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  1. #91
    Registered User fittofattofit's Avatar
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    Good work on the squatting and SLDLs Dru.
    Interesting thoughts from ID --- I agree that the 'money' lifts for building mass and functional strength are the big compound lifts. Heavy lifting requires speed and coordination and it's hard to work in a high rep range without risking form and injury. Squats and SLDLs/RDLs are great lifts
    Isolation work is where you need to get the MMC happening and you'll know you've got it when you get that 'pump' and 'burn'. That's really about Time Under Tension --- not necessarily about higher reps but maybe slower reps or pausing or increasing the ROM or all of the above. There are lots of ways to increase the TUT but they will usually mean dropping the weights to get the MMC

    The exercise selection above is good
    I'd say go heavy on the squats and SLDLs, go for lower weights, higher reps and squeezing out the reps on the curls and extensions, and go for really slow, deep calf raises. Just my opinion, but you'll enjoy playing around with exercises and rep ranges/tempo to find out what suits you!
    "Better to wear out than rust out!"

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  2. #92
    Meathead drudixon's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Yea....I only do the progression (reps and sets) on the main compounds. (first few exercises in the bunch)

    With the "finishing" stuff and iso, I stick with standard 10-12 (or more) rep scheme. I have found trying to push really heavy weight on single joint movements almost always leads to aches and pains...or worse.

    The latter stuff is icing on the cake. You can focus MMC if you want...etc.

    You put the max efforts into those main compounds and then give yourself a small break with the iso work. Also....doing the progression on all, makes for VERY long workouts when the 5x5 period comes in.

    Here is the part from Kelly's article addressing this point:






    I bolded some parts....let me know if you get the concept.

    ID
    Thanks a ton ID. You put a lot of time into that. It's really appreciated. I'll change it back up today. Since I have single joint bicep exercises, should they just be burn out? Straight bar curls tend to be my "bicep mass builder", so should I follow progression on that, and use the zottman's for the burn out? Also, yesterday's workout, barring a 30 minute conference call, clocked in at 3:21. Less sets will definitely speed things up. I'll be working out in about 30 mins or so, so I'll fix it again.

    Originally Posted by lunchbreak View Post
    Watching this with interest Dru. The setup reminds me of Lyle McDonald's Generic Bulking Routine but with the extra rep periodisation on the compounds. It was something I tried too early and plan to revisit after wringing out as much strength gains from a beginner and intermediate 5x5 routine as I can.
    Very glad to have you. I've had a ton of success with Bill Starr 5x5. I was stronger right after that than I am now, albeit with crappy form. My only beef with 5x5's is I don't gain much size with them, so I tend to rotate them in and out. My goal atm is to get this program just right and just run it perpetually, perhaps changing a thing or two here and there.

    Originally Posted by fittofattofit View Post
    Good work on the squatting and SLDLs Dru.
    Interesting thoughts from ID --- I agree that the 'money' lifts for building mass and functional strength are the big compound lifts. Heavy lifting requires speed and coordination and it's hard to work in a high rep range without risking form and injury. Squats and SLDLs/RDLs are great lifts
    Isolation work is where you need to get the MMC happening and you'll know you've got it when you get that 'pump' and 'burn'. That's really about Time Under Tension --- not necessarily about higher reps but maybe slower reps or pausing or increasing the ROM or all of the above. There are lots of ways to increase the TUT but they will usually mean dropping the weights to get the MMC

    The exercise selection above is good
    I'd say go heavy on the squats and SLDLs, go for lower weights, higher reps and squeezing out the reps on the curls and extensions, and go for really slow, deep calf raises. Just my opinion, but you'll enjoy playing around with exercises and rep ranges/tempo to find out what suits you!
    Great points Andrew. Thanks for weighing in. I've never given the mmc type lifts enough time to work, so shame on me for not using them more. I'll take y'alls' (yes that's a word damnit, you get reps for life if you become the first Aussie ever to use the word y'all with regularity) advice and mix those in now. I'll play with the spreadsheet.

    I should note, I added 100mg dhea to the vitamin stack and while I don't think it's really helping size / strength, my energy levels are slightly better. I'm napping less, which is a good thing. My next physio I'm going to see about androgel or something. My size is progressing IMO pretty nice, so it's more for well being I think. Curious what y'all think of dhea.
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  3. #93
    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    Dru

    To give you some idea....THE MOST a workout takes me is about 1:20min....maybe 1:30 if I am taking my time. This would be a Friday when it goes to 5x5 and I throw in a bunch of pump work.

