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  1. #781
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    Originally Posted by wolfhunley View Post
    @JasonDB I finished my first week on Sunday, I feel great and am very eager to get back in the gym. Is the 2 day rest extremely necessary or would it hurt my progress to go on to my next B day tonight? thanks
    Yeah I will make it clear that my intermediate routine will not work on a cut... this novice routine would be more appropriate to an intermediate on a cut, as again they aren't going to gain any muscle so progression rates are a non-issue... just lifting heavy and focusing on preserving strength and muscle mass should be the goal on a cut for anyone intermediate or advanced.

    Originally Posted by mljs54 View Post
    JasonDB - I'm coming off of 13 weeks of SL and wanted to see if your program was right for me. Had a couple questions:

    1. Squats - Seriously stalled on SL. Went from 85 to 180 with some good progression (usually didn't stall for more than a session) but have been stuck at 180 for a while now (even after deloading). Anything I can add to your program to improve my squat? It's well behind my BP (205) and I'd love to fix that. To your point, I also saw very little mass increase under SL (despite my lifts actually going up) and think I actually lost arm/chest size.
    2. Is a 5x5 program after SL right for me timing wise? or should I take a couple weeks-month of a split routine. Asking because there are a couple other stickied programs here I was debating on trying.

    I basically want to hit the weights hard again but want to ensure I'm picking something that will give me good progression without a quick stall after SL.
    Stalls in prorgess can and will happen, it is unavoidable. Otherwise everyone would have a 1,000 lbs squat and bench press after 5 years of training... yet only a tiny handful of people in the world have either. Honestly with anything sub 315 on a squat stalls are only due to not reseting and ramping back up or not deloading or simply not consuming enough calories. Did you gain any body weight during the times in which you were stalling? If you are stalling at over 300 lbs I would ask for videos to break down your issues as in that case it is a technique or a muscle imbalance issue.

    Yes this program should be fine and you will not have the same issues with your chest or arms on it.

    Originally Posted by wolfhunley View Post
    @JasonDB I finished my first week on Sunday, I feel great and am very eager to get back in the gym. Is the 2 day rest extremely necessary or would it hurt my progress to go on to my next B day tonight? thanks
    Schedule your 3 days however you want as long as they are at least 48 hours apart. However I wouldn't do the routine more than 3x per week. I know you are eager but I'm given you an pretty optimal frequency and volume with balanced deloads/resets to keep everything flowing. You aren't going to make more progress by doing it more frequently.

  2. #782
    wants to be called Dan. hcoyle545's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JasonDB View Post
    Honestly with anything sub 315 on a squat stalls are only due to not reseting and ramping back up or not deloading or simply not consuming enough calories..
    Could also be a form issue? Just throwing it out there.
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  3. #783
    Banned JasonDB's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hcoyle545 View Post
    Could also be a form issue? Just throwing it out there.
    It could be this also of course but without proper videos I cannot assess that. Most people are pretty shocked when I look at their squat videos though as I can usually find 3-5 problems in the first 10 seconds of looking. Of course you know that from people's logs when 3 people go "squats looked good" I go, "your squats are terrible forget everything you know start over with 135 and learn it correctly."

    I've spent an hour at a time teaching some of the younger local guys how to squat when I get tired of watching them do quad dominant half squats for a couple weeks with their setup so loose that they look like a wet noodle flopping around under the bar.

  4. #784
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    Jason,

    On week 4 and making good progress.

    Question about OHP: Should these be done in the strict military press form, or is a little bit of leg drive okay?

    I did 5x5 OHP this morning with 115 lbs. Up until today all my OHP had been strict military presses with no leg drive. However today I used a little bit leg drive as the weight was heavy for me to do the strict military press.

    Is this okay, or should I count today's OHP as a failure?

  5. #785
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    Hey Jason,

    I think I'm having some form issues with the bench, causing progression issues. Out of the bottom, when I press, its really hard for me to keep my scapulas together and on point, and its usually a bigger struggle than the actual press. Is there something inherently wrong with this?

