My Novice 5x5 For Bodybuilders.

[brucedelaney]

are those the BORs you have in mind for the program?

was thinking that you mean the ones where your upper body is parallel to the floor like pendlay rows but not starting each rep from the ground like on pendlays. you mentioned 45 here so I assume you are talking about the ones from the video I've linked? I was a little concerned about my lower back with doing 90° rows after deadlifting

It seems I can't put links into my posts yet, I mean the ones from the bodybuilding.com exercise video library

Giving a quick answer on this since I was just conversing this via this thread on the previous page. Post #1601

If you are already used to pendlay's and enjoy doing them continue using them. The differences between them and standard BORs is really minimal and they are very similar movements. My original ideas was purely that the BOR will allow one to use more weight for more overall development but I have so much heavy training for that in the program that a minor variation like a pendlay should not really impact the overall program.

[NeedANick]

Would this be recommended for a woman?

My friend wants to start working on her body, and I'm not entirely sure if women and men should do the same routine (shrugs for women sounds odd to me).

Any tips?

[JasonDB]

Would this be recommended for a woman?

My friend wants to start working on her body, and I'm not entirely sure if women and men should do the same routine (shrugs for women sounds odd to me).

Any tips?

There are women on this program right now.

My take on the matter:

[jstr94]

Jason i know you are a believer in full body 3x a week, but whats your response to people that say a full body 3x a week is inferior to routines such as P/P/L, upper lower due to lack of specialization.

Curious to know.

[Willnotquit]

So I went to the gym today and did my workout, I kind of aimed a bit low for my weight and good thing I did, some of the stuff translated in the gym is way heavier than the amount I was doing at home. Such at a straight up 60 pound Barbel is heavier at the gym than using one with plates that I did for Military Press.

I also, found the warning sticker on the Smith, and it stated that the machine has a 20 lbs resistance.

And the Bench barbel is a long one, so I believe it's the 45 one, it's from InTek.

Here are my results for today, I hope I get stronger in the near future.

Squat: 2 x 8 - 110 was 125 and was going to increase to 130 at home
Bench: 2 x 8 - 65, but on the last set, I failed to do the 8th rep and looked foolish. . Was 75 at home.
Rows: 2 x 8 - 40, I did 50 last week, but I felt I wasn't doing it properly so I decided to go lower this time.
Military Press - 2 x 8 - 40, at my home gym, I did, 60 pounds.
BB Curl 2 x 8 - 30

These are some measly lifts, but, I hope to increase, I don't know when I should increase, but I hope I can increase my lifts as I progress.

I am 5'4-5'5 at 110 if anyone is curious.

I also think part of the reason, I can't dish out higher weight is because I am resting shorter, during my home workouts, I rested between 5-10 min, because my friend and I shared equipment so the wait was a while, and SS program stated, you should rest how ever long you want in a reasonable frame, so as long as you complete your sets/reps.

Advice appreciated. Gonna keep making progress .

[JasonDB]

Jason i know you are a believer in full body 3x a week, but whats your response to people that say a full body 3x a week is inferior to routines such as P/P/L, upper lower due to lack of specialization.

Curious to know.

I would say that you can add specialization and finess work to a full body. That splitting up a program or organizing it in any manner that you chose does not remove your ability to do a concentration curl if that is what your physique needs. Things like P/P/L/Off are going to lead to slower gains for anyone not using anabolics by sheer virtue of the MPS uptime and while a very advanced natty might change to this, it is more because they either accept that they will grow very slowly at this point or because they are actually using enough anabolics, while claiming natty, to make the most of the program.

Please note I am only talking about bulking programs and normal cutting programs in which you are trying to gain muscle rapidly or trying to preserve all of it while cutting, not contest prep in which you need to peak and hit optimal glycogen storage and transient storage factors by contest time.

