Patriots owner: Tom Brady is better than Joe Montana

[TranceOfPeace]

yeah man the stats superbowl rings, accolades totally back that up. Really relavant to the whole Brady vs Montana debate.

The point is that its pointless to bring in passing yards and pass TD's in this era because it's a different game at this point.

[GrecoRoman]

Christ man, I thought you were on the level before that whole Hernandez discussion but now I see you're just another blind homer.

You're right that success in one era doesn't translate directly into another but Montana was on another level as a QB in his era. The only guy that was up there with him was Marino who never got a ring. Montana was known for coming through in the clutch and on the biggest stage his numbers were ridiculous in a time when it was much harder to pass the ball.

He may not be throwing for 5000 yards and 50 TDs but it's not like Brady is doing that every year either. However given Montana's play vs his peers at the time and the rule changes allowing the passing game to really explode what is it about Montana that he couldn't handle throwing the ball more?

Guys ran the ball more back then because it was hard to throw the ball. I'm sure if the rules of today were around for Montana they'd be throwing the ball a sh*tload.

Montana had the accuracy, arm, mobility, intelligence and poise that you look for in a great QB. So once again, what are you going to argue that he couldn't hack in todays NFL?

How is saying that the debate is there to be had and Brady is a ring away from being the GOAT a homer? Almost everybody will be comparing these two when Brady retires and a lot of analysts share the same sentiment that I do. Because Montana had Bill Wash and the west coast offense along with only one other Quaterback in his class somehow adds to his legacy? Didn't know that guys like Peyton and Brees having great seasons as well diminishes what Brady is doing. You take away from Brady's accomplishments for playing in an era where its easier to pass but you would throw a bitchfit if I took away from Montana's superbowls because it was much easier to be a dynasty and win multiple superbowls pre salary cap era.

The point is that its pointless to bring in passing yards and pass TD's in this era because it's a different game at this point.

so is bringing up the rings debat pointless as well because this is the salary cap era?

brb can never compare teams/players from pre '94 to post '94.

[iamgenus]

How is saying that the debate is there to be had and Brady is a ring away from being the GOAT a homer? Almost everybody will be comparing these two when Brady retires and a lot of analysts share the same sentiment that I do. Because Montana had Bill Wash and the west coast offense along with only one other Quaterback in his class somehow adds to his legacy? Didn't know that guys like Peyton and Brees having great seasons as well diminishes what Brady is doing. You take away from Brady's accomplishments for playing in an era where its easier to pass but you would throw a bitchfit if I took away from Montana's superbowls because it was much easier to be a dynasty and win multiple superbowls pre salary cap era.

I'm calling you a homer because you're trying to downplay a guy you never even saw play using retarded logic. I never said Brady can't be the GOAT or that he's not even in discussion. Just imo right now Montana is still the GOAT given what he did at a time when it was a lot harder to be a QB, in much tougher competition. As I mentioned before the NFC dominated the league in the 80s and 90s. Out of the 20 years since 1980 to 2000 the AFC won the SB 4 times.

[isp]

brb every qb throws >5k yards now

[GrecoRoman]

I'm calling you a homer because you're trying to downplay a guy you never even saw play using retarded logic. I never said Brady can't be the GOAT or that he's not even in discussion. Just imo right now Montana is still the GOAT given what he did at a time when it was a lot harder to be a QB, in much tougher competition. As I mentioned before the NFC dominated the league in the 80s and 90s. Out of the 20 years since 1980 to 2000 the AFC won the SB 4 times.

-Im calling him the GOAT but saying another player can catch him is downgrading him.
-No, it wasn't harder to be a QB, it was harder to pass. There is a difference.
-You saying the NFC was dominant does what for your argument?

brb every qb throws >5k yards now

3 Quaterbacks do it=every Quarterback does it....

[CobyWan]

And let's not play the WCO was way ahead of it's time thing. They were in the 3rd season of running that offense when they won their first SB. Let's not act like they just invented the forward pass here.

