My Novice 5x5 For Bodybuilders.

[themonkay]

Yes I still recommend this routine to you. More advanced routines progress slower not faster. Your deadlift will progress fast enough that I promise you will stall and have to reset before long, within 2 months.

Thx for the response. Also I was wondering if box squats would be appropriate for the 5x5 on squats or if that volume just isn't smart when it comes to doing box squats. I've switched from my previous fb routine to this one since last week. On my old routine I was doing box squats since I'm pretty bad at staying tight out the hole.

[JasonDB]

Jason,

I started this routine today, and have a question.

So I understand that, at its heart, this is a 3 times a week routine. However I usually lift 5 or 6 times a week, mainly because I was splitting body parts by days. I just enjoy going to the gym a lot. Sad but gym time is the highlight of my day ...

This morning I started with Workout A. I did squats, bench, rows and shrugs, and then moved to some abs work. Can I go back to the gym tomorrow and finish up the rest of my workout A (chins, hypers, skulls)?

Are there are physiological drawbacks to do this routine like this:

Monday : Workout A: big lifts (squats, bench, rows, shrugs)
Tuesday : Workout A: accessory work (skulls, hypers, chins, abs)
Wednesday: Workout B: big lifts (squats, deads, standing presses, rows)
Thursday: Workout B : accessory work (cgbp, incline curls, abs)
and so on ......

I am sorry if this sounds like a stupid question, but I like going to the gym 5 to 6 times a week and this will work better for me.

Potential over-use of connective tissue from heavy compounds hitting the same muscles, joints and tendons day after day without enough recovery time for them would be a potential concern.

You could always do extra days just becuase you love the gym and do a few isos or some very light work on your main compounds (like 50%1rm sets of 8) or some abs, band stretching and other active recovery work or GPP work for conditioning (farmer's walks barbell complexs etc)... and moniter your recovery, joint and tendon pain etc.

Thx for the response. Also I was wondering if box squats would be appropriate for the 5x5 on squats or if that volume just isn't smart when it comes to doing box squats. I've switched from my previous fb routine to this one since last week. On my old routine I was doing box squats since I'm pretty bad at staying tight out the hole.

Box squats beyond 3 reps can be difficult due to losing the explosiveness you need to get the bar moving out the hole however if you can manage it and maintain proper heel drive, avoid bouncing off the box or rounding your lumbar on the box with the 5 rep sets you can work with the box squats on this... I've done 5x5 box squats in the past.

[themonkay]

Haha yeah 5x5 box squats nearly destroys me but they've helped me improve my squat a lot. If I feel like 5x5 box squats are just becoming too taxing and risky on my spine I'll probably swap it for regular high bar squats 5x5 and ocasionally have a day where I do sets of three on box squats.

On a side note, even though you didn't direct it to me, thx for the advice on BOR (on the forums and your channel). My lats have never hurt so good lol

[JasonDB]

Haha yeah 5x5 box squats nearly destroys me but they've helped me improve my squat a lot. If I feel like 5x5 box squats are just becoming too taxing and risky on my spine I'll probably swap it for regular high bar squats 5x5 and ocasionally have a day where I do sets of three on box squats.

On a side note, even though you didn't direct it to me, thx for the advice on BOR (on the forums and your channel). My lats have never hurt so good lol

You are welcome on the rowing advice.

Box squats are only risky to your spine if there is a form breakdown, however done incorrectly yes they are dangerous. I have a box squat video also.

[simoxeh]

Jason we talked about my skinny fat issue a week or two ago. I'm following your advice on bulking. I'm doing All Pro but getting bored with it. I think its waiting five weeks to add weight that gets me bored. Would you suggest i stick with it longer or try your routine.

[nickotine18]

Yes, I have an question about the skinny fat issue as well. I am a total noob at lifting. I've only started started working out a month ago. Although my weight has increased from 139 pounds to currently 151 pounds. I was told since I am skinny-fat, I should limit my workouts to 2 or 3 workouts per week with as much rest in between and also I needed to keep my workouts less than 45 minutes. From the looks of your program, it looks like I will be increasing the time I would be working out quite substantially. Would this be okay for someone like myself that has an extremely high metabolism? I am quite interested in this program and would like to get started on something that will help me gain size and strength.

