My Novice 5x5 For Bodybuilders.

[pyaarawala]

Keep training, take a week off from all tricep work which would incline OHP and Bench, and foam roll it a couple times a day. Assess it at the end of the week. If it hasn't improved by then see your doctor so that you can see a phisio asap.

Sounds good. Thank you!

[mljs54]

JasonDB,

Couple questions:

1. Can you sub SLDLs for DLs?
2. I'm debating trying this after doing SL5x5 for the past 2.5 months. Anything in particular I should be concerned with? Can I pickup where I was with that program for my current weights for the compounds?
3. This is a ABA BAB 3x a week routine with essentially 2 days off between ABA and BAB?

Apologies if this was already answered in the video as I have no sound at work.

[JasonDB]

JasonDB,

Couple questions:

1. Can you sub SLDLs for DLs?
2. I'm debating trying this after doing SL5x5 for the past 2.5 months. Anything in particular I should be concerned with? Can I pickup where I was with that program for my current weights for the compounds?
3. This is a ABA BAB 3x a week routine with essentially 2 days off between ABA and BAB?

Apologies if this was already answered in the video as I have no sound at work.

1. No the SLDL is a much lighter more hamstring focused movement rather than an overall size and power builder that the deadlift is. The SLDL is a fine exercise, but for the purpose deadlift fills in this program it isn't an ideal substitute. Again people can tinker a little with the program based on preference, I am not a purist, however don't be upset if you do so and get less than optimal results.

2. Given that it is more volume and weight resets are included you could go either way, as if you hit a wall you will be forced to very quickly reset anyway. You could do it that way or you could retest and start with my advised percentages (which are higher than SL has you start with). The concern should be to be prepared for the higher volume and the addition time in the gym.

3. Yes it is intended as a 3x a week setup m/w/f, t/th/sat etc. However one person did ask if he could do it with 48 hours between so 3 session one week 4 the next due to him loving being in the gym more often, which I told him he could but he needs to watch his recovery closely, if he is stalling too often to switch to how I have it setup.

No problem, watch the video when you get the chance so that you know how I have things setup, and what I advise on how to perform some of the lifts specifically for this program.

[lifebeckons75]

If problem areas are stalling and you aren't in a hurry to get ripped, stop cutting and very mild clean bulk, 10% surplus tops for a couple months, add a little muscle with minimal to no fat gain, speed your metabolism back up then go back to cutting and start incorporating refeeds, as you are fairly lean. Meaning run a 300-500 deficit most days then consume a 500 calorie surplus once a week, of very high carbs... between the refeeds and some additional muscle gain first I think you'll find the problem area leans out quickly... barring appetite issues/binging.

Just noticed that I forgot to thank you Jason for the above reply .

Thank you !

I have upped my caloric intake and will shoot for 5 to 10% over maintenance. to be honest I don't know what my maintenance is anymore so I am slowly adding calories and will try to limit the weight gain to about 1 lb every 2 weeks (or even a little less than that).

And thank for the refeeds tip.

I must say that I am really enjoying this 5x5 routine. Am trying to add 5 lbs to most exercises every workout.

[Ferello]

This or all pros? im a cycle through all pros and thinking of giving this a go bad idea or? opinions please

[Skullster]

This or all pros? im a cycle through all pros and thinking of giving this a go bad idea or? opinions please

I just did 6 cycles of All Pro's and now running this routine. There are a couple of others on this now too that completed several cycles of All Pro's. Unless you are completely bored with AP's routine you should give it at least 3 cycles IMHO. Lifting weights and getting big is more of a marathon than a sprint so let a good routine work for you rather than getting in that trap of always switching things up before you see any benefits. AP's routine is pretty forgiving if you are eating at a deficit. Increasing weight every workout can get real taxing in a hurry eating at a deficit unless you take it real slow. Jason put this routine together for a novice (someone in between a beginner and an intermediate lifter). If all you have is one AP cycle under your belt, I would complete 2 more cycles at the least and then hop on this if you want to. It all depends on what you want to do in the end? Whatever you choose to do, stick with it and it give it a chance to be a benefit.

[hcoyle545]

Starting tomorrow, looking forward to full body training again.

