My Novice 5x5 For Bodybuilders.

[d3votion]

Im not sure what it is your trying to get at here to be honest. Your first comments are still confusing me

"There is a point where a beginner cannot sustain this type of workout. You guys are advocating the more is better philosophy and are saying its the sure fire way and all I can say to that is good luck you you guys once you max out on newb gains... This program will actually begin to hold you back.
" -- No one argued against the fact that linear progression lasts forever, so idk what the point of this statement was

"Yeah, because listening to your body with signs of ovetraining is not manly, right? LOL, it's people like you that visit snap city." --Nobody said ignore overtraining signs. What is said though, is that when signs start to rear, you deload. And as well, reaching overtraining is not inhrantly a terrible thing when handled correctly


"Not everyone can handle the progression of working out 3 times a week. Especially if you're older and have already made lots of gains. You're still light and young. Wait until you get your LBM up a bit and get more towards 30." --This is the one that struck a cord. Essentialy you stated because of my age and LBM amount, this somehow attributes to being able to handle high frequency. So if i was 30years of age, and had more muscle mass, i should reduce frequency to grow/progress? I dont think so"




^Take a closer look at how things have been the past few weeks. Again, from the symptoms you described, something needs to be catered to.

My first point was in reply to when you said "I said what i said to address the feelings of being slightly tired and a little sore (Basically when an individual is just being a wuss)"
I was just stating that it's the people that jump to conclusion and automatically think someone is just being a wuss because they are claiming overtraining that get me upset. It wasn't directed towards you but to those people that do that.

My last comment about the age and progression was more so talking about when that person is no longer considered beginner. I was wrong about the age...I shouldn't have said that. What I was trying to get at was though there will be a point where this program isn't beneficial anymore and an intermediate or a variation of progression for the 5x5 will be better as the progression will be too fast for someone that already has a higher LBM.

BTW I want to say thanks for you throwing back information to me. You're actually taking the time to help me find my problem. Much appreciated.

[MrSlippery]

Cool, I appreciate it. So I'm assuming that for cable crunches and hyperextensions that the 2-5 lb increase per workout are exceptions?

Well the accessory lifts in general don't need to follow the same progression and or you can micro load (2.5lbs or less) them instead. Its the 5x5 lifts you want to make sure to add 5lbs each workout.

I am currently only increasing weight on skulls, curls and goodmornings (in place of hypers) once a week as I will end up failing and resetting over and over again. And am only increasing by 2.5lbs per week as my curls are weak at 60lbs and skulls at 45lbs haha.

[Charlie581]

My first point was in reply to when you said "I said what i said to address the feelings of being slightly tired and a little sore (Basically when an individual is just being a wuss)"
I was just stating that it's the people that jump to conclusion and automatically think someone is just being a wuss because they are claiming overtraining that get me upset. It wasn't directed towards you but to those people that do that.
Agreed. What i thought you has said though is that there is fault with this routine because you are experiencing a plateau and decrease in performance/recovery, and stating switching to a different routine = better results. <--correct me if this is not your thoughts.

My last comment about the age and progression was more so talking about when that person is no longer considered beginner. I was wrong about the age...I shouldn't have said that. What I was trying to get at was though there will be a point where this program isn't beneficial anymore and an intermediate or a variation of progression for the 5x5 will be better as the progression will be too fast for someone that already has a higher LBM.
It's not the the lifts themselves are what cause stalling for those further along with progression, its the constant addition of weight linearly that reaches a limit. 5x5 is a GREAT style of programing, if you look into intermediate/advanced 5x5 routines they are similar in terms of exercises, but the progression is done through periodization and undulation etc... to manipulate workload/intensity. But, it is still done with HIGH frequency. Switching to PPL will not cause some sort of magical new amount of gains, if anything in "most" cases it will probably bring less (i've never really seen a well developed PPL with any progression scheme)

BTW I want to say thanks for you throwing back information to me. You're actually taking the time to help me find my problem. Much appreciated.
Just trying to get you too take a more precise look at what it is that is causing the symptoms. I Apologize for getting temperamental.