It was way ahead of it's time. There's a reason Walsh earned the nickname "The Genius" for his design of the offense. And there's a reason every team in the league still uses the same principles that made up the WCO.


I'm not sure what the third season running that offense has to do with anything other than strengthen my own argument. They went from 2-15 to 6-10 to winning the super bowl. And you're trying to discredit the importance of Walsh's offensive system into that success? lmao


I know you will defend anything 49ers related like your life depended on it but get real. It's not a knock on Montana but it's a fact he had that advantage when he played. Stop being so defensive all the time.

[EastCoastNiner]

I'm calling you a homer because you're trying to downplay a guy you never even saw play using retarded logic. I never said Brady can't be the GOAT or that he's not even in discussion. Just imo right now Montana is still the GOAT given what he did at a time when it was a lot harder to be a QB, in much tougher competition. As I mentioned before the NFC dominated the league in the 80s and 90s. Out of the 20 years since 1980 to 2000 the AFC won the SB 4 times.

I'm not going to agree or disagree with you here, but there are some flaws I'm seeing in your argument here, as well as arguments from the other side as well.

1. I think the entire argument of it "being much harder to be a QB in the 80's" is often overplayed. I HATEEEEEEE the pussification of the NFL nowadays, I absolutely hate it, but at the same time the players today are much bigger and more physical than they were in the 80's. The hits are going to be a lot harder as well.

2. Why are you mentioning 1980-2000? You're including eight years that he did not play in the NFC into your argument. Those Cowboys Super Bowl Championships came after Montana was gone from the 49er'. I understand your point is that the NFC was far superior to the AFC was a whole back then, which is 100% correct, but it seems disingenuous to extend his time period for this argument.


Here's the thing with Brady. When he won his three Super Bowls, there is no doubt the defense was a major component, even though Brady did contribute a lot. However, Brady has seemed to turn into Peyton Manning in the sense of his regular season success, but coming up slightly short in the playoffs. It sucks because Brady could EASILY have two more rings (I think three more...2006 AFCCG), but he doesn't. I want to see him continue to put up historic numbers this year while winning a ring before I give him the GOAT title without question. If he wins a ring this years while putting up great statistical numbers, I'd have to put him above Montana, but he needs to do that first.

[iamgenus]

It was way ahead of it's time. There's a reason Walsh earned the nickname "The Genius" for his design of the offense. And there's a reason every team in the league still uses the same principles that made up the WCO.


I know you will defend anything 49ers related like your life depended on it but get real. It's not a knock on Montana but it's a fact he had that advantage when he played. Stop being so defensive all the time.

I dont defend everything 49ers but in this case I will.

Was it something different? Yes it was. Was it something ground breaking where nobody knew how to stop it? No. Montana was just great at running it which is a reason the offense took off when he took over. Short and intermediate passing - move the chains and go for the easy plays rather than bombs.

After 3 years and beyond the shock factor is gone. I mean at what point do you consider it "figured out"? Hell Walsh actually used the offense when he was still with the Bengals which was 10 years before the 49ers won their first Superbowl. Once again at what point is the novelty factor gone? Should we still consider the WCO this crazy thing nobody has been able to figure out yet?

People try to find any little thing to discredit what the 49ers did those years. I see it all the time.

Joe Montana thread - enter somebody who never watched the guy play and any of the following show up
"He had Jerry Rice the GOAT to throw to"
"His numbers weren't that impressive"
"He had a ton of talent around him"
"It was the system"
...and the "WCO was new and defenses didn't know what to do"

Jerry Rice thread - once again someone who didn't see Rice play
"He had Montana/Young throwing to him"
"It was the system"
"He's not that fast"


Same old crap. Give the guys credit when it's deserved.

[iamgenus]

I'm not going to agree or disagree with you here, but there are some flaws I'm seeing in your argument here, as well as arguments from the other side as well.

1. I think the entire argument of it "being much harder to be a QB in the 80's" is often overplayed. I HATEEEEEEE the pussification of the NFL nowadays, I absolutely hate it, but at the same time the players today are much bigger and more physical than they were in the 80's. The hits are going to be a lot harder as well.