[simoxeh]

Yes, I have an question about the skinny fat issue as well. I am a total noob at lifting. I've only started started working out a month ago. Although my weight has increased from 139 pounds to currently 151 pounds. I was told since I am skinny-fat, I should limit my workouts to 2 or 3 workouts per week with as much rest in between and also I needed to keep my workouts less than 45 minutes. From the looks of your program, it looks like I will be increasing the time I would be working out quite substantially. Would this be okay for someone like myself that has an extremely high metabolism? I am quite interested in this program and would like to get started on something that will help me gain size and strength.

Jason will tell you to bulk. Also who told you to limit your workouts that much. I know some believe that your body will use muscle as fuel if over 45 mins but that wouldn't be an issue if you ate prior to and after the workout. Why the limits?

[nickotine18]

Jason will tell you to bulk. Also who told you to limit your workouts that much. I know some believe that your body will use muscle as fuel if over 45 mins but that wouldn't be an issue if you ate prior to and after the workout. Why the limits?

It's as exactly as what you said. I was told I'm an ecto hardgainer, (I know Jason doesn't believe in the term) so therefore working out past the 45 minute mark would be counter-productive for my bodytype. Also, I find it extremely hard to eat after working out because I tend to become very bloated after a workout, and I don't know why. I have to force myself to down a protein shake after working out but it has been extremely difficult to do so.

[erebus197]

It's as exactly as what you said. I was told I'm an ecto hardgainer, (I know Jason doesn't believe in the term) so therefore working out past the 45 minute mark would be counter-productive for my bodytype. Also, I find it extremely hard to eat after working out because I tend to become very bloated after a workout, and I don't know why. I have to force myself to down a protein shake after working out but it has been extremely difficult to do so.

How much do you eat (calories) and do you count calories? If not, you are probably eating less than you think. Hardgainer is code for 'does not eat enough.' I used to blame my lack of gains because I was a 'hardgainer' and people who knew nothing about lifting would believe. However, any experience lifter will tell you, if you're eating enough and lifting, you will grow, ESPECIALLY as a beginner. This is a realization you'll have to come to if you want to get to your goal. If you keep using the hardgainer crutch, you won't get anyway.

Basically, try eating more. I know it is hard to get your calories sometimes (It feels like I am forcing it down my throat), but you just have to do it.

[nickotine18]

How much do you eat (calories) and do you count calories? If not, you are probably eating less than you think. Hardgainer is code for 'does not eat enough.' I used to blame my lack of gains because I was a 'hardgainer' and people who knew nothing about lifting would believe. However, any experience lifter will tell you, if you're eating enough and lifting, you will grow, ESPECIALLY as a beginner. This is a realization you'll have to come to if you want to get to your goal. If you keep using the hardgainer crutch, you won't get anyway.

Basically, try eating more. I know it is hard to get your calories sometimes (It feels like I am forcing it down my throat), but you just have to do it.

If you read my first post, I stated I went from 139 pounds to 151 in around a month. I have been counting my food intake and I average around 3k calories a day. I don't have a problem eating but after a workout, my body feels nauseous and bloated and I find it extremely difficult to eat. I think this may just be the price I'm paying for never working out a day in my life and I'm now 30 years old getting into fitness.

[erebus197]

If you read my first post, I stated I went from 139 pounds to 151 in around a month. I have been counting my food intake and I average around 3k calories a day. I don't have a problem eating but after a workout, my body feels nauseous and bloated and I find it extremely difficult to eat. I think this may just be the price I'm paying for never working out a day in my life and I'm now 30 years old getting into fitness.

Ah, yes. That was my bad, I read your original post but did not plan on replying until the second post and I forgot the question.