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[makeitright]

Well the accessory lifts in general don't need to follow the same progression and or you can micro load (2.5lbs or less) them instead. Its the 5x5 lifts you want to make sure to add 5lbs each workout.

I am currently only increasing weight on skulls, curls and goodmornings (in place of hypers) once a week as I will end up failing and resetting over and over again. And am only increasing by 2.5lbs per week as my curls are weak at 60lbs and skulls at 45lbs haha.

Looks like I'm going to need to pick up some micro plates eventually. Those curls can be a pain to progress on, I know the feel!

[d3votion]

Agreed. What i thought you has said though is that there is fault with this routine because you are experiencing a plateau and decrease in performance/recovery, and stating switching to a different routine = better results. <--correct me if this is not your thoughts. I should be clear. I have not hit a plateau in my training. I can still add weight to the bar but it's my overall performance outside of the gym that is holding me back. Now, I'm sure I'm very very close to a plateau but haven't hit it yet. I only thought of switching to a different routine because I feel like my CNS can no longer handle the freq and progression of this variation of 5x5.

It's not the the lifts themselves are what cause stalling, its the constant addition of weight linearly. 5x5 is a GREAT style of programing, if you look into intermediate/advanced 5x5 routines they are similar in terms of exercises, but the progression is done through periodization and undulation etc... to manipulate workload/intensity. But, it is still done with HIGH frequency.
No doubt it is a great style. I have not said that it wasn't and it has gotten me great gains. I just feel that this specific program is too taxing on my CNS at this point. Perhaps there are remedies for me to take to help with that, I don't know yet. I was expecting my complete break from weight lifting to help but it didn't. Thats why I feel the way I do.

"Just trying to get you too take a more precise look at what it is that is causing the symptoms." I Apologize for getting temperamental. No worries man. It's hard to effectively get points across on a forum. I think everyone could agree that communication through face to face is a lot more effective...

...

[Charlie581]

...

Ahhh ok i understand you position better now lol

Yes this routine is high in volume, and most people can adapt to it, but you are also correct. There are people that will find it difficult to keep up with frequency. I was unsure wether you were hastily jumping to conclusions or not, but i think you may just be one of the individuals who will require a different routine.

I will say though, that most PPL's are sloppily thrown together and have poor/no progression scheme, so if you really want to do one, you will have to search pretty hard (I personally have never seen one meeting the ^ points, and as well i've never seen one developed for anyone who isn't considerably advanced, due to PPL's are mostly intended for individuals who are at the stage of training where 4-5lbs of mass gain a year is about the best they can hope for naturally.)

I would suggest a routine with more structure to it and done by an individual with some more experience. Nothing really "terrible" about going to a intermediate routine early, it will just probably mean slower progression (Because intermediate do not have the ability to progress rapidly anymore)


Maybe try Strong-Lifts even, it's essentially the same w/o the accessory work. You could try it and slowly add in a few accessory's to acclimate better to the volume perhaps. And as well take a look at the points i addressed earlier regarding your symptoms.

[d3votion]

Ahhh ok i understand you position better now lol

Yes this routine is high in volume, and most people can adapt to it, but you are also correct. There are people that will find it difficult to keep up with frequency. I was unsure wether you were hastily jumping to conclusions or not, but i think you may just be one of the individuals who will require a different routine.

I will say though, that most PPL's are sloppily thrown together and have poor/no progression scheme, so if you really want to do one, you will have to search pretty hard (I personally have never seen one meeting the ^ points, and as well i've never seen one developed for anyone who isn't considerably advanced, due to PPL's are mostly intended for individuals who are at the stage of training where 4-5lbs of mass gain a year is about the best they can hope for naturally.)