My new log for those interested:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post968563783

[snrygo]

Starting tomorrow, looking forward to full body training again.

My new log for those interested:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post968563783

No hate, but how many times have you changed routines in the last 3 weeks?

[hcoyle545]

No hate, but how many times have you changed routines in the last 3 weeks?

When I was planning to cut I changed it up to RPT style, before quickly catching myself on and getting back to bulking when I resumed my PHAT training. Pay attention.

[snrygo]

When I was planning to cut I changed it up to RPT style, before quickly catching myself on and getting back to bulking when I resumed my PHAT training. Pay attention.

Yeah that's what I got from your posts on DYEL lol. I kept going "wasn't he on that other routine 5 minutes ago?"

[hcoyle545]

Yeah that's what I got from your posts on DYEL lol. I kept going "wasn't he on that other routine 5 minutes ago?"

A lot of indecision on my part. I'm glad I decided to keep bulking.

[a3sthetic]

Hey Jason,

I want to check that we are supposed to increase the weight each time we do the exercise or each time that routine comes around. eg on squats we increase on each of the three days or do we increase it every time workout A comes around again.

I was also wanting to understand the reasoning behind the sets/ reps between your routine and MC 5x5.

If I had to guess, I'd say that your plan aims to push a newbie harder (because they can be) to obtain linear gains before resetting whereas MC uses more undulation (ramping weight, different rep/set ranges etc) within the week to build in the recovery. Is this why MC is more suited to an intermediate lifter?

At what point would you decide that you have reached the end of your program? Failing to progress after two resets?

What would you recommend as the progression from your routine?

Many thanks for your help Jason, appreciate your dedication!

[JasonDB]

Hey Jason,

I want to check that we are supposed to increase the weight each time we do the exercise or each time that routine comes around. eg on squats we increase on each of the three days or do we increase it every time workout A comes around again.

I was also wanting to understand the reasoning behind the sets/ reps between your routine and MC 5x5.

If I had to guess, I'd say that your plan aims to push a newbie harder (because they can be) to obtain linear gains before resetting whereas MC uses more undulation (ramping weight, different rep/set ranges etc) within the week to build in the recovery. Is this why MC is more suited to an intermediate lifter?

At what point would you decide that you have reached the end of your program? Failing to progress after two resets?

What would you recommend as the progression from your routine?

Many thanks for your help Jason, appreciate your dedication!

You increase weight unless you stall on a lift, meaning if you have to revese pyramid to complete all sets or you cannot complete the 5th rep of the 5th set then do not increase the weight, try it again the next session. If you miss the same weight for the same lift 2 sessions in a row (meaning you fail to complete it) then you reset the weight 10-15% and reramp up from there.

MC is an intermediate routine for the strength athlete with strength as a primary goal size as a secondardy goal. My routine is a novice routine for the bodybuilder with size as the primary goal and strength as the secondardy. MC builds up to peak sets with less actual workload but a heavier weight on one all out set so the earlier sets in MC are there to give you some volume for hypertrophy and to prime the CNS for the heavy set to come while mine focuses you on a slightly lighter intensity most of the time, but inducing more overall fatigue through workload while still working with relatively heavy weights to ensure good strength gain. Mine isn't set for full linear progression per body part as there will be an undulating pattern with all the resets, but the overall progression week to week for the entire body will be linear.

The full progression, and a lot of pointers on the execution of the lifts and links to associated videos to help you with this (many people don't know how to bench for their chest or curl for their biceps... srs and I mean people who are regulars on forums even) is covered in the video in great detail.

[a3sthetic]

MC is an intermediate routine for the strength athlete with strength as a primary goal size as a secondardy goal. My routine is a novice routine for the bodybuilder with size as the primary goal and strength as the secondardy. MC builds up to peak sets with less actual workload but a heavier weight on one all out set so the earlier sets in MC are there to give you some volume for hypertrophy and to prime the CNS for the heavy set to come while mine focuses you on a slightly lighter intensity most of the time, but inducing more overall fatigue through workload while still working with relatively heavy weights to ensure good strength gain. Mine isn't set for full linear progression per body part as there will be an undulating pattern with all the resets, but the overall progression week to week for the entire body will be linear.

Wow, I didn't think of it that way, it makes perfect sense!