2. Why are you mentioning 1980-2000? You're including eight years that he did not play in the NFC into your argument. Those Cowboys Super Bowl Championships came after Montana was gone from the 49er'. I understand your point is that the NFC was far superior to the AFC was a whole back then, which is 100% correct, but it seems disingenuous to extend his time period for this argument.


Here's the thing with Brady. When he won his three Super Bowls, there is no doubt the defense was a major component, even though Brady did contribute a lot. However, Brady has seemed to turn into Peyton Manning in the sense of his regular season success, but coming up slightly short in the playoffs. It sucks because Brady could EASILY have two more rings (I think three more...2006 AFCCG), but he doesn't. I want to see him continue to put up historic numbers this year while winning a ring before I give him the GOAT title without question. If he wins a ring this years while putting up great statistical numbers, I'd have to put him above Montana, but he needs to do that first.

1. Ah no it's not overplayed. It's FACT. Lawrence Taylor, Reggie White, Deion Sanders, Rod Woodson, Darrell Green, Bruce Smith - some of the games best defensive players played those years. They could hit the QB pretty much any way they wanted and not get fined or have a flag thrown. Receivers could be jammed and beat up while they're trying to break free. You had to almost tackle the receiver before the ball was thrown to have PI called.

Not to mention once again - we're talking about QBs here. Is Montana's accuracy somehow going to decline because the defenders weight 20 lbs more? It's all relative in that regard - defenders are bigger and faster but so are the offensive players. You either have the tools to be a great QB or you don't. Montana did. Now what isn't relative are the RULES.

Slightly smaller/slower players + lax rules make it a lot tougher for offenses than bigger/faster players + pussy rules. Anyone trying to argue this is just delusional.

2. If you understand my point then why worry about the semantics? Obviously I put a 20 year period to show just how lopsided the competition was. It would be even better for my point if i said 1981 to 1990 then only once did an AFC team win the SB.

I happen to think very highly of Tom Brady and if he wins another ring I'd have to put him as the best also but right now Montana takes it. Careers back then didn't last as long and if Montana didn't get that back injury who knows how many rings he could've walked away with.

[CCAurora]

Steve Young was an excellent QB so no he's not on the low side of HOF QBs. You can't play a guy when the whole year the other QB is putting up a ridiculous season and takes you that far. Not like Young had a horrible game either. Dallas just burned the niners D that game.

As for the rest of his career that's the same amount of rings as Mr. Manning and the competition in the NFC was a lot tougher. Brb NFC team winning SB from 1984 to 1996.

Modern-Era Hall of Fame QB's:

Troy Aikman 1989-2000
George Blanda (Also PK) 1949-1958, 1960-1975
Terry Bradshaw 1970-1983
Len Dawson 1957-1975
John Elway 1983-1998
Dan Fouts 1973-1987
Otto Graham 1946-1955
Bob Griese 1967-1980
Sonny Jurgensen 1957-1974
Jim Kelly 1986-1996
Bobby Layne 1948-1962
Dan Marino 1983-1999
Joe Montana 1979-1994
Warren Moon 1984-2000
Joe Namath 1965-1977
Bart Starr 1956-1971
Roger Staubach 1969-1979
Fran Tarkenton 1961-1978
Y.A. Tittle 1948-1964
Johnny Unitas 1956-1973
Norm Van Brocklin 1949-1960
Bob Waterfield 1945-1952
Steve Young 1985-1999

If you put him in anything but the lower tier of this list, you should probably disable your account.

[zenzone]

I would give Montana the edge on this one, even though I find Montana irritating.

