Ogus & Helms Q&A's

[sawoobley]

LOL, at first I was like...dayum that's cold

lol, I thought this as well. I was trying to figure out why the harsh comments.

[greekmanman]

lol, I thought this as well. I was trying to figure out why the harsh comments.

lol no no.

Eric may be coaching me in the future lolz

[JasonDB]

There actually is since it gets brought up every 6 months lol
or rather there is a post I made where I linked like 15 different times over the past 5 years where I talked about my past SD usage openly and in the context of how it has effected me while competing in drug tested feds

LOL, at first I was like...dayum that's cold

but yeah, before I was seriously considering competing I did a handful of cycles of PH/PS in 05-06. Not really something I hide, something I hid, or whatever. Decided in late 06 after attending a INBF show as a spectator that that was something inspirational to me that I wanted to do, and stopped taking hormonal stuff. Then in 07 I contacted the orgs to see where I was eligible to compete so I wouldn't break any rules, competed where i was eligible in 07, then again in 09, which included more orgs as the 2 year PH/PS period passed for the INBF, then again in 11. Not really a unique story, probably a good third of natural competitors have taken ph/ps or used to be full blown steriod users in the past. I've talked to many of them at shows.
Decided they didn't want to use drugs, for whatever reason, and then wanted to keep competing. I really don't get the hullabaloo

I think the reason for the bullbaloo, and many jimmies being rustled when people learn about this, is that many built their foundations with heafty use then went natural but you and I both know many will stay far larger than they were natty. Went I went off the gear in 2004 and even took 6 months off from training, when I went back to training clean I had 19" arms and a 52" chest again inside of 6 months and basically kept that size for a couple years until I got really sick later and spent months in bed... now after that I found regaining muscle difficult due to complete detraining, medical issues elevated cortisol production (medical cause), however I've no doubt in my mind that had I not gotten sick and forced into 2+ years of downtime I would have kept that size for many years.

Now granted I am not judging these guys I honestly don't care what they do, and I personally consider someone to be competing drug-free in their sport if they came off their stuff 3 months ago and can pass a test, however it isn't being honest to the kids who are looking up at some of the bigger natural bodybuilders who built their size on gear, came off for a few years but basically maintained more muscle mass than they really would have had and the younger kids honestly think that with a few years of really hard work, some whey and creatine they might obtain that. However, it is what it is, and there isn't much that can be done about it.

[Ondemand]

Isn't Ka0s Chad?

this whole forum is fkn Chad, even I'm Chad

[necon76]

this whole forum is fkn Chad, even I'm Chad

No, I'm Chad.

[Quelly]

I think the reason for the bullbaloo, and many jimmies being rustled when people learn about this, is that many built their foundations with heafty use then went natural but you and I both know many will stay far larger than they were natty. Went I went off the gear in 2004 and even took 6 months off from training, when I went back to training clean I had 19" arms and a 52" chest again inside of 6 months and basically kept that size for a couple years until I got really sick later and spent months in bed... now after that I found regaining muscle difficult due to complete detraining, medical issues elevated cortisol production (medical cause), however I've no doubt in my mind that had I not gotten sick and forced into 2+ years of downtime I would have kept that size for many years.

Now granted I am not judging these guys I honestly don't care what they do, and I personally consider someone to be competing drug-free in their sport if they came off their stuff 3 months ago and can pass a test, however it isn't being honest to the kids who are looking up at some of the bigger natural bodybuilders who built their size on gear, came off for a few years but basically maintained more muscle mass than they really would have had and the younger kids honestly think that with a few years of really hard work, some whey and creatine they might obtain that. However, it is what it is, and there isn't much that can be done about it.