The time spent in the gym will be fine for you. The idea of keeping your workout under and hour tends to be used more for people doing body building splits (aka only working the one muscle group). Even then, it is questionable.

Twelve pounds in a month is quite a bit of weight. You may be overestimating your caloric needs, since it is probably mostly fat. (If it is muscle, good on you, but then you probably wouldn't be considering yourself a hardgainer :P)

Also, (though there is some controversy over this) you don't necessarily NEED a protein shake right after you workout, so if you can't do it, don't worry about it. The most important thing is calories in vs calories out, the rest is fine tuning and may not even be necessary.

[nickotine18]

Ah, yes. That was my bad, I read your original post but did not plan on replying until the second post and I forgot the question.

The time spent in the gym will be fine for you. The idea of keeping your workout under and hour tends to be used more for people doing body building splits (aka only working the one muscle group). Even then, it is questionable.

Twelve pounds in a month is quite a bit of weight. You may be overestimating your caloric needs, since it is probably mostly fat. (If it is muscle, good on you, but then you probably wouldn't be considering yourself a hardgainer :P)

Also, (though there is some controversy over this) you don't necessarily NEED a protein shake right after you workout, so if you can't do it, don't worry about it. The most important thing is calories in vs calories out, the rest is fine tuning and may not even be necessary.

Thank you for the reply. Yes, I probably am overestimating my caloric need, I didn't think that was possible because I never gained weight ever in my life! So I will definitely be trimming it down, and I will be starting on this program in a few days. Thank you everyone for your help.

[JasonDB]

Jason we talked about my skinny fat issue a week or two ago. I'm following your advice on bulking. I'm doing All Pro but getting bored with it. I think its waiting five weeks to add weight that gets me bored. Would you suggest i stick with it longer or try your routine.

Yes I remember you.

If you dislike the routine give mine a go and then stick with the one you enjoy the most and will stay with for months on end. His routine is good and I have recommended it to people in the past, it is just a different approach towards a similar goal as my program. Either one can work if you stick to it and are consistent.

Yes, I have an question about the skinny fat issue as well. I am a total noob at lifting. I've only started started working out a month ago. Although my weight has increased from 139 pounds to currently 151 pounds. I was told since I am skinny-fat, I should limit my workouts to 2 or 3 workouts per week with as much rest in between and also I needed to keep my workouts less than 45 minutes. From the looks of your program, it looks like I will be increasing the time I would be working out quite substantially. Would this be okay for someone like myself that has an extremely high metabolism? I am quite interested in this program and would like to get started on something that will help me gain size and strength.

A high metabolism only means you need more calories than the average person. The 45 minute limit has never worked, and most successful bodybuilders and powerlifters, even in tested federations, train for hours. I know a guy who I train with from time to time right now who is a lifetime natural, started 30 years ago as a 130 lbs skinny kid who was told he was a hardgainer, trains for 2 hours a day 6 days a week and has 19" arms with a 385 bench at 50 years old. Your workload tolerance builds up over time.

Jason will tell you to bulk. Also who told you to limit your workouts that much. I know some believe that your body will use muscle as fuel if over 45 mins but that wouldn't be an issue if you ate prior to and after the workout. Why the limits?

Right this can be solved through more calories. Actually there is some research research coming out showing that longer training times produce more muscle gains and that the additional cortisol from going over 45-60 minutes seems to be indicative of an effective workout, not muscle loss, and it is understood that there will be short term increase in protien breakdown immediate post training, but there is a response towards MPS in the other direction very shortly after.

How much do you eat (calories) and do you count calories? If not, you are probably eating less than you think. Hardgainer is code for 'does not eat enough.' I used to blame my lack of gains because I was a 'hardgainer' and people who knew nothing about lifting would believe. However, any experience lifter will tell you, if you're eating enough and lifting, you will grow, ESPECIALLY as a beginner. This is a realization you'll have to come to if you want to get to your goal. If you keep using the hardgainer crutch, you won't get anyway.

Basically, try eating more. I know it is hard to get your calories sometimes (It feels like I am forcing it down my throat), but you just have to do it.