  6. #786
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    Originally Posted by FruitSupernova View Post
    Hey Jason,

    I think I'm having some form issues with the bench, causing progression issues. Out of the bottom, when I press, its really hard for me to keep my scapulas together and on point, and its usually a bigger struggle than the actual press. Is there something inherently wrong with this?
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  7. #787
    Registered User mljs54's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JasonDB View Post
    It could be this also of course but without proper videos I cannot assess that. Most people are pretty shocked when I look at their squat videos though as I can usually find 3-5 problems in the first 10 seconds of looking. Of course you know that from people's logs when 3 people go "squats looked good" I go, "your squats are terrible forget everything you know start over with 135 and learn it correctly."

    I've spent an hour at a time teaching some of the younger local guys how to squat when I get tired of watching them do quad dominant half squats for a couple weeks with their setup so loose that they look like a wet noodle flopping around under the bar.
    Below is a squat form vid i posted a while back - 135 focusing purely on form. People told me to keep my chest up more which I fixed by keeping my head slightly up as opposed to following my body in the mirror.

    Jason, going to give your program a go starting tomorrow - really like the support you provide throughout the thread

    you tube.com/watch?v=u5W6Hw_3yvI&feature=plcp

    ^ sorry about the messed up link I don't have 50 posts yet to link.

  8. #788
    Banned JasonDB's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lifebeckons75 View Post
    Jason,

    On week 4 and making good progress.

    Question about OHP: Should these be done in the strict military press form, or is a little bit of leg drive okay?

    I did 5x5 OHP this morning with 115 lbs. Up until today all my OHP had been strict military presses with no leg drive. However today I used a little bit leg drive as the weight was heavy for me to do the strict military press.

    Is this okay, or should I count today's OHP as a failure?
    Mark it as failure but check next session to see if you can handle it strict now after having push pressed it this time to determine a reset or not. If someone wanted to do these as push presses in my program I wouldn't complain about it but they need to be consistent and stick with one or the other and in both cases make solid chest contact on each rep.

    Originally Posted by FruitSupernova View Post
    Hey Jason,

    I think I'm having some form issues with the bench, causing progression issues. Out of the bottom, when I press, its really hard for me to keep my scapulas together and on point, and its usually a bigger struggle than the actual press. Is there something inherently wrong with this?
    Read the links he posted below. It shouldn't difficult to keep your scapula together at all, practice it with the empty bar until you get it down. You are touching the chest and coming to a dead stop on the chest before driving up, correct? If your scapula are coming apart at all early in the rep you are way too loose or you are bouncing/reversing before reaching the chest generally. Go back and practice with the bar until you can learn basic bench form correctly, which includes keeping the scapula tight before you start adding weights. You are also keeping elbows tucked and the bar below the nipple correct?

    Originally Posted by mljs54 View Post
    Below is a squat form vid i posted a while back - 135 focusing purely on form. People told me to keep my chest up more which I fixed by keeping my head slightly up as opposed to following my body in the mirror.

    Jason, going to give your program a go starting tomorrow - really like the support you provide throughout the thread

    you tube.com/watch?v=u5W6Hw_3yvI&feature=plcp

    ^ sorry about the messed up link I don't have 50 posts yet to link.
    Please make me another video upright and with the camera a little further back but yeah you are extremely quad dominant with zero heel drive, knee going over your toe and you are loose before you even start. You should consider box squats for a little while because you are not sitting back at all. Squating is like sitting down on a chair.


  9. #789
    Registered User Demesne's Avatar
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    Hey Jason, I just wanted to say that I really appreciate the workout routine. As someone who is quite honestly a newbie to bodybuilding, it's nice to have the basic weightlifting plan laid out in an easy to digest form. Also, I really enjoyed the part of the video where you talked about form for benching, I never realized that was the proper way to bench.

  10. #790
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    Hello Jason,
    I already asked for a proper forms for Big 3. But now can you aware me on proper BB ROW technique for you workout? Should it be Pendlay can you recommend BEST videos to master the form?