    I personally do not like going very heavy (5-6 reps)on single joint movements. I find it stresses joints too much for me. As fitt said, use MMC and create the TUT with rep speed, or drop sets...etc. Those movements are great ones to just really feel.

    Save the progression and "heavy sets" for your compounds. Believe it or not, most of my arm work all comes from heavy compounds. Same with my shoulders. I do not do endless exercises trying to "hit" each muscle in isolation. I think you will be surprised how much stimulation you can get out of compounds. The benefit is....your workouts are more efficient too. You dont spend endless time working each part individually.

    I dont think you should have to be in the gym 3+ hrs....that is not sustainable (at least for me).

    Again, I can only share what I have done. If you like working out that long....by all means.
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  4. #94
    shrinking lunchbreak's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by drudixon View Post
    Very glad to have you. I've had a ton of success with Bill Starr 5x5. I was stronger right after that than I am now, albeit with crappy form. My only beef with 5x5's is I don't gain much size with them, so I tend to rotate them in and out. My goal atm is to get this program just right and just run it perpetually, perhaps changing a thing or two here and there.
    True, but at least it keeps the clothing costs down. The article linked by ID also seemed to suggest that the strength athlete could swap training style and get the size in relatively short order so I'm not too fussed by just chasing strength for now and your history should stand you in good stead. The reason I'm interested in this kind of setup that you are applying is the long term intermediate to advanced potential and the more balanced mix of power and aesthetic training. I'm curious, what differences to the protocol will you make when it comes time to diet?
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  5. #95
    Registered User Payton1221's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Leg ext can be very tough on the knees....
    ID, does this include single leg leg-extensions? I've heard the same thing but always assumed that it referred to double leg extensions, because it forces one or both legs to extend in a slightly un-natural position.

    I like your comments on the higher rep isolation exercises, and I really like Kelly's comments on the 90/10 philosphy on what's really driving growth.

    Dru, regarding your barbell curls mass-building comment, I would say "to have 36 year wrists again"
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  6. #96
    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lunchbreak View Post
    True, but at least it keeps the clothing costs down. The article linked by ID also seemed to suggest that the strength athlete could swap training style and get the size in relatively short order so I'm not too fussed by just chasing strength for now and your history should stand you in good stead. The reason I'm interested in this kind of setup that you are applying is the long term intermediate to advanced potential and the more balanced mix of power and aesthetic training. I'm curious, what differences to the protocol will you make when it comes time to diet?
    Just my take on it....but to me it is as simple as my sig:

    How your body adapts to that training stimulus, (gaining mass, strength or both) will be primarily determined by the quality and QUANTITY of your nutrition.

    Eat at a mild surplus and lift heavy stuff.

    To give you an idea on the impact of cals on strength, 3 full weeks into cutting and my bench has dropped 50lbs. (srs). The QUANTITY (cals and macros) of food will have a MUCH bigger impact on progression then reps and sets. People are so resistant to these ideas because they are too lazy to get their nutrition in order....but yet will get all fired up to lift weights. Diet is not sexy or fun...but you can not understate it's importance.

    But just look at any successful guy on here. They may preach different programs, (high vol, low volume....high reps, low reps, 6day splits, 3day splits...etc)....but the one commonality will be almost all PLAN AND TRACK their nutrition and eat a higher protein diet with controlled calorie goals. Why people dont want to see this?...... Maybe it is too simple?...
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  7. #97
    Registered User polishedball's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by drudixon View Post
    Curious what y'all think of dhea.
    Tried it long ago, never noticed a difference and decided i'd rather not take anything to skew my body's natural balance.

    When i note a loss of strength or my mood swings get worse, i'll get my T levels done again and if needed take proper treatment.
    My journal, not detailed, but heck I never keep track of much anyhow. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=121196291&p=863931421#post863931421

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  8. #98
    Meathead drudixon's Avatar
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    Today's workout. Tried to use the feedback I've gotten here to tweak it agian. This first mesocycle will certainly have a lot of changes while I get it down. I was sore as hell! Even my neck was sore. I think that was from the hang cleans. At any rate, doms actually feel a lot better now.