I would suggest a routine with more structure to it and done by an individual with some more experience. Nothing really "terrible" about going to a intermediate routine early, it will just probably mean slower progression (Because intermediate do not have the ability to progress rapidly anymore)


Maybe try Strong-Lifts even, it's essentially the same w/o the accessory work. You could try it and slowly add in a few accessory's to acclimate better to the volume perhaps. And as well take a look at the points i addressed earlier regarding your symptoms.

What about Lyle McDonalds bulking routine? I was thinking about trying his PPL twice a week. He even stated if the volume is too much, scale back on sets. His program seems legit and I'll get to hit muscles twice a week still.

There will be a time when I try to come back to ICF 5x5. I just need a break from it now. The next time I come back to it, I'll know for sure whether it's for me or not.

[Charlie581]

What about Lyle McDonalds bulking routine? I was thinking about trying his PPL twice a week. He even stated if the volume is too much, scale back on sets. His program seems legit and I'll get to hit muscles twice a week still.

There will be a time when I try to come back to ICF 5x5. I just need a break from it now. The next time I come back to it, I'll know for sure whether it's for me or not.

Lyle's routine is Upper/Lower not PPL

http://www.jcdfitness.com/wp-content...outine_FAQ.pdf

[d3votion]

Lyle's routine is Upper/Lower not PPL

http://www.jcdfitness.com/wp-content...outine_FAQ.pdf

Ahh crap, that's right. I just looked at it briefly last night as Litres recommended it. What do you think of the program though?

[Charlie581]

Ahh crap, that's right. I just looked at it briefly last night as Litres recommended it. What do you think of the program though?

Well put together (Lyle maybe be an *******, but the guys a genius), and the link (Which is the FAQ) covers just about any question about it. Personally i encourage something more frequent but in this case this might be good for you.

Also if someone can't do a lot of time in the gym and doesn't want AllPro's or SL this is a good alternative.

[d3votion]

One more thing out of curiosity. People on ICF 5x5, are they considered novice by lifting below a certain amount on their 1rm or what they lift for the routine? For example: If I lift 190 on bench for the 5x5 am i considered a beginner or is it if I bench below 250(for example) on 1rm that I'm considered a beginner?

[Charlie581]

One more thing out of curiosity. People on ICF 5x5, are they considered novice by lifting below a certain amount on their 1rm or what they lift for the routine? For example: If I lift 190 on bench for the 5x5 am i considered a beginner or is it if I bench below 250(for example) on 1rm that I'm considered a beginner?

If you can't get...

Bench: 225lbs
Squat: 315lbs
Deadlift: 405lbs

All for *reps* then most likely one is still considered novice. In reality, although these numbers seem like a lot to the average person, they (for the most part) do not require intermediate/advanced levels of strength to be able to get those numbers, and the average person can get to these numbers through linear progression (again, for the majority of people. Considerably short individuals can get away with less. And when i say considerable short, i mean like 5'5'' height and shorter)


190 for 5x5 is not "beginner," but more along the lines of a rank novice still. Basically it means an individual is nearing the end of being able to squeeze out linear periodization and will soon require different workload patterns.

[d3votion]

If you can't get...

Bench: 225lbs
Squat: 315lbs
Deadlift: 405lbs

All for *reps* then most likely one is still considered novice. In reality, although these numbers seem like a lot to the average person, they (for the most part) do not require intermediate/advanced levels of strength to be able to get those numbers, and the average person can get to these numbers through linear progression (again, for the majority of people. Considerably short individuals can get away with less. And when i say considerable short, i mean like 5'5'' height and shorter)


190 for 5x5 is not "beginner," but more along the lines of a rank novice still. Basically it means an individual is nearing the end of being able to squeeze out linear periodization and will soon require different workload patterns.

Cool man, thanks for the knowledge. Repped.

[Charlie581]

Cool man, thanks for the knowledge. Repped.

Thosse numbers dont "necessarily" need to be hit exactly, but before switching to more advanced training principles, one should at least be very close to them. Like if you were at 215 bench or like a 300 squat (again, for reps) you could probably get away with it for example.