[iamgenus]

Modern-Era Hall of Fame QB's:

Troy Aikman 1989-2000
George Blanda (Also PK) 1949-1958, 1960-1975
Terry Bradshaw 1970-1983
Len Dawson 1957-1975
John Elway 1983-1998
Dan Fouts 1973-1987
Otto Graham 1946-1955
Bob Griese 1967-1980
Sonny Jurgensen 1957-1974
Jim Kelly 1986-1996
Bobby Layne 1948-1962
Dan Marino 1983-1999
Joe Montana 1979-1994
Warren Moon 1984-2000
Joe Namath 1965-1977
Bart Starr 1956-1971
Roger Staubach 1969-1979
Fran Tarkenton 1961-1978
Y.A. Tittle 1948-1964
Johnny Unitas 1956-1973
Norm Van Brocklin 1949-1960
Bob Waterfield 1945-1952
Steve Young 1985-1999

If you put him in anything but the lower tier of this list, you should probably disable your account.

Guess I should disable my account then. I'd only put Montana and maybe Elway above him from the guys I saw play. Maybe Unitas and Graham from what I've heard/seen.

Deal with it. If you want to tell me why you think so low of him please feel free to enlighten me.

[EastCoastNiner]

Modern-Era Hall of Fame QB's:

Troy Aikman 1989-2000
George Blanda (Also PK) 1949-1958, 1960-1975
Terry Bradshaw 1970-1983
Len Dawson 1957-1975
John Elway 1983-1998
Dan Fouts 1973-1987
Otto Graham 1946-1955
Bob Griese 1967-1980
Sonny Jurgensen 1957-1974
Jim Kelly 1986-1996
Bobby Layne 1948-1962
Dan Marino 1983-1999
Joe Montana 1979-1994
Warren Moon 1984-2000
Joe Namath 1965-1977
Bart Starr 1956-1971
Roger Staubach 1969-1979
Fran Tarkenton 1961-1978
Y.A. Tittle 1948-1964
Johnny Unitas 1956-1973
Norm Van Brocklin 1949-1960
Bob Waterfield 1945-1952
Steve Young 1985-1999

If you put him in anything but the lower tier of this list, you should probably disable your account.

Do you even NFL?

The only QB's I would consider putting ahead of him are:

Elway
Fouts
Graham (based on what I've read)
Montana
Bart Starr
Unitas (overrated as fuk)

That's about it.

[EastCoastNiner]

I'm confused on how a two time NFL MVP, four time first-team all-pro QB, and three-time (one where he was starting) Super Bowl champion is at the bottom tier of that list.

Enlighten, oh chosen one.

[iamgenus]

I'm confused on how a two time NFL MVP, four time first-team all-pro QB, and three-time (one where he was starting) Super Bowl champion is at the bottom tier of that list.

Enlighten, oh chosen one.

Probably looking at career numbers not how the guy actually played when he got a chance. Young lost some valuable years first in the USFL, then on a horrendous TB team and then sitting behind Montana.

But when the guy played he could do some amazing things. Highly accurate, very good arm, awesome mobility, poise, intelligence - everything you want in a QB.

[MrRIP]

Do you even NFL?

The only QB's I would consider putting ahead of him are:

Elway
Fouts
Graham (based on what I've read)
Montana
Bart Starr
Unitas (overrated as fuk)

That's about it.

Young over Moon... is you crazy??

[EastCoastNiner]

Young over Moon... is you crazy??

No, Steve Young was certainly better than Moon. Outside of passing yards and pro-bowls, there's not much of anything Moon has on young.


All-Pro Selections:

Young: 6 (Four first team all-pro)

Moon: 3


NFL MVP (AP):

Young: 2

Moon: 0


TD:INT:

Young: 232-107

Moon: 291-233


I could go on and on with other categories that Young smokes him in such as passer rating, the fact that Young led the league in passing for six seasons which is tied for an NFL record, or even mentioning how Moon didn't win a Super Bowl, but I'll spare you.

People tend to forget how great Young really was.

[dadukedau]

Brady is a system QB and it was proven when Cassel came in and put up impressive numbers. I have yet to see Brady make any time of throw a Manning couldn't make. Brady does small dumpoffs that Welker makes 15 yard gains from. Ask yourself could Brady make the throw Eli made to Manninhmam? No, he couldn't.