  11. #791
    Banned JasonDB's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mak1n View Post
    Hello Jason,
    I already asked for a proper forms for Big 3. But now can you aware me on proper BB ROW technique for you workout? Should it be Pendlay can you recommend BEST videos to master the form?
    No need to even make a video on this one... a basic barbell row is continually messed up by people but is as simple as it gets.



    Bar should move in a straight line 90 degrees from the floor (I see this one messed up every day inside gyms btw it makes you reduce the weight massively to do it at anything but straight up and down from the floor) to your lower chest. Stretch at the bottom for a full ROM and arms should start at 90 degrees from the floor not splayed out in a snatch grip.

  12. #792
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    Hey OP.

    I have been training for a little over a year but only seriously since august, my lifts are still very weak (see sig) and I have never done a 5x5 strength program, only ever worked on hypertrophy in the 6-12 rep ranges.

    I am about to do a cut as my BF% is getting to be a bit high, my question to you is. 1 will this let me maintain strength on my cut? 2. will I see strength gains on my cut, seeing as my lifts are still rather weak! Also my BF% is 16% if that contributes to anything

  13. #793
    Banned JasonDB's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Juicetin View Post
    Hey OP.

    I have been training for a little over a year but only seriously since august, my lifts are still very weak (see sig) and I have never done a 5x5 strength program, only ever worked on hypertrophy in the 6-12 rep ranges.

    I am about to do a cut as my BF% is getting to be a bit high, my question to you is. 1 will this let me maintain strength on my cut? 2. will I see strength gains on my cut, seeing as my lifts are still rather weak! Also my BF% is 16% if that contributes to anything
    This isn't a 5x5 strength program, it is a 5x5 hypertrophy program. If you want a strength program go run Madcows or some WSBB programs.

    Yes this routine is acceptable on a cut and cutting from 16% bf, which is fairly lean, not fat at all, you will probably struggle to gain very much strength on any program, but this can vary from person to person greatly. However any program focused on fairly low rep heavy barbell work is ideal for a natty cut as they are excellent at preservation of LBM. Most bodybuilders who use very high rep high volume programs for cutting are using enough anabolics to not be as concerned about muscle tissue loss.
    Last edited by JasonDB; 11-07-2012 at 06:28 AM.

  14. #794
    Registered User Dengh's Avatar
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    Hey, Jason!
    I am currently on SS (with added dips) but want to switch program due to my chest not progressing at all.
    I watched your video on benching and I am sure that I doing my bench correctly, I have tried deloading but without result.
    In your video you said "benching 3 times a week and standing presses at-least twice a week", is this an alternative for a novice?

    Also, your routine and many other 5x5 programs are not an option for me since I can sadly only spend 1h per session 3 times a week.

  15. #795
    Banned JasonDB's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dengh View Post
    Hey, Jason!
    I am currently on SS (with added dips) but want to switch program due to my chest not progressing at all.
    I watched your video on benching and I am sure that I doing my bench correctly, I have tried deloading but without result.
    In your video you said "benching 3 times a week and standing presses at-least twice a week", is this an alternative for a novice?

    Also, your routine and many other 5x5 programs are not an option for me since I can sadly only spend 1h per session 3 times a week.
    That could be an alternative to a novice. It was more my point of that guys with lagging chest are usually on low frequency bro-splits on top of not executing the movements correctly and fixing these two things would be my first solution to the problem.

  16. #796
    Registered User JMadden's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JasonDB View Post
    No need to even make a video on this one... a basic barbell row is continually messed up by people but is as simple as it gets.



    Bar should move in a straight line 90 degrees from the floor (I see this one messed up every day inside gyms btw it makes you reduce the weight massively to do it at anything but straight up and down from the floor) to your lower chest. Stretch at the bottom for a full ROM and arms should start at 90 degrees from the floor not splayed out in a snatch grip.
    I read through most of this thread and see you reference the video...but it doesn't seem consistent with what you wrote. In the video, there is a signficant angle to his torso - while you don't say that you should be 90 degrees, you do reference that in terms of arm position.

    Further, you indicate that the bar should be pulled to the lower chest - in the video the bar is coming at best to mid-stomach.

