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  1. #1651
    Registered User ammons's Avatar
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    OP -- This looks like a fantastic program. I've lifted for 2+ years doing mainly SS and 3-day PPL. Do you think this is a good routine for me?

    Also, on workout B, what do you mean when you say "Barbell Row 5x5 -10%"? What is the 10%?

    Oh and one more question: I was looking to do a 4 day split. Could this be run as such (i.e. every other day or so) or are you suggesting this as a 3 day?

  2. #1652
    Banned JasonDB's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ammons View Post
    OP -- This looks like a fantastic program. I've lifted for 2+ years doing mainly SS and 3-day PPL. Do you think this is a good routine for me?

    Also, on workout B, what do you mean when you say "Barbell Row 5x5 -10%"? What is the 10%?

    Oh and one more question: I was looking to do a 4 day split. Could this be run as such (i.e. every other day or so) or are you suggesting this as a 3 day?
    This is a 3 day program. The workload here could not be run 4 days a week for any length of time unless one is on gear to enhance recovery or an advanced lifter. By -10% you use 10% less weight on barbell rows for workout B than you used on your last workout A in your progression.

  3. #1653
    Registered User ammons's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JasonDB View Post
    This is a 3 day program. The workload here could not be run 4 days a week for any length of time unless one is on gear to enhance recovery or an advanced lifter. By -10% you use 10% less weight on barbell rows for workout B than you used on your last workout A in your progression.
    Okay cool, and what is the rationale for doing rows in both workouts and using 10% less?

  4. #1654
    Banned JasonDB's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ammons View Post
    Okay cool, and what is the rationale for doing rows in both workouts and using 10% less?
    High frequency rowing builds huge amounts of back width and thickness and helps with overall development. The 10% less is because on workout B you do deadlifts first so will not be able to replicate your last weight increase very effectively which would just lead to early resets due to unneeded muscle failure.

  5. #1655
    Registered User ammons's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JasonDB View Post
    High frequency rowing builds huge amounts of back width and thickness and helps with overall development. The 10% less is because on workout B you do deadlifts first so will not be able to replicate your last weight increase very effectively which would just lead to early resets due to unneeded muscle failure.
    Sounds great! And as far as being categorically "intermediate," is this still a good routine?

  6. #1656
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    Should help alot of people out here. Hopefully the video allows people who get bored of reading easily to engage and learn also.

  7. #1657
    Registered User Tal106's Avatar
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    I was just wondering if it's okay to switch the order of the skullcrushers and chinups around? I feel like anytime I do skullcrushers first it kind of hinders my ability to do good chinups because my arms as a whole feel like rubber for a while (or just a little weaker)

    I tried doing chinups first and skullcrushers after last week and i found it went a whole lot better, would it be okay to keep doing this just as a personal preference or will it hinder my results?

  8. #1658
    Registered User furiousrunt's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Tal106 View Post
    I was just wondering if it's okay to switch the order of the skullcrushers and chinups around? I feel like anytime I do skullcrushers first it kind of hinders my ability to do good chinups because my arms as a whole feel like rubber for a while (or just a little weaker)

    I tried doing chinups first and skullcrushers after last week and i found it went a whole lot better, would it be okay to keep doing this just as a personal preference or will it hinder my results?
    Are you sure you're doing them correctly? Jason has a video describing them on his youtube channel.

  9. #1659
    Registered User sackamous's Avatar
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    So far really like the program, I have been adding 5 lbs a workout to my main numbers (squat, bench, Deads) everyother day since I started mid nov ish.
    Today my numbers were
    265 squat 5x5
    230 bench 5x5
    150 row 5x5
    180 shrug (db) 3x8
    115 Skull crushers 3x8
    2 sets of 5 chins and I got 4 on the last set.
    and 30 situps, dont have the equip for the other stuff.