[DasWunderBrah]

Not even better than the GOAT Peyton Manning.

If he wins another chip + MVP though...

1a.Manning
1b.Montana
3. Brady
4. Marino
5. Unitas/Young/Favre

imo.

inb4 NFL historians

[iamgenus]

Brady is a system QB and it was proven when Cassel came in and put up impressive numbers. I have yet to see Brady make any time of throw a Manning couldn't make. Brady does small dumpoffs that Welker makes 15 yard gains from. Ask yourself could Brady make the throw Eli made to Manninhmam? No, he couldn't.

You must not get to watch many patriot games on that short bus.

[MrRIP]

No, Steve Young was certainly better than Moon. Outside of passing yards and pro-bowls, there's not much of anything Moon has on young.


All-Pro Selections:

Young: 6 (Four first team all-pro)

Moon: 3


NFL MVP (AP):

Young: 2

Moon: 0


TD:INT:

Young: 232-107

Moon: 291-233


I could go on and on with other categories that Young smokes him in such as passer rating, the fact that Young led the league in passing for six seasons which is tied for an NFL record, or even mentioning how Moon didn't win a Super Bowl, but I'll spare you.

People tend to forget how great Young really was.

Warren played on poverty teams. He was picked up by the oilers who didn't have a winning season in almost close to a decade he subsequently turned them into contenders. You bring up All Pro and NFL MVP stats that are subjective to the press. Warren went undrafted not because of talent, but simply because he was black and didn't want to change positions to be in the league. He wasnt going to get those type of accolades over other QBs at the time.

They played basically the same amount of years (Moon 84-00, Young 85-99) in the league although Moon spent his first 5 years in the CFL "proving himself" and young rode the bench in TB and SF for some years. Moon finished his career in the Top 5 in yards and TD and Young barely scratches the top 15. If young was such a prolific passer why is he not in top 10 in passing yards and touchdowns?? He was great but he wasn't an all time great passer by a long shot.

Super Bowls aren't the end all be all in a QB's career, those are team acheivements. Thats why youll rarely hear someone say Steve Young > Marino. In the Era of no salary cap, the 49ers were constantly stacked.

At the end of the day career numbers show the difference. Young currently doesnt sniff the top 20 in Yards and TD's while moon is comfortably in the top 5 in yards and top 8 in TDS

[dadukedau]

You must not get to watch many patriot games on that short bus.

I saw Brady go down and saw Cassel step in and put up good numbers, good enough for other teams to offer him big money to be their starter where he has faiiled.

Anyway, keep thinking that Brady is ELITE QB when he constantly has the best O-line.

Eli has the leagues worst rushing attack and was pressured the most out of any other QB and still did work. Eli makes multiples progression reads while Brady throws small dumpoffs. Fact. Patriots will lose when they are forced to run the ball because they are a system team. FACT.

[iamgenus]

I saw Brady go down and saw Cassel step in and put up good numbers, good enough for other teams to offer him big money to be their starter where he has faiiled.

Anyway, keep thinking that Brady is ELITE QB when he constantly has the best O-line.

Eli has the leagues worst rushing attack and was pressured the most out of any other QB and still did work. Eli makes multiples progression reads while Brady throws small dumpoffs. Fact. Patriots will lose when they are forced to run the ball because they are a system team. FACT.

You're not even worth arguing with considering you have no clue what you're talking about. Guess you stopped watching football in 2003. Brady can and has made every throw in the book.

And Cassel didn't do what Brady did....1000 yards less, 30TDs less and 3 more INT while getting sacked like 25 times more.

Yeah it's all the system...

[dadukedau]

You're not even worth arguing with considering you have no clue what you're talking about. Guess you stopped watching football in 2003. Brady can and has made every throw in the book.

And Cassel didn't do what Brady did....1000 yards less, 30TDs less and 3 more INT while getting sacked like 25 times more.