    Not trying to nit-pick just looking for detail on how you recommend doing these...finishing up a SL 5x5 and doing Pendlays...seems like you are not recommending Pendlays but the video looks between a strict BOR (paralell) and a Yates row.

    Thanks - and great thread...really appreciate the time you put into this and your expertise.

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    Thumbs up

    Hello

    What weight should the first set be If i want to do 5*5 bench press and my 1RM is 190 ?
    Stats:as of 6/1/2013
    Bench press::190*3-5
    Bent Row:165*6
    Squat:175*10
    Deadlift:: 285*5
    Pull up*20-25

  18. #798
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    Originally Posted by sameaha View Post
    Hello

    What weight should the first set be If i want to do 5*5 bench press and my 1RM is 190 ?
    In the video I think he says 75% of your 1RM for working sets.
    --If you knew better you'd do better!--

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    I was just wondering, if Im doing this for my first time what weight should I start off with? I think my max 5x5 for the BP is 135. I know that I should start off with lesser weight than this but is it necessary to start off with just the bar (I read that you're supposed to start off with the bar even though I think itd be a complete waste of time). What weight would you recommend that I start off with and how did you come up with it? (I want to use the same reasoning for my Squats, Deadlifts, MP, and Bent over Rows). Thanks a lot.

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    Originally Posted by JMadden View Post
    I read through most of this thread and see you reference the video...but it doesn't seem consistent with what you wrote. In the video, there is a signficant angle to his torso - while you don't say that you should be 90 degrees, you do reference that in terms of arm position.

    Further, you indicate that the bar should be pulled to the lower chest - in the video the bar is coming at best to mid-stomach.

    Not trying to nit-pick just looking for detail on how you recommend doing these...finishing up a SL 5x5 and doing Pendlays...seems like you are not recommending Pendlays but the video looks between a strict BOR (paralell) and a Yates row.

    Thanks - and great thread...really appreciate the time you put into this and your expertise.
    The 90 degrees comment was specifically refering to arms at the bottom of the movement in relation to the floor. You would be surprised how many people do not do this.

    Upper stomach as long as you have a completely up and down bar path not one that looks like / which is what I see half the people at my gym do every day and they have no backs and use very light weight, however lower chest will generally give you a straighter bar path and allow a slightly shallower torso angle in relation to the floor. No I do not recommend Pendlay's for this program. I want the novice to feel the eccentric and get a stretch at the bottom rather than focus purely on a explosive concentric early in their development.

    Originally Posted by sameaha View Post
    Hello

    What weight should the first set be If i want to do 5*5 bench press and my 1RM is 190 ?
    Originally Posted by DoolaMadness View Post
    In the video I think he says 75% of your 1RM for working sets.
    Originally Posted by anaeem View Post
    I was just wondering, if Im doing this for my first time what weight should I start off with? I think my max 5x5 for the BP is 135. I know that I should start off with lesser weight than this but is it necessary to start off with just the bar (I read that you're supposed to start off with the bar even though I think itd be a complete waste of time). What weight would you recommend that I start off with and how did you come up with it? (I want to use the same reasoning for my Squats, Deadlifts, MP, and Bent over Rows). Thanks a lot.
    You start with 75% max and ramp up every session until you stall and are forced to do the resets I have broken down. I arrived at this number because most people can only 5x5 80-85% at the most of their max before hitting failure so it starts with enough tension to recruit all available fibers by doing 25 total reps with 75% but gives enough wiggle room to allow ramping.

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    If I were to do this program on mon, tue and thurs, fri do I still increase 5-10 lbs on lifts? I want to train a little more often

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    Originally Posted by JedDaIron View Post
    If I were to do this program on mon, tue and thurs, fri do I still increase 5-10 lbs on lifts? I want to train a little more often
    My program is not for you. My program is for novice lifters seeking to gain as much size as possible while maintaining reasonably balanced development. I'm sure you can find plenty of routines that will let you achieve your primary goal of lifting more often. Best of luck to you.