    My question is I have noticed big improvements in my legs, thighs in particular and when im done with either the a or b day. I feel it in my legs and they stiff and can fell the burn for a good while afterwards, however once im done I dont feel it anywhere else. Pushing the numbers up lately im usually fighting for the last set on bench and crushers, but once im done I dont feel it anymore, like I didnt do anything. Is this normal, im sure not seeing the changes in the upper body im seeing down below. This is the arm pics my wife wanted me to take http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=150697223 I know they need a lot more work, but not sure how. Shoud I try and push the numbers up even faster, or do I need more reps to feel the burn, maybe another lift to go with the program, or just stay the corse?
    Thanks again for the great routine I had no clue where to start when I got me equipment, I was sure glad I came across your thread.
    Started at 328lbs
    Current at 227lbs and counting.
    Current goal 225lbs (step by step)

    ()==() York Barbell Club No. 19 ()==()

  10. #1660
    Registered User ottawatim's Avatar
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    Started this program today after several cycles of AllPros. Doing the cutting version. Really enjoyed the workout today. Have to do good mornings due to lack of hyper extension bench. Did kneeling cable crunches with resistance bands until I can find a better way. Started low on some lifts to perfect form. Look forward to some good progress. Got lots of weight to lose.

    Also wanted to mention that this version of skull crushers feels much more effective. Thanks for that tip Jason!

  11. #1661
    Banned JasonDB's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Tal106 View Post
    I was just wondering if it's okay to switch the order of the skullcrushers and chinups around? I feel like anytime I do skullcrushers first it kind of hinders my ability to do good chinups because my arms as a whole feel like rubber for a while (or just a little weaker)

    I tried doing chinups first and skullcrushers after last week and i found it went a whole lot better, would it be okay to keep doing this just as a personal preference or will it hinder my results?
    No you can do it that way if you like.

    Originally Posted by sackamous View Post
    So far really like the program, I have been adding 5 lbs a workout to my main numbers (squat, bench, Deads) everyother day since I started mid nov ish.
    Today my numbers were
    265 squat 5x5
    230 bench 5x5
    150 row 5x5
    180 shrug (db) 3x8
    115 Skull crushers 3x8
    2 sets of 5 chins and I got 4 on the last set.
    and 30 situps, dont have the equip for the other stuff.

    My question is I have noticed big improvements in my legs, thighs in particular and when im done with either the a or b day. I feel it in my legs and they stiff and can fell the burn for a good while afterwards, however once im done I dont feel it anywhere else. Pushing the numbers up lately im usually fighting for the last set on bench and crushers, but once im done I dont feel it anymore, like I didnt do anything. Is this normal, im sure not seeing the changes in the upper body im seeing down below. This is the arm pics my wife wanted me to take http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=150697223 I know they need a lot more work, but not sure how. Shoud I try and push the numbers up even faster, or do I need more reps to feel the burn, maybe another lift to go with the program, or just stay the corse?
    Thanks again for the great routine I had no clue where to start when I got me equipment, I was sure glad I came across your thread.
    Feeling a burn or soreness after is not always an indication of good growth. Your upper body lifts are stronger than your lower body in proportion so perhaps you are not used to hammering your lower body nearly this hard.

    Your size is quite good and you have a very solid foundation already... accordingly you may simply have to live with slower gains at this point. The larger you get the slower you will be able to make future gains. It is just a fact of life we have to deal with.

    Originally Posted by ottawatim View Post
    Started this program today after several cycles of AllPros. Doing the cutting version. Really enjoyed the workout today. Have to do good mornings due to lack of hyper extension bench. Did kneeling cable crunches with resistance bands until I can find a better way. Started low on some lifts to perfect form. Look forward to some good progress. Got lots of weight to lose.

    Also wanted to mention that this version of skull crushers feels much more effective. Thanks for that tip Jason!
    Glad you are enjoying it and you are welcome.

  12. #1662
    Registered User cdogg91's Avatar
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    Do you mean 5sets 5reps?