Also I have mutliple ways of reaching me in public forums. This thread is specifically for people running my novice program or for questions about it, let's not turn it into a discussion about how advanced bodybuilders should train and what works better for ones who are natural vs on steroids. P/P/L is not suitable or even remotely optimal for a novice drug-free lifter which I assume most people in this thread are. LoL

[Soulforged]

my gym lightest plate is 2,5kg/5lb ,so should i increase 5kg/10lb once a week then because every workout would be too much?

edit: one more question,if i want to put in calf raises can i put it instead of crunches on B?

[JasonDB]

my gym lightest plate is 2,5kg/5lb ,so should i increase 5kg/10lb once a week then because every workout would be too much?

edit: one more question,if i want to put in calf raises can i put it instead of crunches on B?

Due to your plates every other session should be fine for weight increases.

You can add any calf work you want, I've broken down that I don't have it because cookie cutter calf work is a waste of time in such a genetically individual muscle. I don't have to train mine personally, but you might need 20 sets a week to get good calves. Do NOT drop the core work. I would rather you drop the shrugs or the chinups than drop the core work if you are dealing with time constraints.

[a3sthetic]

Jason's routine is honestly one of the better routines I've seen. However, Jason and I subscribe to slightly different methodologies when it comes to training. IMO the flaws with his program are that you're only training chest and shoulders 1-2 times per week (compared to 3x on my routine), you're not doing any direct work for side delts, rear delts, or calves, and the only leg work you do is squats and deadlifts. His program would probably be slightly better for strength gains but my program would undoubtedly be better for hypertrophy/muscle gain and building a proportional physique.

I know you are a turn the other cheek kind of guy but this guy is a major douche. Not sure how his program got a sticky.

[maelpj]

question for your intermediate full body on youtube:

I always trained bodybuilding style and even if I made some good mass gain ( 5'10 215lbs 18%bodyfat) I feel I could really beneficiate from a strength phase. Bench is 105kgx8 but squat and deadlift are barely stronger. Would you suggest your workout for strength gain? thanks bro

and what would you think of this 2 way split? 2 day 1 on day off

squat 5x5
leg press 4x6-8
pulldown 3x12
db row 3x12
db curl 3x12
db shrugs 3x12

bench press 5x5
db incline 4x6-8
shoulder press 3x12
lats raise 3x12
skull crusher 3x12

T bar row 5x5
chin up 4x6-8
hack squat 3x12
deadlift 3x12
bb curl 3x12
facepull 3x12

military press 5x5
lats raise 4x6-8
db press 3x12
fly 3x12
cg bench press 3x12

[D9S4]

Hi Jason, firstly I'd like to say I love your videos, debunking the bro myths!
I've changed my nutrition to IIFYM and enjoying ice cream and chocolate on the daily!
I'm now looking at changing to your beginner routine (from split) but due to equipment in my gym I have a few questions;

Firstly- Squats- there is no rack in my gym, only a smith machine or leg press machine.. sucks doesn't it? I assume go with the smith machine>leg press ?

Secondly- Bench Press- same problem again, I've been using dumbbells up to now, shall I continue with this? (I'm currently on 25kg DBs so 50kg total, which is only 2kg less than my bodyweight, I'm assuming I'm still novice? been working out 6-7 months) I'm currently bulking, gaining around 1lb a week.

Thirdly- This means I also can't do the CGBP (There is also no Dip Station for Dips) unless I do it on the smith machine, should I sub it with another triceps movement (Tricep Press Machine?) or do it on the smith machine? (Looking forward to when this years membership is up and I can go to a better gym!)

Fourthly- Lateral Raises on B day after barbell press? For more rounded shoulder workout?

Lastly- what's your opinion on putting in some calf/forearm work? my forearms are seriously lagging but haven't put in any work for them due to it making my hand hurt like mad!

Sorry if these questions have been asked before but there is many many pages!
Keep up the brilliant videos.

[ShotgunMessiah]

OK I'll give this a shot. Two questions:

What is SS?

What is SL?

I'm looking forward to this. Back on the rack after 7 years. I over trained and murdered my shoulders. Wish me luck.