I'll check out those videos.

Thank you for making me less ignorant!

[nickotine18]

I want to get better with the barbell rows? Should I learn how to row with the plates resting on the ground after every rep? I think these are called pendlay rows?

[JasonDB]

I want to get better with the barbell rows? Should I learn how to row with the plates resting on the ground after every rep? I think these are called pendlay rows?

Those are called pendlay rows. My program calls for standard barbell rows, which will allow you to use a heavier weight than pendlay rows for overall development. Pendlay rows are a fine exercise, however they will slightly detract from the full body stimuation of this routine that the novice can benefit from. My program has a ton of movements that put stress on the core, lower back and the entire posterior chain for a reason. I'm building the novice up to be able to safely handle heavier weights with fewer weak points for a wide variety of lifts they will later want to introduce as an intermediate or advanced lifter/bodybuilder.

[fero4u123]

Hey Jason,

back again with a few more questions lol.

So I did this workout on Monday(first day). Felt great. Was able to get through all my sets and exercises slow and steady, with good form, no stalls etc. Now here it is Wednesday and I am suppose to do Workout B.

Everything I worked out is a little sore. Some of the soreness isn't so bad, and I can still see myself working out. My concern is about the Squat and Deadlift I'm suppose to do today. I am somewhat limping with my legs already today(sore stilll) and find it hard to imagine I'm suppose to go into the gym and Deadlift(1x5) or Squat 5x5 with 5lbs more lol.

So do you think with my overall soreness I should skip today ? Or maybe just Squats (:-) lol...darn squats)? Or Perhaps maybe lower the weight ? idk.

Also (noticed this from working out):
I do my chins / Chin up with just about a shoulder width grip. Kinda felt it a little more in my back. Should I be using close grip for chins?

[JasonDB]

Hey Jason,

back again with a few more questions lol.

So I did this workout on Monday(first day). Felt great. Was able to get through all my sets and exercises slow and steady, with good form, no stalls etc. Now here it is Wednesday and I am suppose to do Workout B.

Everything I worked out is a little sore. Some of the soreness isn't so bad, and I can still see myself working out. My concern is about the Squat and Deadlift I'm suppose to do today. I am somewhat limping with my legs already today(sore stilll) and find it hard to imagine I'm suppose to go into the gym and Deadlift(1x5) or Squat 5x5 with 5lbs more lol.

So do you think with my overall soreness I should skip today ? Or maybe just Squats (:-) lol...darn squats)? Or Perhaps maybe lower the weight ? idk.

Also (noticed this from working out):
I do my chins / Chin up with just about a shoulder width grip. Kinda felt it a little more in my back. Should I be using close grip for chins?

Shoulder width is fine. No go ahead and train as usual, you will stop getting doms on the high frequency once you are consistent. Foam rolling, stretching etc will be very useful recovery tools for you on a moderately high frequency program like this.

I say moderately high frequency because this is standard novice frequency and has been for 60 years. There are guys like Jamie Lewis (615 lbs raw squat in the 181 weight class) who squat heavy up to 6 days a week and do 10-20 sets of squats in a session sometimes.

[Jeremy-D]

Stupid question of the day. Do you warm up then do 5 sets of 5 at working weight or warm up up through 4 sets and the final 5 reps at working weight?

[hcoyle545]

Stupid question of the day. Do you warm up then do 5 sets of 5 at working weight or warm up up through 4 sets and the final 5 reps at working weight?

It's 5x5 sets across at working weight, after the warmups.

[JasonDB]

Stupid question of the day. Do you warm up then do 5 sets of 5 at working weight or warm up up through 4 sets and the final 5 reps at working weight?

It's 5x5 sets across at working weight, after the warmups.

It is sets across (meaning if you are able use the same weight all the way through all sets).

[Jeremy-D]

Dam, and with warm up you should be able to do the workout in an hour?

[JasonDB]

Dam, and with warm up you should be able to do the workout in an hour?

60-90 minutes. My own workouts take a lot longer, but novices do not have a high workload tolerance. They lose all their leg drive after 5 sets of heavy squats and all their pressing power after 5-6 sets of heavy bench.