May have taken awhile to get to the point of understanding, but at least it happened at all lol

Were all gonna make it brah

[d3votion]

Thosse numbers dont "necessarily" need to be hit exactly, but before switching to more advanced training principles, one should at least be very close to them. Like if you were at 215 bench or like a 300 squat (again, for reps) you could probably get away with it for example.

May have taken awhile to get to the point of understanding, but at least it happened at all lol

Were all gonna make it brah

I was curious because I was still making good gains. Just unfortunate my nervous system gave out. I benched (for reps) 190, squated 255, and deadlift 250. Deadlift lagged behind significantly because it took a while to get form down and I kept the weight low until I got the proper form. I know I could slap on a bunch of weight if I really wanted to but that doesn't seem very smart imo. So it remained low but was steadily increasing.

I should do some serious re-evaluating, maybe throw out a little of the accessory work and attempt to continue ICF 5x5 for a little longer after a proper deload.

[Charlie581]

I was curious because I was still making good gains. Just unfortunate my nervous system gave out. I benched (for reps) 190, squated 255, and deadlift 250. Deadlift lagged behind significantly because it took a while to get form down and I kept the weight low until I got the proper form. I know I could slap on a bunch of weight if I really wanted to but that doesn't seem very smart imo. So it remained low but was steadily increasing.

I should do some serious re-evaluating, maybe throw out a little of the accessory work and attempt to continue ICF 5x5 for a little longer after a proper deload.

Again check your macros, hydration, sleep, stressors, really anything you think that could be negatively affecting you (Not even just pertaining to gym performance, but effecting your daily life in general)

And good luck man, hope things get better!

[bonsai14]

No just follow reset protocol of 10% if you have to reset twice than take a week deload. No need to start over, which lifts are you stuck at?

pretty much all my lifts! been stuck at 225 squat for 2-3weeks and 240deadlift for 3 weeks and 155 bench for 3 weeks and 105 OP for 3 weeks

[d3votion]

Again check your macros, hydration, sleep, stressors, really anything you think that could be negatively affecting you (Not even just pertaining to gym performance, but effecting your daily life in general)

And good luck man, hope things get better!

Thanks, me too!

[BuffMaltese]

I'm noticing I'm having trouble progressing workout to workout in the sense that I just feel stronger or weaker on random days of the week. One day ill be doing 180 row then 4 days later I can hardly move it and have to move the weight to like 170. Tues I did 205 for squats and today I felt super weak (worst workout yet) and had to do 185. I just forced it before but I'm wondering if some common sense variable training is a good idea. I guess I've sort of been doing it already to some extent because mainly on a weaker day I can't keep my form. Idk. Another thing, I was feeling really strong a few workouts ago and I'm pretty sure I could of squated 225 but didn't try. If I'm going to variable train I guess it should go both ways.

[PKSebben]

I'm noticing I'm having trouble progressing workout to workout in the sense that I just feel stronger or weaker on random days of the week. One day ill be doing 180 row then 4 days later I can hardly move it and have to move the weight to like 170. Tues I did 205 for squats and today I felt super weak (worst workout yet) and had to do 185. I just forced it before but I'm wondering if some common sense variable training is a good idea. I guess I've sort of been doing it already to some extent because mainly on a weaker day I can't keep my form. Idk. Another thing, I was feeling really strong a few workouts ago and I'm pretty sure I could of squated 225 but didn't try. If I'm going to variable train I guess it should go both ways.

are you eating enough and getting enough sleep? i find that if my nutrition or sleep is lacking then my lifts really suffer

[BuffMaltese]

are you eating enough and getting enough sleep? i find that if my nutrition or sleep is lacking then my lifts really suffer

Last night I went to bed later than normal and I was a bit tired. I'm trying to be on a caloric deficit for the last three weeks now but I l'm losing weight very slowly. Lost about 3 lbs

[Stev05]