[JasonDB]

Hi Jason, firstly I'd like to say I love your videos, debunking the bro myths!
I've changed my nutrition to IIFYM and enjoying ice cream and chocolate on the daily!
I'm now looking at changing to your beginner routine (from split) but due to equipment in my gym I have a few questions;

Firstly- Squats- there is no rack in my gym, only a smith machine or leg press machine.. sucks doesn't it? I assume go with the smith machine>leg press ?

Secondly- Bench Press- same problem again, I've been using dumbbells up to now, shall I continue with this? (I'm currently on 25kg DBs so 50kg total, which is only 2kg less than my bodyweight, I'm assuming I'm still novice? been working out 6-7 months) I'm currently bulking, gaining around 1lb a week.

Thirdly- This means I also can't do the CGBP (There is also no Dip Station for Dips) unless I do it on the smith machine, should I sub it with another triceps movement (Tricep Press Machine?) or do it on the smith machine? (Looking forward to when this years membership is up and I can go to a better gym!)

Fourthly- Lateral Raises on B day after barbell press? For more rounded shoulder workout?

Lastly- what's your opinion on putting in some calf/forearm work? my forearms are seriously lagging but haven't put in any work for them due to it making my hand hurt like mad!

Sorry if these questions have been asked before but there is many many pages!
Keep up the brilliant videos.

Thank you for supporting my channel and I am glad it is having a positive impact on you... now for Jason's tough love...

The threads here have search tools. Without the ability to do basic barbell stuff this program isn't going to work as intended. I've found that here in the UK every town has gyms with power racks and squat racks. They aren't difficult to find and rates aren't too bad. I train at a specialized gym so pay 30 GBP a month for it. You simply do not have the equipment available to run my program, which is weird for a gym not to have as a smith machine or a hammerstrength machine costs more money than ALL the equipment needed to run my program combined even if you get to over 500 lbs on the deadlifts. Getting a better gym would be my first priority in your situation.

You do not need lateral raises yet as a novice, if you want more delt work I would rather you add face pulls as they are far more functional and will make better use of your time.

Add forearm and calf work as you see fit, these are minor movements and genetically not everyone needs them, so I do not include them (this one has been covered a few times if you do a thread search).

OK I'll give this a shot. Two questions:

What is SS?

What is SL?

I'm looking forward to this. Back on the rack after 7 years. I over trained and murdered my shoulders. Wish me luck.

SS is Starting Strength a book and program by Mark Rippetoe.

SL is Stronglifts 5x5, a minimalist barbell program for the novice.

[brucedelaney]

Jason,

I was watching a few of your videos to check my form on a few of the exercises.

-What type of bar are you using for Skull Crushers, to look at it, it looks like a 5ft Straight bar but I'm not 100% sure. I have a 7ft Olympic bar, a 47" EZ Curl bar and a Neutral Grip Tricep Bar as well. Which should I be using for the Skull Crushers.

-Since I only have a 7ft Olympic Bar, I'm assuming that's fine for straight bar curls since I can do the reps with it. Also assuming you don't recommend using the EZ-Curl bar because you would have originally.

-I work out at home and have a rack, bench and plenty of weights but don't have any type of cable machine to do the Kneeling Cable Crunch, My bench does decline which I do for my Hypers but I'm wondering if you can recommend another ab exercise? Declined crunches with a plate on my chest? I'm open to suggestions.

[Soulforged]

I work out at home and have a rack, bench and plenty of weights but don't have any type of cable machine to do the Kneeling Cable Crunch, My bench does decline which I do for my Hypers but I'm wondering if you can recommend another ab exercise? Declined crunches with a plate on my chest? I'm open to suggestions.

1h ago on youtube

Bennett Carr prije 1 sat
whats your opinion on weighted sit-ups? I know it's not really the best exercise, but I just really like it lol. Would it be detrimental if I were to sub that for cable crunches when running your 5x5?

