take much time and won't catabolize muscles since body fat is still high enough
Also, even if one is the less muscled person on earth, 12% body fat is not low enough to look emaciated or skeleton.
After the first cutting phase (losing its efficiency as time goes by) the skinny-fat person should switch to a clean bulk phase
not for 1 year or 6 months or whatever but till his body fat is still closer to 15% but at least he will be more muscular.
Then it's time to throw in a cut phase. When the guy will be 12% again he will also be more muscular and defined than the previous time.
And so on

I have seen lot of skinny-fat people failing with the bulk first approach or even worse with a long steady bulk hoping to gain
X amount of pounds of muscles without getting fatter (like 5-6% more body fat) In fact true skinny-fat people rarely solve their problem
They keep steady cutting and end up 10% bf and flabbier than ever or they keep steady bulking and end up 20% bf and looking as soft as ever and eventually give up and stay skinny-fat for life. Alternating between stages is the only thing that truly works.

I'm pretty sure Alan agrees that someone with 15-16% body fat should cut first, without trying to get lean, just losing some
excessive body fat to start a bulk when he is 11-12%. So it wasn't Alan to sticky this I think

[JasonDB]

I never said they would not need to cut, but their cut will go a lot smoother after gaining 15 lbs of muscle and massively improving nutrient partitioning and workload tolerance. I'll ask Alan to clarify as he is a friend of mine as you threw his name in the thread, but I think he would agree that this rule on body fat does not apply to someone with no appreciable muscle mass who is a true skinny fat.

Furthermore yes it is possible for a novice lifter to gain 15 lbs of muscle, which is generally what I have advised, gaining 20 lbs for them on a clean bulk will have some additional water weight gain that is not tissue gain, in less than one year without any BF% fat gain, which will actually improve their body composition by 1-2%. Someone who has been training consistently for a year, ok you have a point and I will agree with Lyle and Alan on that point, as they are both individuals whose knowledge I respect.

In fact one of the skinny guys in the Nutrition Misc Transformation Challenge I competed in this summer put on 16 lbs during the summer, 3 month contest, although he was pretty underweight and lean after recovering from an ED otherwise that much muscle in that time frame would have been impossible but it shows how having very little LBM can allow for rapid gains, and actually looked leaner 16 lbs heavier.

[bmorebirds86]

Am I really skinny fat at 5'10" 145? I think I have decent strength numbers for a noob, I can bench more than my body weight and do 13 pull ups.

My longterm goal is to only be about 160 and lean. Don't want to ever be huge and bulky, just have good strength numbers realative to my size and look good naked.

I've been lifting hard and meticulous about my diet, and I've lost about 20-25 pounds of fat since april of 2012 (was truely skinny fat at 170 and no strength) and am afraid of losing progress in the mirror.

If I keep eating at maintenance or slightly above, will I still progress over time, albeit more slowly? I was told by a personal trainer at a gym to lift 3 days a week and do interval cardio another three days a week (currently zero cardio), which sounds a lot like adrenal fatigue to me.

[JasonDB]

Am I really skinny fat at 5'10" 145? I think I have decent strength numbers for a noob, I can bench more than my body weight and do 13 pull ups.

My longterm goal is to only be about 160 and lean. Don't want to ever be huge and bulky, just have good strength numbers realative to my size and look good naked.

I've been lifting hard and meticulous about my diet, and I've lost about 20-25 pounds of fat since april of 2012 (was truely skinny fat at 170 and no strength) and am afraid of losing progress in the mirror.

If I keep eating at maintenance or slightly above, will I still progress over time, albeit more slowly? I was told by a personal trainer at a gym to lift 3 days a week and do interval cardio another three days a week (currently zero cardio), which sounds a lot like adrenal fatigue to me.

I would not be doing 3 interval sessions a week, or even more than about 0-1 such sessions, if I was seeking to gain muscle and strength relatively quickly.

Slightly above you are more likely to progress. Most people fail their attempts at recomps and eating at maintence to recomp and often end up exactally where they started 6 months into their recomp.

[bmorebirds86]

I would not be doing 3 interval sessions a week, or even more than about 0-1 such sessions, if I was seeking to gain muscle and strength relatively quickly.

Slightly above you are more likely to progress. Most people fail their attempts at recomps and eating at maintence to recomp and often end up exactally where they started 6 months into their recomp.

Would you say this is because people are lazy, unmotivated, don't do it right; or because it doesn't work?