This bolded is true... a beginner if they train hard, add weight to the bar regularly and eat enough calories, protein and basic nutrients will grow noticably even on a terrible program. The idea behind a good program is to get them to grow faster than on the terrible one, but they will still make gains on the bad one.

[erebus197]

For some reason I thought cgbp could be swapped with dips but I no longer see this. Maybe I was going crazy. Why no dips?

[JasonDB]

For some reason I thought cgbp could be swapped with dips but I no longer see this. Maybe I was going crazy. Why no dips?

There is nothing wrong with dips as a chest or tricep builder... some people cannot perform them safely so CGBP is a safer choice, not everyone has access to decent dipping bars at the gym, or their home gym if they have a bench or rack at home, it requires a belt with a chain, also something not all gyms have and just more equipment in general... plus with bench press being a primary mass builder in this program the CGBP is a better accessory lift to improve the bench faster than dips are so it works better in the program.

[pyaarawala]

I noticed a bunch of people saying this is too much volume. And it really does seem like a lot of volume. On the classic SS even after Squats 3x5 and OHP 3x5 I feel like I barely have any energy left. And quite a lot of gym time passes by (7 min rest between sets + 4 warmup sets for each exercise). So I feel like if I start your program it will take me more than 2 hours to complete! And I've heard from many people if you're in the gym for more than 45-90 min you're wasting your time.

How long would you expect a noob like me to take during these workouts? Especially workout A which has 7 more sets than Workout B.

[JasonDB]

I noticed a bunch of people saying this is too much volume. And it really does seem like a lot of volume. On the classic SS even after Squats 3x5 and OHP 3x5 I feel like I barely have any energy left. And quite a lot of gym time passes by (7 min rest between sets + 4 warmup sets for each exercise). So I feel like if I start your program it will take me more than 2 hours to complete! And I've heard from many people if you're in the gym for more than 45-90 min you're wasting your time.

How long would you expect a noob like me to take during these workouts? Especially workout A which has 7 more sets than Workout B.

60-90 minutes is my expectation for most people on this program. As to those saying these statements about 45-90 minutes neither science nor anecdote supports this idea.

The lack of volume for hypertrophy is one of the largest complaints leveled against Starting Strength for bodybuilding purposes. I've also heard powerlifting record holders, like Jamie Lewis, say that they would never put even a prospective powerlifter on a routine with so little volume unless their long term goal was mediocrity.

[pyaarawala]

60-90 minutes is my expectation for most people on this program. As to those saying these statements about 45-90 minutes neither science nor anecdote supports this idea.

The lack of volume for hypertrophy is one of the largest complaints leveled against Starting Strength for bodybuilding purposes. I've also heard powerlifting record holders, like Jamie Lewis, say that they would never put even a prospective powerlifter on a routine with so little volume unless their long term goal was mediocrity.

Ah, I see. So can I just use my 5RM values from SS for your program? And is Standing Press the same as Overhead Press? For exercises I don't do on SS (Rows, Shrugs, Skullcrushers, etc) how do I determine how much weight to use? I know it's 75% 1RM on 5x5 and 65% 1RM on 3x8's, but I'm not quite familiar with determining these values in just one workout.

[lrd3]

for me all the lifts = warm ups and rest's included it takes me about a hour and 20 minutes.
for the record i am a noob. i lifted years ago in my early 20s but not again sense then.
i dont think i would have done all that well to start completely green on this routine. i personally ran another beginners program for 20+ weeks.
this is my new program. i love this routine becuse of its added time im lifting for. the progres is steady and at the end of the routine i really feel like i killed it.
in all honesty i wouldnt recommend it for a first time lifter as it is time consuming and may be intimidating to a person who never trained before.
but for any one who has pute some time in elsewhere and found there dedication level would be wise to check this out.
(disclaimer = i told you im a noob = take it for what its worth)

[JasonDB]

Ah, I see. So can I just use my 5RM values from SS for your program? And is Standing Press the same as Overhead Press? For exercises I don't do on SS (Rows, Shrugs, Skullcrushers, etc) how do I determine how much weight to use? I know it's 75% 1RM on 5x5 and 65% 1RM on 3x8's, but I'm not quite familiar with determining these values in just one workout.