Yeah it's all the system...

are you comparing Bradys best season to Cassels first year starting.....when he didn't even start in college? I don't even know what numbers you're comparing.

Brady is nothing more than a good qb in a pass happy offensive with a great o line. That's it. Can't hold Peyton or Eli jock.

[CCAurora]

Aikman, Blanda, Elway, Graham, Jurgensen, Layne, Marino, Montana, Moon, Starr, Staubach, Unitas, Van Brocklin

Steve Young had loaded teams his entire career. No QB had teams that stacked from the start of his tenure to the end like Young. Aside from one season, for all the regular season accolades, Young and the 9ers were just a stepping stone for another NFC team... Dallas, Green Bay... Atlanta... everyone on this list either (1) had a loaded team and accomplished more than Young or (2) didn't have a loaded team and made more of their team than Young. In before the tired Aikman vs. Young debate, round 200.

[CCAurora]

I saw Brady go down and saw Cassel step in and put up good numbers, good enough for other teams to offer him big money to be their starter where he has faiiled.

Anyway, keep thinking that Brady is ELITE QB when he constantly has the best O-line.

Eli has the leagues worst rushing attack and was pressured the most out of any other QB and still did work. Eli makes multiples progression reads while Brady throws small dumpoffs. Fact. Patriots will lose when they are forced to run the ball because they are a system team. FACT.

System teams can't run? Mike Shanahan perfected running back by committee...

Knew I shouldn't have repped you in that other thread...

[joedirt87]

Let me know when those other fools get their own video game. Bow down to the king.

[JtotheIzzo]

Does anyone know kethnaab's stance on this issue?

[EastCoastNiner]

Warren played on poverty teams. He was picked up by the oilers who didn't have a winning season in almost close to a decade he subsequently turned them into contenders. You bring up All Pro and NFL MVP stats that are subjective to the press. Warren went undrafted not because of talent, but simply because he was black and didn't want to change positions to be in the league. He wasnt going to get those type of accolades over other QBs at the time.

They played basically the same amount of years (Moon 84-00, Young 85-99) in the league although Moon spent his first 5 years in the CFL "proving himself" and young rode the bench in TB and SF for some years. Moon finished his career in the Top 5 in yards and TD and Young barely scratches the top 15. If young was such a prolific passer why is he not in top 10 in passing yards and touchdowns?? He was great but he wasn't an all time great passer by a long shot.

Super Bowls aren't the end all be all in a QB's career, those are team acheivements. Thats why youll rarely hear someone say Steve Young > Marino. In the Era of no salary cap, the 49ers were constantly stacked.

At the end of the day career numbers show the difference. Young currently doesnt sniff the top 20 in Yards and TD's while moon is comfortably in the top 5 in yards and top 8 in TDS

I'm not even going to address your first point about the MVP and all-pro being subjective awards. Yes, they can be somewhat subjective, but both Young and Moon have made all-pro teams, so it's not like there was a bias against Moon. Maybe Young had more of those awards because he was..............better?

Young was in the NFL from 85-89, being a full-time starter in nine of those seasons. Moon was in the NFL from 84-2000 being a starter for 14/15 seasons (one short season). There's no way Young can be faulted for not being able to start behind the arguable GOAT. So, there goes your entire career numbers argument.

Moon led the NFL in passing yards twice in his nearly twice as long career as Young's, but that's where anything in Moon's favor stops.


Young led the NFL in completion % five times to Moon's none.

Young led the NFL in TD passes four times to Moon's none. Don't worry though, Moon led the NFL in INT's twice to Young's none.

Young led the NFL in passing rating six times, and is the all-time leader in that statistic. Moon NEVER led the NFL in passer rating, and Young absolutely trumps him there.


Do you really want to get into rushing statistics as well?


The only argument you have are longevity arguments and career totals. Moon barely has more TD passes than Young in a much longer career. It truly is obvious who the better QB was, and this one isn't even close.

[Greg1983]

Does anyone know kethnaab's stance on this issue?

He's still writing the thesis. Be prepared for the forum to crash.