IceCreamFitness prije 1 sat
In theory, although I would like to see people eventually shift over to some type of standing work. I'm currently doing a lot of full ROM standing crunches in the lat pulldown with a TRX band.

[pojo1993]

would you advise running your novice routine if I am looking to cut? I have about 30lbs to lose before I get to an acceptable BF. I have been lifting on and off for a little over a year and I have lost about 70lbs already but im looking to switch it up. Thanks.

[ottawatim]

would you advise running your novice routine if I am looking to cut? I have about 30lbs to lose before I get to an acceptable BF. I have been lifting on and off for a little over a year and I have lost about 70lbs already but im looking to switch it up. Thanks.

Answered on page 30, post 881 I believe, with video. Yes it can be done on a cut with some modifications.

[maelpj]

Why no answer bro? Fidel supporter of your channel is disappoint . Brb denied by icecream

[JasonDB]

Jason,

I was watching a few of your videos to check my form on a few of the exercises.

-What type of bar are you using for Skull Crushers, to look at it, it looks like a 5ft Straight bar but I'm not 100% sure. I have a 7ft Olympic bar, a 47" EZ Curl bar and a Neutral Grip Tricep Bar as well. Which should I be using for the Skull Crushers.

-Since I only have a 7ft Olympic Bar, I'm assuming that's fine for straight bar curls since I can do the reps with it. Also assuming you don't recommend using the EZ-Curl bar because you would have originally.

-I work out at home and have a rack, bench and plenty of weights but don't have any type of cable machine to do the Kneeling Cable Crunch, My bench does decline which I do for my Hypers but I'm wondering if you can recommend another ab exercise? Declined crunches with a plate on my chest? I'm open to suggestions.

The ez curl can be ok for skullcrushers but make sure you get the grip down right and not too narrow. In the last skullcrusher video I was using a standard 7 foot Olympic bar. The same bar I did my squating, benching and rowing with in the same session.

Why no answer bro? Fidel supporter of your channel is disappoint . Brb denied by icecream

Sorry this is my thread about my my novice program and a Q&A keep in mind it will eventually fill up and have to be remade so I don't clutter it answering questions not related directly to my program or people on said program. The ICF ******** page is a great place for general questions.

[Hypospadius]

Hey Jason, as a noob what caloric surplus should I go on while bulking and on your training program for optimal growth with minimal fat gain? Im skinny fat and around 13-14% bfat

Thanks will give you my measlies off r/c

[D9S4]

Hey Jason, as a noob what caloric surplus should I go on while bulking and on your training program for optimal growth with minimal fat gain? Im skinny fat and around 13-14% bfat

Thanks will give you my measlies off r/c

interested to see how bigger surplus he says, im on a 10% and gaining a LB a week which i believe is good?

[michaelkirby]

started a log for this

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=150725153
loving it so far.

[JasonDB]

Hey Jason, as a noob what caloric surplus should I go on while bulking and on your training program for optimal growth with minimal fat gain? Im skinny fat and around 13-14% bfat

Thanks will give you my measlies off r/c

I would start with a 10% surplus then assess weight changes and body composition differences in the mirror when determining if to increase it further. This program will function well, on the main program not the one alter for cutting, with a surplus ranging from 10 to 20%. Going beyond that isn't going to lead to further muscle gain, just a lot more fat potentially.

[PJ.14]

I have completed three of your workouts (A, B, A) and after the third my lower back was in serious pain for about 2 days. Before you spam incorrect form, I have had a coach for squatting and know form is not the issue, and I am using exactly 75% of my 1 rep max. What do you suggest?

[JasonDB]

I have completed three of your workouts (A, B, A) and after the third my lower back was in serious pain for about 2 days. Before you spam incorrect form, I have had a coach for squatting and know form is not the issue, and I am using exactly 75% of my 1 rep max. What do you suggest?

If you are sure your form is perfect you need to do tons of hamstring stretching as this is a sign of overly tight hamstrings... most commonly seen in people who sit at a desk most of the day.