[nickotine18]

Those are called pendlay rows. My program calls for standard barbell rows, which will allow you to use a heavier weight than pendlay rows for overall development. Pendlay rows are a fine exercise, however they will slightly detract from the full body stimuation of this routine that the novice can benefit from. My program has a ton of movements that put stress on the core, lower back and the entire posterior chain for a reason. I'm building the novice up to be able to safely handle heavier weights with fewer weak points for a wide variety of lifts they will later want to introduce as an intermediate or advanced lifter/bodybuilder.

Ahh okay. Do you have any vidoes explaining how to properly do barbell rows? I'm having a hard time with this exercise. I'm not quite sure where I'm supposed to feel it in my muscles, but right now it seems to be targeting my shoulders moreso than my back.

[Spimman]

After 6 weeks of doing straight Strong Lifts 5x5 I'm really enjoying the additional work, and feeling it too! Thanks for putting this together, and your videos were really helpful. After adjusting the form to look like yours on my rows they are easier and more natural. I now feel like I'll be able to make it to 135 or higher before stalling where before I was already feeling like my limit was approaching.

Do you think my caloric needs should go up on this program vs standard SL 5x5?

Squat question. Can you explain mobility? I am finally getting to the point where my squats hit parallel, but that is near the limit of where I can get in terms of flexibility I suppose. Should I work on my mobility? I see that term, but I'm not very familiar with it and am not sure what would be best. I stretch my hip flexors pre-squat which seems to help a little bit.

Thanks!

[JasonDB]

After 6 weeks of doing straight Strong Lifts 5x5 I'm really enjoying the additional work, and feeling it too! Thanks for putting this together, and your videos were really helpful. After adjusting the form to look like yours on my rows they are easier and more natural. I now feel like I'll be able to make it to 135 or higher before stalling where before I was already feeling like my limit was approaching.

Do you think my caloric needs should go up on this program vs standard SL 5x5?

Squat question. Can you explain mobility? I am finally getting to the point where my squats hit parallel, but that is near the limit of where I can get in terms of flexibility I suppose. Should I work on my mobility? I see that term, but I'm not very familiar with it and am not sure what would be best. I stretch my hip flexors pre-squat which seems to help a little bit.

Thanks!

You are most welcome.

I need to do some videos on mobility but google 3rd world squats and Defranco's agile 8 as both of these will be benficial to you. Consider getting a foam roller if you do not have one.

Your caloric needs should be based upon your stats and goals. I have no where near enough information to advise your caloric intake needs right now, but I would start with the nutrition forum stickies to figure out what you need.

[Payton1221]

3. Yes it is intended as a 3x a week setup m/w/f, t/th/sat etc. However one person did ask if he could do it with 48 hours between so 3 session one week 4 the next due to him loving being in the gym more often, which I told him he could but he needs to watch his recovery closely, if he is stalling too often to switch to how I have it setup.

How about the opposite of this? I'm an older lifter, and I think that I benefit better from an every third day type of routine--I mean that I feel "beat up" (joint pain NOT doms) if I try for anything more frequent than this. Other than progressing a little slower, does this have any other effect?

[JasonDB]

How about the opposite of this? I'm an older lifter, and I think that I benefit better from an every third day type of routine--I mean that I feel "beat up" (joint pain NOT doms) if I try for anything more frequent than this. Other than progressing a little slower, does this have any other effect?

Connective tissue recovery is generally a bigger issue than muscle recovery.. a muscle can easily be stimulated for successful results, sorry to those who think otherwise, 7x a week... but connective tissue is a whole other animal (so is the CNS). In your case I would assess a number of things before backing off on the frequency, becuase as an older individual you do not have the anabolic hormones the kids do and you need every edge you can get in terms of muscle protein synthesis, so frequency reduction isn't going to do you any favours unles as a last resort.

-Consider slower progress.
-If connective tissue starts to hurt deload for a week.
-Reduce volume of the workout if you must before reducing frequency. You will make better overall gains month to month if you spread a numbers of sets across more frequency than lump it into fewer sessions, at least as a drug-free non-advanced lifter/bodybuilder.

[lrd3]

thanks again for posting this up here.
im enjoying the progres. me and your 5x5 are kicking eachothers a$$......
and im having a blast doing it...
good stuff......

[Millineum Man]

This is a SOLID routine!!