My Novice 5x5 For Bodybuilders.

[JasonDB]

Thanks for sharing this program! I've been running All Pros since June, and I've had fairly good results with it as far as weight gain goes. I've developed a pretty good strength foundation and made linear gains in my lifts. I'm interested in your program because now that I've laid the foundation for lifting, I think I would be better suited to move to something that will offer quicker strength gains while still focusing on hypertrophy. It sounds like your program is tailor-made for someone in my situation:

I've run 4 cycles of All Pros (20+ weeks), gained from 138lbs - 151lbs, and gained a solid foundation.

Do you feel that this would offer quicker strength and size gains at this point than continuing to run 4-5 more cycles of All Pros assuming a 500 calorie suprlus?

Definately faster strength, however I cannot promise you that you will gain more size than All Pros. You might fine them very similar in that regard. All Pro's program is a very good routine to be fair.

[Stev05]

Definately faster strength, however I cannot promise you that you will gain more size than All Pros. You might fine them very similar in that regard. All Pro's program is a very good routine to be fair.

Thanks for the quick reply! I can't really complain about my size increases on All Pros, I was gaining at a rate of about 1lb per week. I like the idea of this because I've been lifting since June consistently and I'm just now using 45s on my bench. If I can run a program that will get me as good of hypertrophy results while increasing strength at a faster rate, then I think it's time for a switch.

[blair420]

Just finished workout A am i suppose to up the weight for workout B? or only add weight from A-A to B-B. Sorry if this has been answerd 234947923 times i read through as much as the thread as i could until i got bored.(regardeing squats)

[ajsat23]

Just finished workout A am i suppose to up the weight for workout B? or only add weight from A-A to B-B. Sorry if this has been answerd 234947923 times i read through as much as the thread as i could until i got bored.

Up it from A to B.

[DoolaMadness]

Just finished workout A am i suppose to up the weight for workout B? or only add weight from A-A to B-B. Sorry if this has been answerd 234947923 times i read through as much as the thread as i could until i got bored.(regardeing squats)

I was also wondering this, I feel like I'd be adding weight too quickly.

[blair420]

Up it from A to B.

seems to be expecting alot to add 10-15 lbs on ur squat aweek if you didnt start light.

[Blacklac]

I thought he said in the video to add weight "weekly". I was just going to add weight every Monday. Is that not correct?

[blair420]

I thought he said in the video to add weight "weekly". I was just going to add weight every Monday. Is that not correct?

i understood to add weight to each consecutive workout A-A B-B but since your squatting in both A and B not sure how the weight progression should go.

[hcoyle545]

i understood to add weight to each consecutive workout A-A B-B but since your squatting in both A and B not sure how the weight progression should go.

You should be adding weight to the bar each time you squat. If you don't hit 5x5 due to this, try it once more. If you don't hit 5x5 second time around, reset it by 10% and continue adding 5lbs each time you squat until you need to repeat.

[Geoff Richards]

Jason

is it detrimental or counter productive to workout B if the weight for BOR
is NOT reduced by 10-15% from workout A ?

[JasonDB]

i understood to add weight to each consecutive workout A-A B-B but since your squatting in both A and B not sure how the weight progression should go.

See below. \/\/\/

You should be adding weight to the bar each time you squat. If you don't hit 5x5 due to this, try it once more. If you don't hit 5x5 second time around, reset it by 10% and continue adding 5lbs each time you squat until you need to repeat.

Jason

is it detrimental or counter productive to workout B if the weight for BOR
is NOT reduced by 10-15% from workout A ?

If you are capable of replicating the BOR weight from workout A on workout B then either you were half-assing the weight on Workout A (or you just reset) or you are half-assing the deadlift in workout B and need to add 20 lbs to it asap. You shouldn't be able to hit peak numbers on a BOR shortly after doing an all out deadlift set.

[Erik09]

Switching to the cutting version of this now with some HIIT, as I'm travelling to Bali in a few months, and I want to get ready!

I did make quite some strength gains when I was bulking on this, especially after your guidance on the bench and shoulder press, so just wanted to say thank you!
Really appreciate all the time you're spending answering our awful questions

I'll definitely revisit this when I'm bulking again!

[the7comeback7ki]

I just wanted to thank you for a killer routine. I have been at it for almost a month and have noticed a much steeper gain curve then when I was working out with a trainer. The compound lifts are great.

