My Novice 5x5 For Bodybuilders.

[phrog801]

I know I keep posting random **** in here, I apologise in advance. I just can't believe how a few days of eating 300 more calories than before has made my bench progress easily. Was getting 4 reps per set on the weight I'm doing right now and it feels extremely light today, getting the 5 reps and feeling like I have 2-3 more in the tank. Also my arms have grown over half an inch after only being on this routine for 1 month and 1 week.

Yeah true before i started tracking macros i was stuck on a weight for about 3 weeks always near failed on the last rep of the sets, Once i started and adjusted my cals etc lifted it without breaking a sweat which has shown me how important tracking it is for progression.

[tokelift]

Yeah true before i started tracking macros i was stuck on a weight for about 3 weeks always near failed on the last rep of the sets, Once i started and adjusted my cals etc lifted it without breaking a sweat which has shown me how important tracking it is for progression.

My problem was that I was scared of getting fat as I started off obese a year ago, was just too worried about being too flabby so I didn't eat enough. What a huge mistake that was!

Am I doing skullcrushers wrong if I can feel it in my forearms as well as my triceps? Doing it with a normal 7ft olympic barbell atm, but I can feel it quite a bit in my forearms and obviously my triceps as well.

[JoshuaPP]

Why are Abs 3x15-20? Why are higher reps prescribed for most Ab routines? I've always wondered this.

[jabringmann]

Why are Abs 3x15-20? Why are higher reps prescribed for most Ab routines? I've always wondered this.

because some people will be able to max out the machine.

[Charlie581]

Why are Abs 3x15-20? Why are higher reps prescribed for most Ab routines? I've always wondered this.

The high reps in THIS routine is due to the likelihood of being able to get some low reps with all the plates on a machine (I can do an entire stack for kneeling cable crunch for low reps) I do standing cable crunch now though lol


The reason for ungodly high reps and other ridiculousness for OTHER abdominal routines is due to misconceptions about training and what will sell best to the public. On a true strength or Hypertrophy routine (and I mean written by someone who knows what they are talking about) the reps will not be much different than anything else.

[Jozh22]

are rows -10% only on B days?

ive been doing -10% on rows like this(not my lifts a example)
eg:

a 100kg
b-10% 90kg
a 101kg

b 102kg
a-10% 91.8kg
b 103kg

or should it be done like this?:
a 100kg
b-10% 90kg
a 101kg

b-10% 90.9kg
a 102kg
b-10% 91.8kg

[Charlie581]

are rows -10% only on B days?

ive been doing -10% on rows like this(not my lifts a example)
eg:

a 100kg
b-10% 90kg
a 101kg

b 102kg
a-10% 91.8kg
b 103kg

or should it be done like this?:
a 100kg
b-10% 90kg
a 101kg

b-10% 90.9kg
a 102kg
b-10% 91.8kg

Second one. You only subtract 10% during B workouts

Main reason is because you deadlift on B before rows, and will require a slight back-off of your workload

[foaj]

I know I keep posting random **** in here, I apologise in advance. I just can't believe how a few days of eating 300 more calories than before has made my bench progress easily. Was getting 4 reps per set on the weight I'm doing right now and it feels extremely light today, getting the 5 reps and feeling like I have 2-3 more in the tank. Also my arms have grown over half an inch after only being on this routine for 1 month and 1 week.

me too man... i always wondered why lifting before just made me exhausted and why i couldn't increase the weight, lol...

[Hawkers]

Can we do T-Bar row instead of Barbell Row?

[rayne88]

Jason says to do Pendlay rows, 90 degrees

[mtnmama]

first day of ICF 5x5!! Well - I did it. Here's my question now....as far as figuring out what weight to use - the point is to be able to complete the 5x5 (or 3x8 / 2x10 - whatever each one calls for) without failure - right? I remember when lifting before that each set we would increase weight and ultimately always fail. I get the impression that is not the point here. Am I supposed to do all sets with all reps at the weight for today - and not increase till next session - right?

Note - I am tired - I have pretty good fatigue in my muscles - lots of twitch - my guess is no arms over head movement tomorrow - and probably a slight swagger (not the good kind ). I love the pain of lifting!!!!!

[tazui1982]

Can we do T-Bar row instead of Barbell Row?

Bent over row recruits the most muscle fibers so don't sub them with Tbar rows.