No I could see that, I just don't know if I'm exactly the poster boy for massive use of steroids, then going natural and keeping a **** ton of size and giving kids false hope lol.
I didn't have that experience you had really at all. But probably because I did a handful of 3-4 week periods of OTC PS/PH with 6 oxo as my post cycle support. I mean I have seen what stacking inject-able steroids with orals can do to a physique in a couple years of 12 week cycles, and it just doesn't compare you know?
And I'm really not sure how much one can keep. I certainly don't think someone can keep more than their genetic potential if they go off. I just don't see how levels of lean body mass that are only attainable by supraphysiological levels of hormones can be maintained with normal hormone levels.
Take a look at Erik Alstrup for example. He was actually an IFBB pro, turned pro in like 98 or 99 I believe, he stopped lifting, went off drugs in the early 2000's I believe, did triathlons for a while, then got back into bodybuilding and wanted to compete again drug free and is now an IFPA pro. He's been drug free over a decade and he looks very natural at this point, but is competing probably 50lbs lighter gauging by pictures. And he has a good physique, like top 5 at IFPA pro shows, but there are lifetime naturals who have placed ahead of him, Jeff Alberts did this past year, he was 2nd at the IFPA KC show and Erik was 3rd I believe. So it's not like the guys we are talking about are unbeatable.
I think 7 years clean and the size you once had on the stuff will be greatly diminished. But don't take that as me saying there isn't any advantage to having been on stuff.
But anyway, if someone needs a villain to point a finger at for being a liar claiming to be something they aren't and giving false hopes and being sneaky and not transparent...I'm a poor substitute, and in fact I'd say using me to support some claim that natties are all drug using liars or whatever, just shows the weakness of the argument, or the intellectual dishonesty, or the ignorance of the person making that argument.

EDIT and to be clear JasonDB I don't think you are making that argument and I'm not referring to you..figured I'd be clear after greekmanman accidentally verbally trashed my physique lol

[Ka0s]

Dude... so your argument is "It's okay because I've used less drugs than people who have used more drugs than I?"
SD is extremely potent lol, 4 weeks of SD will yield results which are >>>>> a mild 12 week injectable cycle (such as T only)
I don't know how much you personally retained or how long it's been or w/e but in my mind anyone who has used in the past has a clear advantage over someone who hasn't.
Not knocking you personally but it just goes to show how stupid of a pursuit "natural" BB'ing is

brb Jay Cutler decides to quit the IFBB and become a natural bodybuilder. 3 Years later shows up on stage at a nice 5'8 215 lbs ripped
does this sound right to you?

For the record I think it's admirable that you are open about your past usage

[JasonDB]

EDIT and to be clear JasonDB I don't think you are making that argument and I'm not referring to you..figured I'd be clear after greekmanman accidentally verbally trashed my physique lol

Haha no I wasn't making that argument your size would be obtainable for them, but you know the guys to which I am refering.

I think most likely in my own case because I was on for literally 2.5 years straight (if you count bridging as being on... I don't believing in bicycling philosophy) it massively changes set points and there was probably some hyperplasia taking place, I got sick 3 years after going clean and was still maintaining more LBM than I think my frame would naturally hold, although I had kind of stagenated for a year. Granted perhaps after 7 it would have diminished, so I cannot say.

[ven33]

Why does every thread here turn into discussion about enhancers?

[JasonDB]

Why does every thread here turn into discussion about enhancers?

Bodybuilding forum kind of an unavoidable topic... I didn't start this one btw. I will say this much, the fact that there are actually threads that exist on this forum that don't specifically reference that topic makes bb.com a bit unique really.

[ErickStevens]

Kaos, we get it. You like steroids. Cool.

[ko300zx]

Kaos, Jason, we get it. You like steroids. Cool.

There we go.

[Geoloop]

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things

[Ka0s]

Kaos, we get it. You like steroids. Cool.

I also like integrity

[JasonDB]

There we go.

My user title says I am natural, and I can pass a drug test. The ability to pass a drug test is clearly the criteria by which this subforum decides who is natty in the bodybuilding world, and I would therefore prefer if members of the Nut Misc refer to me as a natty from now on. Thank you.

[germaine07]

Why all the hate for Eric? He experimented a little like 6-7 years ago. What's the big deal? I highly doubt the small amount he experimented with has any significant effect on his current physique....

[Ka0s]

Why all the hate for Eric? He experimented a little like 6-7 years ago. What's the big deal? I highly doubt the small amount he experimented with has any significant effect on his current physique....

ok thanks for your professional opinion, guy who has no right to have an opinion.

[germaine07]

ok thanks for your professional opinion, guy who has no right to have an opinion.

You must still be all hormonal fro them supps your taking.