As of now I am weighing in at 144 lbs at 5'8
Squat is at 145 now bench 135 dead lift 145
Nothing even moderately impressive but way up from where I started. I had been focusing too much on cutting to try and get abs with no real results.

Long story short thanks for putting together a great routine.

[Stev05]

So, as someone with about 5 months of solid routine lifting foundation, but still very low lifts, how long do you think I could run this before needing a reset? Let's say we use bench as the example. I'm about 150 lbs, if I start benching on the 5x5 structure with 135 lbs, how many workouts would you estimate I can continue adding weight before stalling? I understand this is going to be case by case based on numerous factors, I'm just looking for a rough idea based on your experience. Ie 2, 5, 10

[JasonDB]

Switching to the cutting version of this now with some HIIT, as I'm travelling to Bali in a few months, and I want to get ready!

I did make quite some strength gains when I was bulking on this, especially after your guidance on the bench and shoulder press, so just wanted to say thank you!
Really appreciate all the time you're spending answering our awful questions

I'll definitely revisit this when I'm bulking again!

I just wanted to thank you for a killer routine. I have been at it for almost a month and have noticed a much steeper gain curve then when I was working out with a trainer. The compound lifts are great.

As of now I am weighing in at 144 lbs at 5'8
Squat is at 145 now bench 135 dead lift 145
Nothing even moderately impressive but way up from where I started. I had been focusing too much on cutting to try and get abs with no real results.

Long story short thanks for putting together a great routine.

You are both welcome.

So, as someone with about 5 months of solid routine lifting foundation, but still very low lifts, how long do you think I could run this before needing a reset? Let's say we use bench as the example. I'm about 150 lbs, if I start benching on the 5x5 structure with 135 lbs, how many workouts would you estimate I can continue adding weight before stalling? I understand this is going to be case by case based on numerous factors, I'm just looking for a rough idea based on your experience. Ie 2, 5, 10

Too difficult to tell and weight resets are individual so you might guess starting weights wrong and need a reset after the second workout and another might progress for 5 or 7 sessions. However if you started with reasonable weights it is going to be pretty rare to hit 10 workouts without stalling. Honestly I would not try to predict as this can psychologically set you up for failure prior to when you should due to expectation. If I wanted to be nice I would say 25 workouts so you will not see it coming and not psych yourself out early.

[Stev05]

You are both welcome.



Too difficult to tell and weight resets are individual so you might guess starting weights wrong and need a reset after the second workout and another might progress for 5 or 7 sessions. However if you started with reasonable weights it is going to be pretty rare to hit 10 workouts without stalling. Honestly I would not try to predict as this can psychologically set you up for failure prior to when you should due to expectation. If I wanted to be nice I would say 25 workouts so you will not see it coming and not psych yourself out early.

Haha well fair enough. I guess I'll just have to give it a whirl and see where it gets me. I would imagine either way I'll be able to add more than 20-25 pounds in 5 months on bench and squat like I have on my current routine.

[krysix]

I'm injured right now but I'm really considering starting this routine instead of doing starting strength again. I guess I could replace one of the Kneeling Cable Crunches with hanging leg raises right?

[talarone]

Woot, so my squat is at 295 for 3 sets, 225 as warmups for 2 sets...5x5 of course, depth is slightly below parallel, deads i kinda messed my back up from horrid form, so it's only at 105 for a warm up, 145 for working sets as I'm doing em light.
Standing press is up to 85, which I'm happy because 2 weeks ago it was 10 pounds less and i even struggled with the bar.
Bench press though, has been the same, 145 at 163 pounds at 5'9, also tracking my weight as i'm only eating 2400 calories, eventually ill ramp it up to 2500, then 2600, then 2700, etc.
Even curls went up due to chin ups, i can also do more chin ups...and thats with a few weaks half assing allpros (i didn't like it) and going my ass at the routine...first week saw tons of strength improvement, hyperextentions kinda hurt, but i know doing them will help as im young and didn't screw my back up too too bad....

For some reason i control dumb bells better than barbells though...but ill get used to it, I'm happy with my progress, especially squat...i actually doubted my form because im almost already at double my bw.

[JedDaIron]

If I stall on assistance lifts the 2nd time, reset by 10% too?

[ajsat23]

Finally hit a 225 1rep max on bench! It has been a long time goal, I was close for a long time and finally was able to hit it with this program. Hopefully by the end of the year it will be my 5rep max.