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    Originally Posted by JasonDB View Post
    The 90 degrees comment was specifically refering to arms at the bottom of the movement in relation to the floor. You would be surprised how many people do not do this.

    Upper stomach as long as you have a completely up and down bar path not one that looks like / which is what I see half the people at my gym do every day and they have no backs and use very light weight, however lower chest will generally give you a straighter bar path and allow a slightly shallower torso angle in relation to the floor. No I do not recommend Pendlay's for this program. I want the novice to feel the eccentric and get a stretch at the bottom rather than focus purely on a explosive concentric early in their development.








    You start with 75% max and ramp up every session until you stall and are forced to do the resets I have broken down. I arrived at this number because most people can only 5x5 80-85% at the most of their max before hitting failure so it starts with enough tension to recruit all available fibers by doing 25 total reps with 75% but gives enough wiggle room to allow ramping.
    Thanks Jason - very helpful as always.

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    Hey jason are u supposed to do workout A on mondays & thursdays ? and B on tuesdays and fridays ? also is it alright if you do seated military press instead ? or even seated dumbbell press ? cheers

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    Originally Posted by TheOne92 View Post
    Hey jason are u supposed to do workout A on mondays & thursdays ? and B on tuesdays and fridays ? also is it alright if you do seated military press instead ? or even seated dumbbell press ? cheers
    I covered this in detail in the video however I will break it back down again.

    1) This is a 3 day a week routine and I don't care what 3 days you use as long as they are not back to back, meaning you have at least one day off between every session.

    2) Standing presses are in there because they work more than just the primary movers and the delts. This program is designed to put overall mass on a novice as quickly as possible, using primarily lifts that recruit the most muscle groups possible rather than trying to find the optimal movement to put the most stress on an individual muscle. Save this for intermediate programs.

    I find it amusing that many early in the thread attacked me for giving people with under 1 year of serious training experience a routine with so much volume in it claiming it was too much. Now I have people wanting to run the program but want to add volume to it. LoL
    Last edited by JasonDB; 11-08-2012 at 02:24 PM.

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    I am sad today

    On my fourth week.

    Had a bad workout today. Possibly lack of sleep, but just had low energy.

    I failed on 3 of the major lifts.

    1. Bench Press: 170 lbs: I am learning to get my form perfect on the bench and had spent quite some time reading the articles by Paul Carter (linked in one of the earlier posts here). I was so focused on trying to get my form right that the lift did not feel natural and I failed on the last rep of each of the 5 sets, effectively doing a 5x4 and a half rep in the end

    2. Rows: 160 lbs: Again I am trying to get my form down. Was paying attention to having my arms at 90 degrees in relation to the floor and the bar moving up and down in a straight line. I used to use a wide grip where my arms would look like / \. Today they looked like ||. However since this position is new to me, I am not used to it and was having trouble bringing the bar all the way up and make contact with the lower chest. Had to cheat a little .

    3. Squats: 190 lbs: I successfully completed 5x5. However the last rep on each set was not as deep as I usually go. I always try to do ATG squats. If fact a couple times, a personal trainer at my gym even came to me and said that I should not go so deep on my squats as it would mess up my knees. He said I should only go an inch below parallel and those are deep squats. Anything deeper than that is inviting trouble. But I still go as deep as I can. So Jason, how deep should the squats be?

    I am kind of depressed with my performance today but hopefully was just a bad day.

    But in general, I guess I need to accept failure as part of the program. I surely cannot just keep on adding 5 lbs to the bar every single workout. Its just that I wasn't hoping I will stall at only my 4th week

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    Is there a place for any rear delt flys in this routine?

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    as the weights start to get heavy/we end our run with the program before moving on to a more intermediate routine, should we be psyching up?
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    Originally Posted by lifebeckons75 View Post
    I am sad today

    On my fourth week.

    Had a bad workout today. Possibly lack of sleep, but just had low energy.

    I failed on 3 of the major lifts.