    Military Press
    105 x 6
    105 x 6
    105 x 6
    105 x 6
    105 x 6

    Straight bar curls
    100 x 6
    100 x 6
    100 x 6
    100 x 6
    100 x 6

    CGBP
    150 x 6
    150 x 6
    150 x 6
    150 x 6
    150 x 6

    Arnold Press (slow, tight form, squeeze, 30 seconds between set one and two)
    20 x 15
    20 x 12

    Zottman Curls (same concept as the Arnold Press, slow, squeeze like crazy... owwww....)
    20 x 15
    20 x 15

    Dips (After seeing Taf's dip vids, I tried to go for as many dips as I could. I really thought even doing these last I'd get 35+, so I'm very disappointed with 27.)
    Reckon I'll toss in the o35 pics thread to try and get a dip rivalry with Taf going (or anyone else who hops in)

    bw x 27

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  9. #99
    Registered User Payton1221's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by drudixon View Post
    Straight bar curls
    100 x 6
    100 x 6
    100 x 6
    100 x 6
    100 x 6
    Been a while since I've done these, but this looks excellent!
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  10. #100
    Meathead drudixon's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Payton1221 View Post
    Been a while since I've done these, but this looks excellent!
    Thanks Mark. I'm pricing out some ez curl bars now, but the really are a lot easier, so I'm not sure if that's the route I want to go. I also need to look up what the difference is between curling straight, or ez.
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  11. #101
    Not afraid of food! EB68's Avatar
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    Nice work Dru. I like the EZ-bar for curls, but have been trying to alternate between the two each session just to hit the biceps from two different angles. The EZ-bar is easier on my right wrist which suffered seven broken bones in it some years ago. If you were a little closer I would bring you mine and let you try it out for a couple of weeks.
    Eric

    PR's
    squat 335x1
    benchpress 245x1
    DB Benchpress 100'sx6
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  12. #102
    Meathead drudixon's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by EB68 View Post
    Nice work Dru. I like the EZ-bar for curls, but have been trying to alternate between the two each session just to hit the biceps from two different angles. The EZ-bar is easier on my right wrist which suffered seven broken bones in it some years ago. If you were a little closer I would bring you mine and let you try it out for a couple of weeks.
    Thx eric. I'll confess i need to google where chatsworth is.

    Just looked it up. About 1:20 mins away?
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  13. #103
    Not afraid of food! EB68's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by drudixon View Post
    Thx eric. I'll confess i need to google where chatsworth is.

    Just looked it up. About 1:20 mins away?
    Yep, up here in the mountains.
    Eric

    PR's
    squat 335x1
    benchpress 245x1
    DB Benchpress 100'sx6
    Bent over rows 245x8
    deadlifts 445x1
    Military press 130x6
    Chin-ups BW+100x2
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  14. #104
    Registered User fittofattofit's Avatar
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    27 dips after militaries, close grips and Arnolds look pretty good to me!
    Those were all deep and with good tempo, and that was at 190lbs.
    Great work Dru!
    "Better to wear out than rust out!"

    Jane Fonda helped me to rediscover my core. ..... thanks for that Ken :rolleyes:

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  15. #105
    Registered User fittofattofit's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Just my take on it....but to me it is as simple as my sig:

    How your body adapts to that training stimulus, (gaining mass, strength or both) will be primarily determined by the quality and QUANTITY of your nutrition.

    Eat at a mild surplus and lift heavy stuff.

    To give you an idea on the impact of cals on strength, 3 full weeks into cutting and my bench has dropped 50lbs. (srs). The QUANTITY (cals and macros) of food will have a MUCH bigger impact on progression then reps and sets. People are so resistant to these ideas because they are too lazy to get their nutrition in order....but yet will get all fired up to lift weights. Diet is not sexy or fun...but you can not understate it's importance.

    But just look at any successful guy on here. They may preach different programs, (high vol, low volume....high reps, low reps, 6day splits, 3day splits...etc)....but the one commonality will be almost all PLAN AND TRACK their nutrition and eat a higher protein diet with controlled calorie goals. Why people dont want to see this?...... Maybe it is too simple?...
    ^^^^^^^
    Wise words! There is nothing more anabolic than food!
    "Better to wear out than rust out!"

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  16. #106
    Meathead drudixon's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by polishedball View Post
    Tried it long ago, never noticed a difference and decided i'd rather not take anything to skew my body's natural balance.