[gerryh777]

JasonDB,

First of all thank you for posting this routine. One question: would a routine like this work for a "cut" and how would you modify it to account for the lower calorie intake / lower energy
aspect of cutting? The volume as it is seems high for a cut and I don't want to start with it and get burned out after two or three weeks.

Thank you in advance for your response.

[ajsat23]

JasonDB,

First of all thank you for posting this routine. One question: would a routine like this work for a "cut" and how would you modify it to account for the lower calorie intake / lower energy
aspect of cutting? The volume as it is seems high for a cut and I don't want to start with it and get burned out after two or three weeks.

Thank you in advance for your response.

I believe that that the 5x5 go to 3x5 and th3 3x8 go to 2x8. The weight progression goes from +5 every work out to +5 every other workout. There is a video about it by the OP a couple pages back.

Here you go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=gGuxhP-fUik

[JasonDB]

If I stall on assistance lifts the 2nd time, reset by 10% too?

Yes.

Finally hit a 225 1rep max on bench! It has been a long time goal, I was close for a long time and finally was able to hit it with this program. Hopefully by the end of the year it will be my 5rep max.

That goal might not be unreasonable as long as your rest and nutrition are in check.

JasonDB,

First of all thank you for posting this routine. One question: would a routine like this work for a "cut" and how would you modify it to account for the lower calorie intake / lower energy
aspect of cutting? The volume as it is seems high for a cut and I don't want to start with it and get burned out after two or three weeks.

Thank you in advance for your response.

I believe that that the 5x5 go to 3x5 and th3 3x8 go to 2x8. The weight progression goes from +5 every work out to +5 every other workout. There is a video about it by the OP a couple pages back.

See above ajsat23 nailed it. I had so many people asking this that I covered it in a Q&A video.

[lefteris7]

I can't really hit legs hard since my coach told me to stop training them. I will keep training them though once a week. How can I modify this program? Can i make it into an upper/rest/upper/rest/upper/lower/upper/rest and it goes on? Also since i'm taking legs out of the equitation could I increase the volume a bit on upper body for more specialization?

[JasonDB]

I can't really hit legs hard since my coach told me to stop training them. I will keep training them though once a week. How can I modify this program? Can i make it into an upper/rest/upper/rest/upper/lower/upper/rest and it goes on? Also since i'm taking legs out of the equitation could I increase the volume a bit on upper body for more specialization?

At that point you are just writing your own program.... or are asking me for a customized program. NO BODY is going to write a customized program for free.

Almost every single lift (other than the curls skullcrushers and chinups) use the lower body in this program. So you can't really run it and follow his instructions. Bench press uses leg/hip drive, standing rows use the posterior chain etc.

Actually your coach sounds like a dumbass if for any sport he would tell someone not to do heavy squats, you need to join a new team and drop him. Send him to my thread so I can tell him he needs to get a basic grasp of exercise science.

[salubrious]

Hey Jason,
Is internally rotating my arms while doing shrugs cheating? Hand position stays the same, I just bring my elbows around more.

Not sure if feeling more comfortable (and lifting more this way) is taking the emphasis away from where it should be.

Also, in your video, you state that if you can't do chins then you should just do more curls. I was wondering if using a lat pulldown machine with palms facing in was ok or not?

Thanks in advance!

[JasonDB]

Hey Jason,
Is internally rotating my arms while doing shrugs cheating? Hand position stays the same, I just bring my elbows around more.

Not sure if feeling more comfortable (and lifting more this way) is taking the emphasis away from where it should be.

Also, in your video, you state that if you can't do chins then you should just do more curls. I was wondering if using a lat pulldown machine with palms facing in was ok or not?

Thanks in advance!

No a lat pulldown is not the same thing, if you aren't strong enough yet for chins do the curls. I want a heavy direct load on the biceps not to use a lighter weight on a lat pulldown if you are not strong enough to use your body weight. I would rather a direct isolation be used in this case for bicep development.

On the shrugs you go straight up and down. Rotating the shoulders is goingto massively reduce the weight you can handle. I expect my average trainee to be past 300 lbs on these within 2 months of starting the program. By the time someone is an intermediate they should be able to shrug 400+ for reps... hince why I've mentioned straps a few times. If it is uncomfortable you are too upright, lean forward 10 degrees.