[alejandroPH]

hey jason sorry but i just find the idea of going through 55 pages looking for someone in a similar situation as me unenticing so i hope you'll bear with me

anyway, basically i don't know if i'm a "novice" by your definition and if i should thus follow your routine. have been lifting since 2007, made noob gains and was generally consistent, even whilst fed by broscience as most teens were, during the early years. then college hit and the past four years have been on and off (mostly the latter), basically wasting good four years of potential (maximal) bodybuilding. started getting serious and informed again last september and till now have been cutting, currently at 140lbs (though it might be higher, not so sure bec of the past few days of holiday eating/drinking lol).

so i wanna start bulking soon like maybe next week, and so i'm thinking if i should switch up to your routine. if the above doesn't sound "novice" to you, do you have an intermediate routine or one that you can recommend that i might follow ?

if it helps to be any indicator, here are the stats for my compound lifts as of this week :

squats : 175x7 reps for 3 sets
deadlifts : 155x8 reps for 3 sets
pullups : bodyweight x 9reps for 3sets
bench press : 165x6-7reps for 3 sets
OHP : 85x8reps for 3 sets

thanks as always brah !

[JasonDB]

hey jason sorry but i just find the idea of going through 55 pages looking for someone in a similar situation as me unenticing so i hope you'll bear with me

anyway, basically i don't know if i'm a "novice" by your definition and if i should thus follow your routine. have been lifting since 2007, made noob gains and was generally consistent, even whilst fed by broscience as most teens were, during the early years. then college hit and the past four years have been on and off (mostly the latter), basically wasting good four years of potential (maximal) bodybuilding. started getting serious and informed again last september and till now have been cutting, currently at 140lbs (though it might be higher, not so sure bec of the past few days of holiday eating/drinking lol).

so i wanna start bulking soon like maybe next week, and so i'm thinking if i should switch up to your routine. if the above doesn't sound "novice" to you, do you have an intermediate routine or one that you can recommend that i might follow ?

if it helps to be any indicator, here are the stats for my compound lifts as of this week :

squats : 175x7 reps for 3 sets
deadlifts : 155x8 reps for 3 sets
pullups : bodyweight x 9reps for 3sets
bench press : 165x6-7reps for 3 sets
OHP : 85x8reps for 3 sets

thanks as always brah !

Why do you squat more than you deadlift? I would expect a 200 lbs squater to deadlift 300 lbs.... this is an indication that you half/quarter squat. Still yes you are very much producing novice numbers and this program would be fine for you.

[prittycuul]

Are there warmups for the lifts and if so do you have a vid and can you link me to it, thank you

[alejandroPH]

Why do you squat more than you deadlift? I would expect a 200 lbs squater to deadlift 300 lbs.... this is an indication that you half/quarter squat. Still yes you are very much producing novice numbers and this program would be fine for you.

on that note here's my squat http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...0100603&page=2 just scroll to the bottom. if you can, maybe you could also critique my squat ?

and i think it's because i'm not doing DL's at my maximal capacity yet e.g. i feel i can still do more (will actually increase next DL day) but for my squats i'm already having a difficult time.

but anyway thank you for your advice, i will definitely follow your program ! will watch your video on it later

happy holidays

[JasonDB]

on that note here's my squat http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...0100603&page=2 just scroll to the bottom. if you can, maybe you could also critique my squat ?

and i think it's because i'm not doing DL's at my maximal capacity yet e.g. i feel i can still do more (will actually increase next DL day) but for my squats i'm already having a difficult time.

but anyway thank you for your advice, i will definitely follow your program ! will watch your video on it later

happy holidays

Your depth is fine which means you just need to try harder on your deadlifts. Your current squats I would expect you to pull 225 for your work sets on deadlifts after 2 weeks of doing. You need to get a little tigher on your squats, get your hips set tighter, shoulderblade retracted tighter and don't look down at the floor, look straight ahead or slightly below eye level.