  13. #1663
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    Originally Posted by cdogg91 View Post
    Do you mean 5sets 5reps?
    yea thats what 5x5 is all about

  14. #1664
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    Question for your intermediate split , I asked on your facebook maybe you didn't see it. Could I split on of the 3 full body in 2 so I would train 4 day a week

    ex:

    squat
    bench
    rows
    bicep
    shrugs

    MP
    tricep
    deadlift
    core

    OFF

    FULLBODY
    OFF
    FULLBODY
    OFF

  15. #1665
    Registered User swedalex's Avatar
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    Hey Jason. My squat 5 rm is at 230 lbs, Deadlift 5rm 265 and Bench 5rm at 165 lbs. Would this program suit me? And also , is there any way to fit in dip in this program? You said in the video that you could swap out CGBP for dips, but can you do both in some way? Thanks

  16. #1666
    Registered User Shoodaddy's Avatar
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    Strength Gain Question

    I'm going to start this program, but being a beginner (and I mean a COMPLETE noob) I'm not sure how to set my goals. What is a reasonable goal to set as far as strength gains? For instance, if my 1RM on bench is 230, where should I attempt to be in, say, 6 months?

  17. #1667
    Banned JasonDB's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BarbellHardon View Post
    Question for your intermediate split , I asked on your facebook maybe you didn't see it. Could I split on of the 3 full body in 2 so I would train 4 day a week

    ex:

    squat
    bench
    rows
    bicep
    shrugs

    MP
    tricep
    deadlift
    core

    OFF

    FULLBODY
    OFF
    FULLBODY
    OFF
    At this point you are writing your own program and you don't understand the methology behind the program I wrote, no I would say you need to start over from ground one and not attempt to change a program designed for 48 spikes in MPS through workload and adjust the frequency or breaking up of the days. You would be better off just making a different program at that point.

    Originally Posted by swedalex View Post
    Hey Jason. My squat 5 rm is at 230 lbs, Deadlift 5rm 265 and Bench 5rm at 165 lbs. Would this program suit me? And also , is there any way to fit in dip in this program? You said in the video that you could swap out CGBP for dips, but can you do both in some way? Thanks
    Why would you want to add volume to this program? The number one criticism of it by other experts is that I may have too much total volume in it for less advanced bodybuilders.

    Originally Posted by Shoodaddy View Post
    I'm going to start this program, but being a beginner (and I mean a COMPLETE noob) I'm not sure how to set my goals. What is a reasonable goal to set as far as strength gains? For instance, if my 1RM on bench is 230, where should I attempt to be in, say, 6 months?
    You can't without getting an assessment of how you personally and genetically adapt to training first. One guy might only bench 150 lbs 6 months into this program... another who is just genetically elite and built to bench press, or just generally big starting out naturally might hit 300 lbs in the same time frame.

  18. #1668
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    Originally Posted by JasonDB View Post
    At this point you are writing your own program and you don't understand the methology behind the program I wrote, no I would say you need to start over from ground one and not attempt to change a program designed for 48 spikes in MPS through workload and adjust the frequency or breaking up of the days. You would be better off just making a different program at that point.
    Got ya. Thanks for answering. Im sure your training is good for strength gain, but if one was looking for strength as is first objective than hypertrophy later, would you still recommend your 3x full body? Or Madcow would be more appropriate?

  19. #1669
    Banned JasonDB's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BarbellHardon View Post
    Got ya. Thanks for answering. Im sure your training is good for strength gain, but if one was looking for strength as is first objective than hypertrophy later, would you still recommend your 3x full body? Or Madcow would be more appropriate?
    If strength/power is the primary objective I would work with the WSBB conjugate system as a starting point. Something like 5/3/1 or madcows would not be bad either. However no my progam is not appropriate for strength athletes or powerlifters this is a starting bodybuilder program to set their foundation.

  20. #1670
    Registered User freakhill's Avatar
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    agility and strength

    Hello,

    Thank you for putting up this tight and simple workout.
    I'm a complete novice. Listening to friends I designed a diet and workout that I followed during 2 months with great results (basically eatings tons of chicken, potato, broccoli 4-6 times a day and exercising hard once or twice a week with some cycling and lots of squats and pull-ups).
    I got involved in dance and stopped exercising. Now I want to get back to a nicer frame and I am interested in a more structured workout.
    Do you think your workout is appropriate for me? I aim strength and agility with a nice frame but not too much hypertrophy. I'm aiming for a good latin dancer body.
    I'm doing daily dance training and I suffer from hemorrhoids too, should I adapt something from your plan or is it totally fine?? I'll mainly workout after training, so around 9-10-11PM.