Here you go, use a weight that causes you to fail on 3-5 reps for the heavier compounds and round 5-8 for the accessory movements unless you feel comfortable testing them with lower reps to get more accuracy.

http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/OneRepMax.html

[simoxeh]

Really into this workout it reminds me of SS which i did really good on and saw results with my numbers, but looking forward to seeing body changes also. Question is do any of the five sets count as warm up sets or do do I need to add them in addition to the five. Thanks again for all your help over the last few weeks.

[lifebeckons75]

Completed my first day of Workout A. I didn't spend too much time on trying to do the math of 75% of 1RM, because to be honest most of my lifts are dismal at this point. Also I am cutting so my progress in weights will be slow. So I lowered the weights appropriately as a starting point. Here are the numbers.

Workout A
Squat 5x5 = 145 lbs
Bench Press 5x5 = 145 lbs
Barbell Row 5x5 = 135 lbs
Barbell Shrug 3x8 = 235 lbs
Skullcrusher 3x8 = 80 lbs
Chins 3x8 = Body Weight + 45 lbs
Hyperextention 2x10 = 45 lbs
Kneeling Cable Crunch 3x20 = 80 lbs

I have been lifting for many years. Jason, if you see my starting numbers, do you see some imbalances?
For example, my squats, bench and rows are quite dismal. But I was easily able to do 3x8 chins with 45 lbs added in very very strict form. Chins and pull ups are one of my favorite exercises and I used to do tons of those. On some days, I used to do 12 sets of 10 reps each of pull ups with different kinds of grip and grip width.

The other thing that I pay a lot of attention to is my form. Most "big" guys at my gym, who grunt and throw plates around, do most of their exercises with pathetic form. Very little ROM, or bouncing the bar on the chest etc. All of my reps are slow and controlled. Perhaps a tad too slow. I know I can lift more weight if I up my tempo a bit. In this routine is there an ideal tempo? for someone like me, should I make the reps faster to lift more weight, or stick to a slower tempo. I do something like a 2-1-2-1 tempo.

Finally do you have a video demonstration of bent over rows? I use very strict movement, no hip drive. That limits how much I can lift. But I read that you recommend a certain amount of "cheating" on the rows.

[Spimman]

The primary valid complains against programs like SL5x5 are:
1) Overall volume a little too low for optimal hypertrophy.
2) Lack of direct arm work
3) Not enough core work.

Great program, I've been doing SL5x5 for 5-6 weeks and agree with your points. I think I'm going to give this a try.

[JasonDB]

Really into this workout it reminds me of SS which i did really good on and saw results with my numbers, but looking forward to seeing body changes also. Question is do any of the five sets count as warm up sets or do do I need to add them in addition to the five. Thanks again for all your help over the last few weeks.

No problem, pay me back for the help by getting results. I help people because I want them to reach their goals.

Completed my first day of Workout A. I didn't spend too much time on trying to do the math of 75% of 1RM, because to be honest most of my lifts are dismal at this point. Also I am cutting so my progress in weights will be slow. So I lowered the weights appropriately as a starting point. Here are the numbers.

Workout A
Squat 5x5 = 145 lbs
Bench Press 5x5 = 145 lbs
Barbell Row 5x5 = 135 lbs
Barbell Shrug 3x8 = 235 lbs
Skullcrusher 3x8 = 80 lbs
Chins 3x8 = Body Weight + 45 lbs
Hyperextention 2x10 = 45 lbs
Kneeling Cable Crunch 3x20 = 80 lbs

I have been lifting for many years. Jason, if you see my starting numbers, do you see some imbalances?
For example, my squats, bench and rows are quite dismal. But I was easily able to do 3x8 chins with 45 lbs added in very very strict form. Chins and pull ups are one of my favorite exercises and I used to do tons of those. On some days, I used to do 12 sets of 10 reps each of pull ups with different kinds of grip and grip width.