[JasonDB]

Would you say this is because people are lazy, unmotivated, don't do it right; or because it doesn't work?

Lack of knowledge, lack of drive and the fact that it is more difficult than bulking or cutting for the most part. It is a slower process and sometimes 2-3x as slow. Meaning if someone were to bulk then cut they could probably gain twice as much muscle and be at the same bodyfat at the end of a year than if they just recomped for a year, for the vast majority. Again this is assuming a non-noob. In some cases it is so slow due to lack of enough training fuel, particularly carbs, to consistently push past plateus, ultimately leading to individuals randomly changing things out of frustration and never getting true progressive overload consisten enough to grow on. So they end up with maintence level calories without muscle growth and this ultimately leads to no real fat loss either. Most people who attempt recomps end up with the same physique with very little or no changes months down the road accordingly. It can be done, it is just slow and difficult.

[JelaniTheGreat]

Super informative!

[JasonDB]

Super informative!

Thank you. I have dozens of videos on other topics if you are interested.

[crazymofo01]

videos are very helpful, thank you.

now my goals are purely aesthetics, i could care less about strength or bragging rights. my ideal physique would be lean/ripped brad pitt fight club style, basically a physique women generally like.

i am skinny fat. i cut down and dropped some fat and have been clean bulking since, eating a bit over maintenance. i still have some fat though, primarily love handles. what routine would be best geared towards my goals? also should i continue clean bulking or go dirty a bit and then cut?

[JasonDB]

videos are very helpful, thank you.

now my goals are purely aesthetics, i could care less about strength or bragging rights. my ideal physique would be lean/ripped brad pitt fight club style, basically a physique women generally like.

i am skinny fat. i cut down and dropped some fat and have been clean bulking since, eating a bit over maintenance. i still have some fat though, primarily love handles. what routine would be best geared towards my goals? also should i continue clean bulking or go dirty a bit and then cut?

Clean bulk until you are sure that you have the amount of muscle mass you will be happy with for awhile, then use the new muscle mass and improved metabolic rate from it to help you cut down to your desired body fat.

[crazymofo01]

Clean bulk until you are sure that you have the amount of muscle mass you will be happy with for awhile, then use the new muscle mass and improved metabolic rate from it to help you cut down to your desired body fat.

what time of routine should i be on? if aesthetics are my only concern. and what rep range should i go for, 3-5, 8-12, both?

[saylee559]

this is a good video, thanks for the awesome info.

[JasonDB]

what time of routine should i be on? if aesthetics are my only concern. and what rep range should i go for, 3-5, 8-12, both?

I have a novice bodybuilder routine in the stickies in the WP forum.

this is a good video, thanks for the awesome info.

Thank you, and you are welcome. :-)

[crazymofo01]

[QUOTE=JasonDB;968684693]I have a novice bodybuilder routine in the stickies in the WP forum.


thanks i am checking it out. if my focus is more aesthetics and not strength is there anything i should tweek/alter with the routine?

[JasonDB]

[QUOTE=crazymofo01;968772733]

I have a novice bodybuilder routine in the stickies in the WP forum.


thanks i am checking it out. if my focus is more aesthetics and not strength is there anything i should tweek/alter with the routine?

Do you think you would build any appreciable amount of muscle mass or density bench pressing 95 lbs on your work sets? Powerlifting isn't going to yield aesthetics but hypertrophy and strength cannot be disconnected. That program is a bodybuilder program, not a true strength program, it has a large strength element but this is done in order to improve muscle growth which is required for aesthetics.

[crazymofo01]

[QUOTE=JasonDB;968774433]

Do you think you would build any appreciable amount of muscle mass or density bench pressing 95 lbs on your work sets? Powerlifting isn't going to yield aesthetics but hypertrophy and strength cannot be disconnected. That program is a bodybuilder program, not a true strength program, it has a large strength element but this is done in order to improve muscle growth which is required for aesthetics.

gotcha. will give it a try starting next week.

[Wierdo23]

[QUOTE=crazymofo01;968786193]

gotcha. will give it a try starting next week.

Same here mate.
My maintance calories are 3250 that means i will add 300-400 more and i will see how it goes.Thank you!

[Kuanti]

Thanks for the video! I'm pretty much the poster boy for skinny-fat (see profile) and was confused about how to manage the bulking/cutting. I recently started bulking (All Pro's routine) and was going to begin HIIT on my off-days starting tomorrow, but will take your advice and leave that for at least a little while.