    When i note a loss of strength or my mood swings get worse, i'll get my T levels done again and if needed take proper treatment.
    Thanks PB. Have you taken any treatments? If so, which?

    Originally Posted by EB68 View Post
    Yep, up here in the mountains.
    Beautiful up there. Years ago I had bad biking accident in Mountaintown. Just beware people with no chin's and short stubby fingers right?

    Originally Posted by fittofattofit View Post
    27 dips after militaries, close grips and Arnolds look pretty good to me!
    Those were all deep and with good tempo, and that was at 190lbs.
    Great work Dru!
    Thanks Andrew! I may take a day and do them first and see how many I can do. When I do them deep and slow, it's a lot deeper than what I did there, that's why I was kinda peeved. I went a little too fast I think.

    Originally Posted by fittofattofit View Post
    ^^^^^^^
    Wise words! There is nothing more anabolic than PIZZA!
    FIXED...
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  17. #107
    Meathead drudixon's Avatar
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    Today's an off-day, so I decided to do a tad bit of grip/forearm work. Did 2 3 exercise supersets. Will do some stretching and foam rolling shortly.

    Wrist Curl
    20 20
    2 25lb plate holds
    10s 10s
    Dead Hang
    20s


    Wrist Curl
    20 20
    2 25lb plate holds
    10s 10s
    Dead Hang
    20s
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  18. #108
    Registered User Payton1221's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by drudixon View Post
    Wrist Curl
    Leaving no stone unturned

    This and your calf raises makes me feel guilty
    "It's the road, not the Inn." Cervantes in Don Quixote
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  19. #109
    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Payton1221 View Post
    Leaving no stone unturned

    This and your calf raises makes me feel guilty

    Me too.

    I have never done any forearm work. I was thinking the other day that I might start to do some on off days. I dont think they are lacking in any way, but I have gone to using versa-gripps so much they are not getting worked like they used to.
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  20. #110
    shrinking lunchbreak's Avatar
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    I've seen some of the guys at the gym use a rod with a rope attached to a hanging plate, the object being to hold the rod in both hands and roll it so the rope coils on to it lifting the plate. Haven't tried it myself but looks tough on the wrists.
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  21. #111
    Meathead drudixon's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Payton1221 View Post
    Leaving no stone unturned

    This and your calf raises makes me feel guilty
    Ha,well, we'll see if the forearm work sticks or not. I'm not real happy with my forearms, if they were stronger then it'd probably help some of my primary lifts.

    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Me too.

    I have never done any forearm work. I was thinking the other day that I might start to do some on off days. I dont think they are lacking in any way, but I have gone to using versa-gripps so much they are not getting worked like they used to.
    Your forearms are way bigger than mine. If I want to stay "even" then I probably need to do them.

    Guess I should add, I started attempting some human flags as well. Just messing around really. Finally found a comfortable hand position, so today, with knees tucked close, I was able to do a quasi-flag for about 1second, lol. It was ugly as hell, but I'll keep on 'em. Seeing CMoore do them is cool as hell, so I may as well copycat.

    I'll have to look up what versa grips are. I have no idea, tho I've read about a lot of different people using them.
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  22. #112
    Meathead drudixon's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lunchbreak View Post
    I've seen some of the guys at the gym use a rod with a rope attached to a hanging plate, the object being to hold the rod in both hands and roll it so the rope coils on to it lifting the plate. Haven't tried it myself but looks tough on the wrists.
    Ya, they do work very well. I used to have one, but have since lost it. I did get one of those squeeze things, where each finger is on a spring, but it's useless. At the toughest strength they have, I can hold it forever - odd since my grip blows...
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  23. #113
    Meathead drudixon's Avatar
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    Deadlift day.

    Kinda weird. Never really got off the ground energy wise. I was a tad crampy too, but I think I owe that to the 3 beers I had yesterday without enough water. I plan to try some flags again later, along with some planks to work on the supporting muscles for the flags. Did last week +5lbs on each lift.

    140 x 10
    140 x 10
    230 x 8
    230 x 8
    280 x 6
    280 x 6
    320 x 4
    320 x 4
    370 x 2
    390 x 1
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  24. #114
    Meathead drudixon's Avatar
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    After a few rest days which consisted of some plants and getting better at human flags, yesterday was Week 4 of medium reps. I'm still debating on changing the rep scheme next pass to 15, 10, 5 with a goal of 30 reps each workout. We'll see though after the deload. Of course I could always rotate the 15, 10, 5 scheme with the current 10, 6, 4 scheme.