    1. Bench Press: 170 lbs: I am learning to get my form perfect on the bench and had spent quite some time reading the articles by Paul Carter (linked in one of the earlier posts here). I was so focused on trying to get my form right that the lift did not feel natural and I failed on the last rep of each of the 5 sets, effectively doing a 5x4 and a half rep in the end

    2. Rows: 160 lbs: Again I am trying to get my form down. Was paying attention to having my arms at 90 degrees in relation to the floor and the bar moving up and down in a straight line. I used to use a wide grip where my arms would look like / \. Today they looked like ||. However since this position is new to me, I am not used to it and was having trouble bringing the bar all the way up and make contact with the lower chest. Had to cheat a little .

    3. Squats: 190 lbs: I successfully completed 5x5. However the last rep on each set was not as deep as I usually go. I always try to do ATG squats. If fact a couple times, a personal trainer at my gym even came to me and said that I should not go so deep on my squats as it would mess up my knees. He said I should only go an inch below parallel and those are deep squats. Anything deeper than that is inviting trouble. But I still go as deep as I can. So Jason, how deep should the squats be?

    I am kind of depressed with my performance today but hopefully was just a bad day.

    But in general, I guess I need to accept failure as part of the program. I surely cannot just keep on adding 5 lbs to the bar every single workout. Its just that I wasn't hoping I will stall at only my 4th week
    You sound like you're in the same boat as me. I've been doing this program since the end of September and I'm also beginning to stall on the three major lifts. I'm just hoping after the de-load I will be able to come back even stronger.

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    Originally Posted by lifebeckons75 View Post
    I am sad today

    On my fourth week.

    Had a bad workout today. Possibly lack of sleep, but just had low energy.

    I failed on 3 of the major lifts.

    1. Bench Press: 170 lbs: I am learning to get my form perfect on the bench and had spent quite some time reading the articles by Paul Carter (linked in one of the earlier posts here). I was so focused on trying to get my form right that the lift did not feel natural and I failed on the last rep of each of the 5 sets, effectively doing a 5x4 and a half rep in the end

    2. Rows: 160 lbs: Again I am trying to get my form down. Was paying attention to having my arms at 90 degrees in relation to the floor and the bar moving up and down in a straight line. I used to use a wide grip where my arms would look like / \. Today they looked like ||. However since this position is new to me, I am not used to it and was having trouble bringing the bar all the way up and make contact with the lower chest. Had to cheat a little .

    3. Squats: 190 lbs: I successfully completed 5x5. However the last rep on each set was not as deep as I usually go. I always try to do ATG squats. If fact a couple times, a personal trainer at my gym even came to me and said that I should not go so deep on my squats as it would mess up my knees. He said I should only go an inch below parallel and those are deep squats. Anything deeper than that is inviting trouble. But I still go as deep as I can. So Jason, how deep should the squats be?

    I am kind of depressed with my performance today but hopefully was just a bad day.

    But in general, I guess I need to accept failure as part of the program. I surely cannot just keep on adding 5 lbs to the bar every single workout. Its just that I wasn't hoping I will stall at only my 4th week
    You shouldn't be sad. If I was sad every time I had a session where I couldn't progress I would be extremely depressed these days. LoL You went 4 weeks with continual progress. Do the resets as they are called for and continue making progress.

    There is some evidence that going much below parallel on squats puts extra stress on the knee joint. I recommend parallel to slightly below for general development.

    Originally Posted by Ferello View Post
    Is there a place for any rear delt flys in this routine?
    I favour face pulls over read delt flyes. As they will not impact recovery being a small and light movement add a couple sets of face pulls every other session if you feel you need the addition posterior delt work.

    Originally Posted by snrygo View Post
    as the weights start to get heavy/we end our run with the program before moving on to a more intermediate routine, should we be psyching up?
    You should be psyched up every session short of a deloaded one.

    Originally Posted by nickotine18 View Post
    You sound like you're in the same boat as me. I've been doing this program since the end of September and I'm also beginning to stall on the three major lifts. I'm just hoping after the de-load I will be able to come back even stronger.
    As pointed out above. Getting a month+ of continual progression is solid. You cannot do it indefinately or we would all have 1,000 lbs bench presses before we turn 25. Once you stall, reset and make more progress.

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