[Ka0s]

just saiyan lol, guy gains 10lbs of muscle through unnatty means, never loses it, competes "naturally"
ok

[ko300zx]

just saiyan lol, guy gains 10lbs of muscle through unnatty means, never loses it, competes "naturally"
ok

I think it's sad if someone "supplements" to gain more than they could naturally, then pawns it off as natural because they stopped long enough to pass a test or qualify for some show. However if someone took something nearly a decade ago, and hasn't since, I don't think they are carrying around anything extra than if they would have remained completely natural. If anything they just sped up the process a hair.

Too bad half the time you can't tell the difference unless someone admits it.

[Ka0s]

I think it's sad if someone "supplements" to gain more than they could naturally, then pawns it off as natural because they stopped long enough to pass a test or qualify for some show. However if someone took something nearly a decade ago, and hasn't since, I don't think they are carrying around anything extra than if they would have remained completely natural. If anything they just sped up the process a hair.

Too bad half the time you can't tell the difference unless someone admits it.

Cliffs-
It's okay for natural bodybuilders to use steroids as long as they stay below their "genetic limit"


are u ****ing serious.... really though

[germaine07]

Cliffs-
It's okay for natural bodybuilders to use steroids as long as they stay below their "genetic limit"


are u ****ing serious.... really though

I think what he's trying to say is that if you've been drug free for a long period of time and have not done heavy usage, then in majority of cases they will be returned to a natural state.

[Ka0s]

I think what he's trying to say is that if you've been drug free for a long period of time and have not done heavy usage, then in majority of cases they will be returned to a natural state.

Why? Why would that muscle just disappear if you continue to train and eat
esp considering E.H. isn't... well... overly huge, to put it nicely

[germaine07]

Why? Why would that muscle just disappear if you continue to train and eat
esp considering E.H. isn't... well... overly huge, to put it nicely

I'm no expert on this topic so I'll bow out but I'm not sure it quite works like that. Why else would people continuously cycle? You think those Pro's would still be so big if they came off for a couple of years?

[Ka0s]

I'm no expert on this topic so I'll bow out but I'm not sure it quite works like that. Why else would people continuously cycle? You think those Pro's would still be so big if they came off for a couple of years?

not to go too much into it but the more size u hold the more hormone you need in your blood to maintain it
obviously you can't maintain 5'8 225lbs 8% naturally, you will shrink down when u stop using. you need a certain base of gear just to maintain this, then to get even bigger u have to blast more
but if you are eric helms 6'0 165 contest shape liar filt, well below even natural limit, his body isn't just gonna start burning muscle (regardless of how it was acquired) (as long as he still trains + calorie surplus) just because there is no more hormone in blood

essentially in 4 weeks he probably made a year's worth of progress
#NattyBB

[Ka0s]

furthermore i think it's reprehensible to use drugs until u find out that you can't hack it against other drug users, then say "whoops sorry nevermind" and compete against natties. and don't tell me you thought it was a supp bro

[vitornoob]

[germaine07]

not to go too much into it but the more size u hold the more hormone you need in your blood to maintain it
obviously you can't maintain 5'8 225lbs 8% naturally, you will shrink down when u stop using. you need a certain base of gear just to maintain this, then to get even bigger u have to blast more
but if you are eric helms 6'0 165 contest shape liar filt, well below even natural limit, his body isn't just gonna start burning muscle (regardless of how it was acquired) (as long as he still trains + calorie surplus) just because there is no more hormone in blood

essentially in 4 weeks he probably made a year's worth of progress
#NattyBB

But after all this time, do you not think he would be close to genetic potential anyway and that small usage was just, a shortcut per se?

[JasonDB]

I'm no expert on this topic so I'll bow out but I'm not sure it quite works like that. Why else would people continuously cycle? You think those Pro's would still be so big if they came off for a couple of years?

Not going to go into vast detail and explain who can, or how they can do it, maintain their size and who can't other than to point out:

Apples to oranges you are comparing cell tech to huge cocktails of drugs at least one of which is more anabolic than cell tech. If the top 10 guys at the Olympia this year went on only tech they would be smaller next year. You absolutely cannot compare them to guys who use just teh tech.

[Ka0s]

But after all this time, do you not think he would be close to genetic potential anyway and that small usage was just, a shortcut per se?

OK, so how is it fair for the people he competes against who didn't use this little shortcut of gaining >1lb of lbm per week