    Yesterday's workout was abbreviated due to playing a round of golf and watching football in the afternoon. I'm pretty sore today, and because of the program's 90/10 rule, I don't feel compelled to make up the "pump" exercises.

    Bench +5
    210 x 6
    210 x 6
    210 x 6
    210 x 6
    210 x 6

    Pendlay Rows +5
    175 x 6
    175 x 6
    175 x 6
    175 x 6
    175 x 6

    Incline Press +5
    175 x 6
    175 x 6
    175 x 6
    175 x 6
    175 x 6
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  25. #115
    Registered User polishedball's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by drudixon View Post
    Thanks PB. Have you taken any treatments? If so, which?
    Nope nothing yet, though planning on getting my numbers checked at next physical..
    My journal, not detailed, but heck I never keep track of much anyhow. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=121196291&p=863931421#post863931421

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  26. #116
    Registered User polishedball's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by drudixon View Post
    Deadlift day.

    Kinda weird. Never really got off the ground energy wise. I was a tad crampy too, but I think I owe that to the 3 beers I had yesterday without enough water. I plan to try some flags again later, along with some planks to work on the supporting muscles for the flags. Did last week +5lbs on each lift.

    140 x 10
    140 x 10
    230 x 8
    230 x 8
    280 x 6
    280 x 6
    320 x 4
    320 x 4
    370 x 2
    390 x 1
    ^^^ that is some great pulls^^^
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  27. #117
    Registered User Payton1221's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by drudixon View Post
    Yesterday's workout was abbreviated due to playing a round of golf and watching football in the afternoon. I'm pretty sore today, and because of the program's 90/10 rule, I don't feel compelled to make up the "pump" exercises.
    I'm located a few hundred miles to the North of you, and yesterday was freakishly warm! I'm assuming that it was 80 or so when you played golf which is great for this time of year.

    What's the 90/10 rule, and how will you be rotating rep ranges (every so often? when you can't progress?)?

    That's a great looking workout: 15 sets of serious chest/back exercises!
    "It's the road, not the Inn." Cervantes in Don Quixote
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  28. #118
    Meathead drudixon's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Payton1221 View Post
    I'm located a few hundred miles to the North of you, and yesterday was freakishly warm! I'm assuming that it was 80 or so when you played golf which is great for this time of year.

    What's the 90/10 rule, and how will you be rotating rep ranges (every so often? when you can't progress?)?

    That's a great looking workout: 15 sets of serious chest/back exercises!
    Every 2 weeks it changes no matter what. Weeks 7 , 8 are deload, then the cycle repeats. 2 weeks of each rep range for the core lifts. 90% of the results I get will be from the 3 core exercises each workout (big compounds). Each workout has some finishing moves 2 sets of 15 of an isolation type exercise.
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  29. #119
    Meathead drudixon's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by polishedball View Post
    ^^^ that is some great pulls^^^
    Thanks pb. Hoping to keep it going.
    Drudixon's See No Evil, Hear No Evil - Aesthetics Acquisition Log

    My randomly dicking around in a gym thread

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=148073193&p=947161783

    O35 Official Deadlift Competition
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=153300191
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  30. #120
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    Leg Day. Felt great. Decided to try and ratchet up squat strength, so I'm going wider and below parallel. Forgot how much easier squatting is this way. Reckon I'll do it this way till I pass 300, then maybe switch it up, or not.

    Squats low bar wide stance
    210 x 6
    210 x 6
    210 x 6
    210 x 6
    210 x 6

    SLDL (need to work on getting weight to floor every time w/o rounding)
    210 x 6
    210 x 6
    210 x 6
    210 x 6
    210 x 6

    Single Leg Leg Press on Smith
    165 x 6
    165 x 6
    165 x 6
    165 x 6
    165 x 6

    Leg Curls (30s rest)
    70 x 15
    70 x 11

    Single Leg Leg Extensions (30s rest)
    70 x 15
    70 x 15

    Single leg Calf raises on Smith
    165 x 15
    165 x 15
    Drudixon's See No Evil, Hear No Evil - Aesthetics Acquisition Log

    My randomly dicking around in a gym thread

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=148073193&p=947161783

    O35 Official Deadlift Competition
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=153300191
    Reply With Quote

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