[tazui1982]

Pretty much

Maybe start out with only 6 sets of 15 second all out sprints. Take as much time as needed to recuperate. Slowly work your way up. move to 20sec, then 25, then 30, then maybe increase sets, etc...

or maybe do something else basic like
5 minute warm up brisk walk
30 second jog
30 second sprint
5 minute cooldown


Lots of variations to look into. DO make sure to warm up though, preferably 3-5min jog

What are you talking about? Did squat kill you today or something? The guy was talking about Pendlay row and you're telling him to jog.

[tazui1982]

first day of ICF 5x5!! Well - I did it. Here's my question now....as far as figuring out what weight to use - the point is to be able to complete the 5x5 (or 3x8 / 2x10 - whatever each one calls for) without failure - right? I remember when lifting before that each set we would increase weight and ultimately always fail. I get the impression that is not the point here. Am I supposed to do all sets with all reps at the weight for today - and not increase till next session - right?

Note - I am tired - I have pretty good fatigue in my muscles - lots of twitch - my guess is no arms over head movement tomorrow - and probably a slight swagger (not the good kind ). I love the pain of lifting!!!!!

No failure, in fact for they should feel a bit light and you should complete all 5 reps x 5 sets with, say, 20kgs, next workout increase the weight to 22.5kg.

[tazui1982]

Just did my first bench pressing since the deload from 145, it was weird even 130 x 5 felt a little bit challenging, but i'm focusing more on form this time as I noticed when I was attempting 145 my wrists were pushed back a lot, this time i'm putting the bar on the bottom of my palms and trying to keep straight wrists. Hopefully bench progresses past 145 this time lol.


I have a question though, on Workout B days where you do rows -10% i've been doing T-Bar rows. We have a T-Bar row "machine" (not guided or anything, basically free weight with a pad) like this at my gym:

I feel like I can do the lighter weight and not fatigue myself as much as bb rows and yet I feel it soooo much more in my lats.

Does anybody see a problem w/ this?

The problem with this machine is that it recruits less muscle fibres than standing free weight bent over row, which means it will work but Bent over row is way more effective.

[Charlie581]

What are you talking about? Did squat kill you today or something? The guy was talking about Pendlay row and you're telling him to jog.

LOL wtf?

Was answering someone about HIIT??? I dont see the question anymore though 0.o

i think theres a wizard here....


EDIT: Nvm im retarded.....was adding something to a previous post but replied to the above comment somehow lol My bad

i think i need sleep :P

[Hawkers]

Bent over row recruits the most muscle fibers so don't sub them with Tbar rows.

It's a bent over T-Bar row but like with one end of a barbell not the machine does it incorporate the same fibers?

[Litres]

Jason says to do Pendlay rows, 90 degrees

Standard barbell row actually. As in the plates do not touch the ground.

[Litres]

It's a bent over T-Bar row but like with one end of a barbell not the machine does it incorporate the same fibers?

Stick with barbell rows. Don't change the program.

[tazui1982]

It's a bent over T-Bar row but like with one end of a barbell not the machine does it incorporate the same fibers?

I'm not sure at all, but if you refer to the video on the first page of the thread, JasonDB stated that Bent over row is the best mass builder for the back and should not be substituted. I saw this the other day http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs_GXPfrQ78 according to this guy all pulling is good for your back

[Charlie581]

Standard barbell row actually. As in the plates do not touch the ground.

IMO you can touch the ground if you want, its just not necessary.

The main points are to pull it to your chest (same spot where the bar touches during bench press), pull straight up and down, and get a good ROM (scapula protraction, and the bar goes low)

[Ampedlift]

IMO you can touch the ground if you want, its just not necessary.

The main points are to pull it to your chest (same spot where the bar touches during bench press), pull straight up and down, and get a good ROM (scapula protraction, and the bar goes low)

Why do you recommend pulling it to your chest? 90% of people seem to say pull it to you're lower abs / belly button area.

Whenever I do bent over rows I don't feel them working my back much either way though. Like T-Bar Rows much better (feel them in my lats 100x more), even though people say bb row recruits more muscle fibers

[Charlie581]

He covers it in the first question

Why do you recommend pulling it to your chest? 90% of people seem to say pull it to you're lower abs / belly button area.

Whenever I do bent over rows I don't feel them working my back much either way though. Like T-Bar Rows much better (feel them in my lats 100x more), even though people say bb row recruits more muscle fibers

You "can" pull it to lower abs, but you get better strength and better back musclegroup recruitment from straight up and down/touching below the nipple line.