The other thing that I pay a lot of attention to is my form. Most "big" guys at my gym, who grunt and throw plates around, do most of their exercises with pathetic form. Very little ROM, or bouncing the bar on the chest etc. All of my reps are slow and controlled. Perhaps a tad too slow. I know I can lift more weight if I up my tempo a bit. In this routine is there an ideal tempo? for someone like me, should I make the reps faster to lift more weight, or stick to a slower tempo. I do something like a 2-1-2-1 tempo.

Finally do you have a video demonstration of bent over rows? I use very strict movement, no hip drive. That limits how much I can lift. But I read that you recommend a certain amount of "cheating" on the rows.

Haha I have a video on rowing... rowing is something I advocate controlled cheating, big time, on for advanced lifters... however the novice, not only due to lack of experience but also due to not having a strong core or posterior chain I would rather them stay strict on this. Intermediates and on should find their groove on rowing. Most other lifts I advocate paying close attention to form. As to going slow slow controlled eccentrics are fine and usually ideal, concentric reps should be as fast and explosive as you can safely control a weight. Obviously bouncing is out... anyone who watched the accompanying video on benching for chest or even my power benching video will quickly realize chest bouncing does not make for a very impressive chest and it sure will not fly at a powerlifting meet... if someone bounces I tell them "you can't actually bench that weight".

Rows slightly out of balance with bench but close enough for now. Those squats need to come up quickly, however they will if you use the progression of the routine anyway. Nice tricep strength and chinning strength so you are not lacking for arm strength at this point.

Great program, I've been doing SL5x5 for 5-6 weeks and agree with your points. I think I'm going to give this a try.

Give it a try and report back in a month or two on your progress.

[simoxeh]

So my question was do i do warm up sets as part of the five or separately?

[JasonDB]

So my question was do i do warm up sets as part of the five or separately?

Those are seperate. The sets are sets across with occasoinal reverse pyramiding on a new weight if you feel you can't complete the final sets with a new weight.

[simoxeh]

Those are seperate. The sets are sets across with occasoinal reverse pyramiding on a new weight if you feel you can't complete the final sets with a new weight.

Thanks a lot for all the help. Going to go get my max this week and start fresh on Monday. Might start a work out blog to help keep me motivated and accountable. Though we disagree on brown vs white rice you are definitely knowledgable.

[HammerDance45]

Those are seperate. The sets are sets across with occasoinal reverse pyramiding on a new weight if you feel you can't complete the final sets with a new weight.

i watched the video and enjoyed it! im just starting my first bulk and am on starting strength. i fit that "6/7 month real lifting experience" mold and ultimately my goal is to be aesthetically pleasing. do you think this would be better for me than starting strength? or should i continue with ss and then switch after ive made some strength gains do this program? on ss in under 3 weeks ive already seen 50 lb increase on 3x5 squats and at least 15 lb increase for every other 3x5 lift

[lrd3]

i ripped the day B up today!!!
man im digging this program. i started running out of steam on my over head press. but did get them all clean.
next week im going to try for the increase. but im not overly optimistic. no biggie the rest of them are still moving up and i feel great on them all.
im amazed how quikly my body has reacted to the extra work load.
loving it!!! thanks again jasonDB..........

[JasonDB]

i ripped the day B up today!!!
man im digging this program. i started running out of steam on my over head press. but did get them all clean.
next week im going to try for the increase. but im not overly optimistic. no biggie the rest of them are still moving up and i feel great on them all.
im amazed how quikly my body has reacted to the extra work load.
loving it!!! thanks again jasonDB..........

You are welcome... and even if one of the main lifts stalls and you have to reset it, the beauty of running a program like this with a lot of volume and with independant lift resets is that you will still be growing quickly due to all the other lifts giving improved stimulation and progression even if 1 or 2 are being reset.