Carb question re LOW INTENSITY CARDIO

[Loki197357]

Hi all!!
OK!! Let's see if we can settle this once and for all...

I never used to do much cardio, whether bulking or cutting and had good results.
When I cut, I would consume only 100g quality carbs a day, the exception being from veggies with my meals (but never potato...)

I lift, still heavy, in the MORNING, between 6 to 8 reps when I train, but now I like to do LOW intensity cardio ON THE SAME DAY, in the EVENING, strictly for fat loss.

I consume 50g carbs PRE lifting workout and follow that with 50g carbs POST lifting workout, and the rest of my day would be from fats and the afformentioned vegetables.


NOW, the dilemma: I understand that you can do away with the carbs BEFORE LOW intensity cardio (45-60mins) for fat loss. But what about afterwards? Can you get away with a protein shake or MUST you consume carbs as well?

If the answer is YES, and based on the fact I only consume 100g carbs daily, How many carbs should I consume PRE and POST weightlifting so that I can consume the remainder after LOW intensity cardio in the evening? (Also so my workouts don't suffer and to minimize muscle loss)
Eg: 35g PRE weights, 35g POST weights, then 30g POST CARDIO????

(I don't want to hear about HIIT, that's a different story...
Nor cardio straight after weights)

(Sorry if I come across angry sounding, but everywhere I look people are going on about HIIT or cardio DIRECTLY after training and it's beginning to annoy me, that's all...I just want a simple answer to what I think is a straightforward question)

Thanks in advance, everyone!!

[acrawlingchaos]

Calories in vs calories out is 90% of the battle. Meal timing and frequency should be a matter of PREFERANCE.

Eat your carbs when YOU want to, eat your protein when YOU want to, as long as you stay within your calorie and macro range... the rest is relatively insginficant.

IMO diet should be utilized for fat loss, and cardio should be utilized for cardiac health, and to some extent to aid in creating a deficit (but not specifically for fat loss).

[EjnarKolinkar]

How many carbs should I consume PRE and POST weightlifting so that I can consume the remainder after LOW intensity cardio in the evening? (Also so my workouts don't suffer and to minimize muscle loss) Eg: 35g PRE weights, 35g POST weights, then 30g POST CARDIO????

How many carbs you will have to consume prior and post workout to not have your workouts suffer will largely be a matter of trial and error. I find the duration of the deficit has more impact on my productivity, the longer I go the weaker I get. But I am weak to begin with.

As far as maintaining anabolism during exertion I would given the data of 100g carbohydrate available eat 50g pre-weights, and 50g pre-cardio(all mine would be plus whey protein) because IF I am going to buy into nutrient timing beyond preference; I will buy into the sea of information that states this method is the most anabolic. That may only make a 1%-5% difference. But if I am going to do math and time food I am shooting for max anabolism, not max weight lost on the back of catabolism. If I am in deficit I am losing weight, that is all I really need to know. Magic tricks with nutrient timing to lose more sound like sales pitches most of the time to me, for some supplement or somebodies training camp.

I am no genius though, and always on the prowl for new data, so if anybody has a more anabolic nutrient timing magic theory with a good study to back it up I would love to read it. As instructed I am not suggesting HIIT, important to follow instructions.

[drudixon]

if theres energy in your blood, you won't burn any fat DURING the workout. However, you will contribute to the deficit that burns fat after the workout. Burning fast solely outside of workouts minimizes protein oxidation, which for a lifter is a good thing.

[Tommy W.]

calories in vs calories out is 90% of the battle. Meal timing and frequency should be a matter of preferance.

Eat your carbs when you want to, eat your protein when you want to, as long as you stay within your calorie and macro range... The rest is relatively insginficant.

Imo diet should be utilized for fat loss, and cardio should be utilized for cardiac health, and to some extent to aid in creating a deficit (but not specifically for fat loss).

this^^^

[azstrengthcoach]

Hi all!!
OK!! Let's see if we can settle this once and for all...

I never used to do much cardio, whether bulking or cutting and had good results.
When I cut, I would consume only 100g quality carbs a day, the exception being from veggies with my meals (but never potato...)

I lift, still heavy, in the MORNING, between 6 to 8 reps when I train, but now I like to do LOW intensity cardio ON THE SAME DAY, in the EVENING, strictly for fat loss.

I consume 50g carbs PRE lifting workout and follow that with 50g carbs POST lifting workout, and the rest of my day would be from fats and the afformentioned vegetables.


NOW, the dilemma: I understand that you can do away with the carbs BEFORE LOW intensity cardio (45-60mins) for fat loss. But what about afterwards? Can you get away with a protein shake or MUST you consume carbs as well?

If the answer is YES, and based on the fact I only consume 100g carbs daily, How many carbs should I consume PRE and POST weightlifting so that I can consume the remainder after LOW intensity cardio in the evening? (Also so my workouts don't suffer and to minimize muscle loss)
Eg: 35g PRE weights, 35g POST weights, then 30g POST CARDIO????