    Best regards,
    Freakhill

  21. #1671
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    Originally Posted by JasonDB View Post
    Why would you want to add volume to this program? The number one criticism of it by other experts is that I may have too much total volume in it for less advanced bodybuilders.
    Increasing the volume isn't what I am after, but yes, I guess the volume will get higher if doing both exercises. Dips just seems to agree with me and I'd like to include those somehow. Then perhaps I should just swap CGPB for dips?

  22. #1672
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    Hey Jason, what would you recommend is the best angle to do incline DB curls? I've been doing them at about a 65-degree angle. I was wondering if it would be better to decline from the angle I have been using to about a 45-degree angle. Is there an ideal angle? Or is it more user preference? Thanks.

    I love this workout, seeing really good gains already at approx. one month in.
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    Registered User jemag's Avatar
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    Hey Jason,

    after watching the video it seems that the program is to be executed with weight going to failure, yet you seem to be an advocate of avoiding to go to failure on a video on your youtube channel (correct me if I misunderstood, my english is not the greatest). Is there a reason this program uses "going-to-failure"?

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    Originally Posted by jemag View Post
    Hey Jason,

    after watching the video it seems that the program is to be executed with weight going to failure, yet you seem to be an advocate of avoiding to go to failure on a video on your youtube channel (correct me if I misunderstood, my english is not the greatest). Is there a reason this program uses "going-to-failure"?
    It's all about when and how often we go to failure. If we keep adding weight to the bar, it's inevitable to hit failure occasionally. With the resets built into this program, hitting failure means lowering the weight for the exercise so that we don't continue to hit failure on that exercise. So yes, occasionally going to failure is inevitable but what he doesn't advocate going to failure often or on purpose as a goal like "5 sets of as many as possible".

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    Registered User HM37's Avatar
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    The day after workout B I felt a slight pain next to my left shoulder blade, I assume it is the lower trap muscle and from bent over rows (the only compound lift I haven't been doing consistently over the last few months) but I'm pretty sure I am doing good form...slightly wider than shoulder grip, 45 degrees standing, slightly concaved lower back and retracting my scapula...any tips?

  26. #1676
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    Jason,

    Thanks much for this program and your youtube videos. I love how your videos cover so many relevant questions and I marvel at how you tirelessly answer questions for everyone. Besides what you said in your "stick to basics" video, the other big pattern I really notice is people wanting to be spoonfed information that is right in front of them already. If you aren't willing to watch the whole video closely and do a simple search of the thread, you're probably not going to put in the hard work consistently month after month to make the changes you are hoping for.

    I've seen good gains on the program in 2 months despite the annoyances of some injuries and being sick holding me back a bit. I dieted about 75% of last year and lost just under 70lbs of flab. I was doing Starting Strength for 2-3 months before your program. I felt it was low in volume so your program let me focus and work hard on additional areas rather than experimenting to try to find a mish-mash of other things to do.

    Here's how my 5x5 numbers went in the two months:

    Deadlift: 235 to 295
    Bench: 195 to 220
    OHP: 125 to 150

    My squat is my number one priority and it's improved a lot. However due to injuries I'm having to focus on form and mobility a lot and only add weight slowly.

    Anyways I figured you deserved to hear positive feedback from another person using the program so thanks again and keep up the good work.

  27. #1677
    Registered User Flat4T's Avatar
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    Has anybody made a spreadsheet for this routine? like with allpro's etc?

  28. #1678
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    Originally Posted by Flat4T View Post
    Has anybody made a spreadsheet for this routine? like with allpro's etc?
    why would you need one?
    write down the exercises. add 5 lbs every time you lift and can do it....
    when you fail 2 lifts in row reset the weights appropriately. no "spreadsheet" nedded.
    i did draw up a cheat sheet for my lifts. but that's basically just to keep track of ll my lifts and half weights for faster plate moving...
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  29. #1679
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    Originally Posted by swedalex View Post
    Increasing the volume isn't what I am after, but yes, I guess the volume will get higher if doing both exercises. Dips just seems to agree with me and I'd like to include those somehow. Then perhaps I should just swap CGPB for dips?
    While you could keep in mind CGBP is a better accessory for flat bench, which you are using as a primary mass builder here. You might be removing some of the synergy of the program for your chest and triceps if you do so. I want your bench going up quickly.