Last night at the gym I was doing bench with my buddy, and this very overweight young guy (probably 270lbs and looked like a high schooler) and some very small, young girl came up to the bench next to me. He put 45s on both sides without clips and had her go around and spot him. I watched him take his first rep and his left arm lagged way behind his right, and the plate slid like 2 inches, but he locked it out. I thought he realized the plate slid that much and was going to rack it, but instead he took it down for another rep. At this point I got up and started walking to him because I knew what was about to happen. I was saying "hey man, you're losing that plate", but before I could stop him he attempted the rep again. This time the plate slid off completely, whipping the bar, the other plate and him right off the right side of the bench. The sound of this 270lber and the 45lb bar and plate loudly crashing to the floor stopped the whole gym and everyone just stared at him. He immediately sprung up, completely befuddled and said, "What happened?? Did you push me?!" to me... I had to explain to him that, no, I didn't push a random guy I'd never met before off the bench while he was bench pressing. He and the girl quickly left the gym after that.

[Charlie581]

Last night at the gym I was doing bench with my buddy, and this very overweight young guy (probably 270lbs and looked like a high schooler) and some very small, young girl came up to the bench next to me. He put 45s on both sides without clips and had her go around and spot him. I watched him take his first rep and his left arm lagged way behind his right, and the plate slid like 2 inches, but he locked it out. I thought he realized the plate slid that much and was going to rack it, but instead he took it down for another rep. At this point I got up and started walking to him because I knew what was about to happen. I was saying "hey man, you're losing that plate", but before I could stop him he attempted the rep again. This time the plate slid off completely, whipping the bar and him right off the right side of the bench. The sound of this 270lber and the 45lb plate loudly crashing to the floor stopped the whole gym and everyone just stared at him. He immediately sprung up, completely befuddled and said, "What happened?? Did you push me?!" to me... I had to explain to him that, no, I didn't push a random guy I'd never met before off the bench while he was bench pressing. He and the girl quickly left the gym after that.

#BetaStories

wouldrep/10 if i wasn't spread

[Tyson54321]

Couple questions, do we only add 5 pounds to the deadlift
And if I was going to start at 135 for bench that mean it would take me around 9 weeks to get to 225 bench, is that realistic ?

[Charlie581]

Couple questions, do we only add 5 pounds to the deadlift
And if I was going to start at 135 for bench that mean it would take me 6 weeks to get to 225 bench, is that realistic ?

IMO you can do 5 or 10lbs on the deadlift

And yes you could reach that in 6 weeks, chances are that isn't going to happen though, hence the -10% resets / deloads when necessary.

[Tyson54321]

IMO you can do 5 or 10lbs on the deadlift

And yes you could reach that in 6 weeks, chances are that isn't going to happen though, hence the -10% resets / deloads when necessary.

What do you do if you Deload then end up pleutaue(spelt that wrong lol) do you just Deload again or what p you recommend, because when I start this I will most likely plateau before I reach at least a 225 bench.

[BuffMaltese]

Couple questions, do we only add 5 pounds to the deadlift
And if I was going to start at 135 for bench that mean it would take me around 9 weeks to get to 225 bench, is that realistic ?

I would say not a chance unless you are one of those guy that use to lift 225 but haven't lifted in a few years or something along those lines. It's supposed to take about a year to reach intermediate numbers and I would guess it would be even longer for many of us.

[Charlie581]

What do you do if you Deload then end up pleutaue(spelt that wrong lol) do you just Deload again or what p you recommend, because when I start this I will most likely plateau before I reach at least a 225 bench.

You will most likely not plateau after a reset/deload as long as you went about doing so correctly and are getting sufficient calories and rest, and using good form.

again, chances are you will have quite a few resets/deloads between 135 and repping 225


Check the FAQ for any other questions
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1063632501

[Tyson54321]

Thanks for the help repped

[tazui1982]

pretty much all my lifts! been stuck at 225 squat for 2-3weeks and 240deadlift for 3 weeks and 155 bench for 3 weeks and 105 OP for 3 weeks

2-3 week stall cant be right? Whats your current weight and whats your total daily calories? If you already reset 2 times and still stall try eat more see if it helps.