PS: the ^ is also a generalized statement. With something like rowing form, some personal differences will occur for better muscle recruitment.

[mtnmama]

No failure, in fact for they should feel a bit light and you should complete all 5 reps x 5 sets with, say, 20kgs, next workout increase the weight to 22.5kg.

does everyone / anyone else agree? Just want to make sure that I am on the right track

[Redmark]

Why do you recommend pulling it to your chest? 90% of people seem to say pull it to you're lower abs / belly button area.

Whenever I do bent over rows I don't feel them working my back much either way though. Like T-Bar Rows much better (feel them in my lats 100x more), even though people say bb row recruits more muscle fibers

If u can't feel bent over rows working then try keeping your elbows tucked into your sides and squeeze your back when you pull the bar upto your belly button you should be able to 'feel' it with good form.

[BuffMaltese]

does everyone / anyone else agree? Just want to make sure that I am on the right track

yeah, I thought going to failure, muscle burn, being sore the next day was what lifting was all about too before I started this program.

Lot of that stuff has more to do with some bull**** muscle pump and muscle endurance...or perhaps has its place to complement a more advanced routine...don't know and I'm not worried about it right now.

This program works.

Yes, the first week or so you'll be thinking of other exercises you can throw in, adding extra days, and a lot of other bull**** will cross your mind.

It gets really heavy, really hard, really fast.

Start at 75% of your 1 rm for your 5x5. Don't think "hey this is too light I'm going to jump up 10 lbs etc" you are just going to end up reseting sooner than you have to and end up taking longer to progress. Do 65% 1 rm for the accessories.

Increase 5 lbs for 5x5 a workout. (you will see, 5 lbs turns out to be a lot of weight once you are getting close to your max)

[Redmark]

does everyone / anyone else agree? Just want to make sure that I am on the right track

yeh the idea is that you will keep increasing the weight (around 5-10lbs) every workout and keep doing this, it will get harder within a couple of weeks and you will get to point in a few weeks were you can't manage all 5 reps on every set.

[Litres]

IMO you can touch the ground if you want, its just not necessary.

The main points are to pull it to your chest (same spot where the bar touches during bench press), pull straight up and down, and get a good ROM (scapula protraction, and the bar goes low)

Oh definitely. One doesn't necessary have to follow everything to the point. Some slight tweaks here and there wouldnt hurt. For instance, I know Jason doesn't recommend adding reps as a way of progression in this routine, only adding weight for the most part aka single progression. Rather than doing what he suggested for the 3x8 exercises, which is to maintain the same weight for several sessions, stopping progression, and then only add weight once it becomes easy or increase 2lbs per session a la microloading, I tweaked the 3x8 exercises into 3x8-12, so that I can progress every single session, by adding reps. I find this much more satisfying than having to maintain the same weight for several sessions and much easier to progress than adding 2lbs per session.

[Litres]

does everyone / anyone else agree? Just want to make sure that I am on the right track

Sets are generally not done to failure. Failure only happens when you stall after weeks and weeks of progressing. So, you would complete all sets without failing every workout, you would do this for many sessions, and eventually you will fail, because you can't progress forever. When you fail twice in a row, just reset the weight by 10-15%, and work you way up from there. This time, you should be able to break pass your previous stall, and continue progressing. Eventually you'll fail again, then you would reset. Progress for a couple of weeks>Fail twice in a row>Reset weights>Progress again. Rinse and repeat.

[mtnmama]

yeah, I thought going to failure, muscle burn, being sore the next day was what lifting was all about too before I started this program.

Lot of that stuff has more to do with some bull**** muscle pump and muscle endurance...or perhaps has its place to complement a more advanced routine...don't know and I'm not worried about it right now.

This program works.

Yes, the first week or so you'll be thinking of other exercises you can throw in, adding extra days, and a lot of other bull**** will cross your mind.

It gets really heavy, really hard, really fast.

Start at 75% of your 1 rm for your 5x5. Don't think "hey this is too light I'm going to jump up 10 lbs etc" you are just going to end up reseting sooner than you have to and end up taking longer to progress. Do 65% 1 rm for the accessories.

Increase 5 lbs for 5x5 a workout. (you will see, 5 lbs turns out to be a lot of weight once you are getting close to your max)

ya - the failure sets I was referring to were in college as a scholarship athlete - more specialized for sure. that seems like 100 years ago now. I consider myself a complete novice now - regardless of my past....

thanks for the comments....looking forward to looking back after 60 days!