    Originally Posted by BigVic92 View Post
    Hey Jason, what would you recommend is the best angle to do incline DB curls? I've been doing them at about a 65-degree angle. I was wondering if it would be better to decline from the angle I have been using to about a 45-degree angle. Is there an ideal angle? Or is it more user preference? Thanks.

    I love this workout, seeing really good gains already at approx. one month in.
    I prefer a very steap incline. You want just enough angle to get a good stretch on the bicep at the bottom, but no so much that you have to reduce weight from excessive shoulder rotation. Play around with it until you get just enough for that stretch at the bottom.

    Originally Posted by jemag View Post
    Hey Jason,

    after watching the video it seems that the program is to be executed with weight going to failure, yet you seem to be an advocate of avoiding to go to failure on a video on your youtube channel (correct me if I misunderstood, my english is not the greatest). Is there a reason this program uses "going-to-failure"?
    I don't advocate planned or consistent failure. Some people on my program will go an entire month without hitting failure on a single lift. When you do start hitting failure you reduce the weight. Failure is just a side effect of hard progression. I do not have people training to failure, I have them consistently adding weight until they start failing then reset and start over.

    Originally Posted by UberSuper View Post
    It's all about when and how often we go to failure. If we keep adding weight to the bar, it's inevitable to hit failure occasionally. With the resets built into this program, hitting failure means lowering the weight for the exercise so that we don't continue to hit failure on that exercise. So yes, occasionally going to failure is inevitable but what he doesn't advocate going to failure often or on purpose as a goal like "5 sets of as many as possible".
    This.

    Originally Posted by HM37 View Post
    The day after workout B I felt a slight pain next to my left shoulder blade, I assume it is the lower trap muscle and from bent over rows (the only compound lift I haven't been doing consistently over the last few months) but I'm pretty sure I am doing good form...slightly wider than shoulder grip, 45 degrees standing, slightly concaved lower back and retracting my scapula...any tips?
    It is just a minor pull from being a new lifter. Foam roll it, do some hanging stretches for it and let your back rest for a session then reassess it in a couple days.

    Originally Posted by UberSuper View Post
    Jason,

    Thanks much for this program and your youtube videos. I love how your videos cover so many relevant questions and I marvel at how you tirelessly answer questions for everyone. Besides what you said in your "stick to basics" video, the other big pattern I really notice is people wanting to be spoonfed information that is right in front of them already. If you aren't willing to watch the whole video closely and do a simple search of the thread, you're probably not going to put in the hard work consistently month after month to make the changes you are hoping for.

    I've seen good gains on the program in 2 months despite the annoyances of some injuries and being sick holding me back a bit. I dieted about 75% of last year and lost just under 70lbs of flab. I was doing Starting Strength for 2-3 months before your program. I felt it was low in volume so your program let me focus and work hard on additional areas rather than experimenting to try to find a mish-mash of other things to do.

    Here's how my 5x5 numbers went in the two months:

    Deadlift: 235 to 295
    Bench: 195 to 220
    OHP: 125 to 150

    My squat is my number one priority and it's improved a lot. However due to injuries I'm having to focus on form and mobility a lot and only add weight slowly.

    Anyways I figured you deserved to hear positive feedback from another person using the program so thanks again and keep up the good work.
    Nice progress, and you are almost at 2pps on the 5x5 bench so nice work. You are correct in people not watching the whole video or doing a thread search. A lot of them will wash out 2-3 months into a program this hard. This is a pretty brutal training protocol. It is intended to stimulate maximum hypertrophy while building a strength base and improving workload tolerance in the novice bodybuilder to setup their foundation for future training and gains. Accordingly it will push most near their recovery limits.

  30. #1680
    Registered User Teryaki's Avatar
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    Will i benefit from this routine ? been lifting for 2 years, i can bench about 264lbs max, tho my squats are horrible due to not training them in the past, 264lbs max & deadlifts i have no idea, havent done them in a year, i can shoulder press 77lbs for 8 reps and do 9 reps on 88lbs dumbbell press on a small incline on chest

    been doing regular bb style splits, and feel like my progress is stalling abit, and im really confused as to what training routine to take up.

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