[eduardo49ers]

Monday Chest/Shoulders/Triceps
3 Sets x 8 Reps Bench Press
3 Sets x 8 Reps Shoulder Press
3 Sets x 8 Reps Chest Flies
Tuesday Back/Traps/Biceps

3 sets x 8 reps Pullups

3 sets x 8 reps Seated rows

3 sets x 8 reps Dumbbell shrugs

3 sets x 8 reps Preacher curls
Wednesday Quads/Hams/Glutes/Calves
3 Sets x 8 Reps Leg Press
3 Sets x 8 Reps Barbell Squats
3 Sets x 8 Reps Calf Raises
3 Sets x 8 Reps Barbell Deadlifts
Friday Abs
3 Sets x 10 Reps Crunches
3 Sets x 10 Reps Decline Twisting Crunches
3 Sets x 10 Hanging Leg Raises


since you seem to be an experienced BB/Weightlifter does this routine sound decent for a novice?

[salubrious]

No a lat pulldown is not the same thing, if you aren't strong enough yet for chins do the curls. I want a heavy direct load on the biceps not to use a lighter weight on a lat pulldown if you are not strong enough to use your body weight. I would rather a direct isolation be used in this case for bicep development.

On the shrugs you go straight up and down. Rotating the shoulders is goingto massively reduce the weight you can handle. I expect my average trainee to be past 300 lbs on these within 2 months of starting the program. By the time someone is an intermediate they should be able to shrug 400+ for reps... hince why I've mentioned straps a few times. If it is uncomfortable you are too upright, lean forward 10 degrees.

I might not described what I am doing very well. When I grip the bar for the shrug, my elbows naturally point backwards about 45 degrees from the bar. What I do is rotate my elbows so they point towards the plates on either side ie 0 degrees from the line of the bar. The shrug itself is still the same, just straight up and down.

I find it easier to shrug more weight doing this. Not sure why, maybe because it helps to lock the elbows out or it improves the angle in which the bar is being pulled.

Is the 300 and 400lb targets the same if you only weigh 132lbs? I am only 5'3", doing the program for 4 weeks and I shrugged 200lbs 3x8 yesterday. Another 100lbs in 4 weeks might be a bit steep from here lol

[JasonDB]

Monday Chest/Shoulders/Triceps
3 Sets x 8 Reps Bench Press
3 Sets x 8 Reps Shoulder Press
3 Sets x 8 Reps Chest Flies
Tuesday Back/Traps/Biceps

3 sets x 8 reps Pullups

3 sets x 8 reps Seated rows

3 sets x 8 reps Dumbbell shrugs

3 sets x 8 reps Preacher curls
Wednesday Quads/Hams/Glutes/Calves
3 Sets x 8 Reps Leg Press
3 Sets x 8 Reps Barbell Squats
3 Sets x 8 Reps Calf Raises
3 Sets x 8 Reps Barbell Deadlifts
Friday Abs
3 Sets x 10 Reps Crunches
3 Sets x 10 Reps Decline Twisting Crunches
3 Sets x 10 Hanging Leg Raises


since you seem to be an experienced BB/Weightlifter does this routine sound decent for a novice?

No it looks terrible, whoever wrote this has clearly never read a single book on exercise science or taken a single course in it and lacks even the most basic understanding of training programming. Feel free to tell them I said so and if they do not like it to take it up with me here. Please do not clutter my thread with other people's routines. Thank you.

I might not described what I am doing very well. When I grip the bar for the shrug, my elbows naturally point backwards about 45 degrees from the bar. What I do is rotate my elbows so they point towards the plates on either side ie 0 degrees from the line of the bar. The shrug itself is still the same, just straight up and down.

I find it easier to shrug more weight doing this. Not sure why, maybe because it helps to lock the elbows out or it improves the angle in which the bar is being pulled.

Is the 300 and 400lb target the same if you only weigh 132lbs? I am only 5'3", doing the program for 4 weeks and I'm shrugged 200lbs 3x8 yesterday. Another 100lbs in 4 weeks might be a bit steep from here lol

At 132 it will take a little longer but I wouldn't expect more than 4 or 5 months if you are in a caloric surplus.

What you are doing sounds like a normal shrug to me. I can't imagine how it would even be possible to shrug anywhere near 50% of one's max with their elbows pointed the way you described as natural and what you described as what you are doing to modify it sounds like a normal shrug the way everyone does it.