(I don't want to hear about HIIT, that's a different story...
Nor cardio straight after weights)

(Sorry if I come across angry sounding, but everywhere I look people are going on about HIIT or cardio DIRECTLY after training and it's beginning to annoy me, that's all...I just want a simple answer to what I think is a straightforward question)

Thanks in advance, everyone!!

It depends on what your main goal is. What is your main goal?

[azstrengthcoach]

Calories in vs calories out is 90% of the battle.

Not true

[ironwill2008]

..... settle this once and for all...

Like that'll happen.

Calories in vs calories out is 90% of the battle. Meal timing and frequency should be a matter of PREFERANCE.

Eat your carbs when YOU want to, eat your protein when YOU want to, as long as you stay within your calorie and macro range... the rest is relatively insginficant.

IMO diet should be utilized for fat loss, and cardio should be utilized for cardiac health, and to some extent to aid in creating a deficit (but not specifically for fat loss).

Go with ^^^^ this, OP.

[azstrengthcoach]

OP,

You want to get really lean forget cardio do sprints

[Tommy W.]

OP,

You want to get really lean forget cardio do sprints

Sprints ARE cardio.

[Tommy W.]

Not true

Oh really?

[azstrengthcoach]

Sprints ARE cardio.

Well it depends on how you define cardio doesn't it

[azstrengthcoach]

Oh really?

If calories versus calories out was all that mattered than isocaloric diets of different macronutrients wouldn't affect metabolism an body comp but they do. If calories were all that mattered than every test subject on a calorie restricted diet would all lose the same amount of weight but they don't. On a 500 calorie deficit, 50 subjects will have vastly different weightloss results. If calories were all that count than why do graveyard shift workers routinely weigh more and are fatter than day shift workers? Surely all nightshirt workers don't eat more. Like any physiological system weight gain/loss is multifactorial. How much you eat is an important role, but it's not as simple as calories in and calories out.

[Tommy W.]

If calories versus calories out was all that mattered than isocaloric diets of different macronutrients wouldn't affect metabolism an body comp but they do. If calories were all that mattered than every test subject on a calorie restricted diet would all lose the same amount of weight but they don't. On a 500 calorie deficit, 50 subjects will have vastly different weightloss results. If calories were all that count than why do graveyard shift workers routinely weigh more and are fatter than day shift workers? Surely all nightshirt workers don't eat more

You make some valid points however I dont think comparing graveyard shift as opposed to day shift workers is a very good comparison model for our purposes. Cals in and out is STILL the number 1 equation for weight loss.

[Loki197357]

Thankyou everyone for all the input. Truly appreciated.
You have all given me valid points and things to ponder, and made me realize that I am over analyzing things - a trait of mine.
Cheers for taking the time to help me out.
Peace, all!!

[acrawlingchaos]

Not true

Again, we will agree to disagree.

If calories versus calories out was all that mattered than isocaloric diets of different macronutrients wouldn't affect metabolism an body comp but they do. If calories were all that mattered than every test subject on a calorie restricted diet would all lose the same amount of weight but they don't. On a 500 calorie deficit, 50 subjects will have vastly different weightloss results. If calories were all that count than why do graveyard shift workers routinely weigh more and are fatter than day shift workers? Surely all nightshirt workers don't eat more. Like any physiological system weight gain/loss is multifactorial. How much you eat is an important role, but it's not as simple as calories in and calories out.

We are not talking about random macro assignments. I am not comparing the difference of someone that eat 2000 calories of protien to someone eating 2000 calories of carbs. Of course there would be a difference then. I suppose I should have been more precise.

Calories in Vs. Calories out while staying within your prescribed macro range is 90% of the battle.

I'd ask for the source of your study, but I'm sure it will cost me $31.98 to view.


FWIW, I have been working the graveyard shift for years. I am hardly fat. Correlation =/= causation. There are several challenges with 3rd shift that could contribute to obesity. After being on 3rd shift for so long, I can honestly tell you, it isn't the carbs at night that make you fat. Though it would be nice to just go to 1st shift and not have to try as hard to be lean because of my carb timing.

[azstrengthcoach]

You make some valid points however I dont think comparing graveyard shift as opposed to day shift workers is a very good comparison model for our purposes. Cals in and out is STILL the number 1 equation for weight loss.

Why isn't a good example? The point is endocrine and hormonal factors have has much of an affect on weight as calories. If calories were all that mattered than a 2500 calorie pure sugar dirt would cause the same weight change as a 2500 calorie all fat diet. But the two diets cause vastly different results. What you eat, how your body functions matter as much as how much

[azstrengthcoach]

Again, we will agree to disagree.

We are not talking about random macro assignments. I am not comparing the difference of someone that eat 2000 calories of protien to someone eating 2000 calories of carbs. Of course there would be a difference then. I suppose I should have been more precise.

Calories in Vs. Calories out while staying within your prescribed macro range is 90% of the battle.

I'd ask for the source of your study, but I'm sure it will cost me $31.98 to view.


FWIW, I have been working the graveyard shift for years. I am hardly fat. Correlation =/= causation. There are several challenges with 3rd shift that could contribute to obesity. After being on 3rd shift for so long, I can honestly tell you, it isn't the carbs at night that make you fat. Though it would be nice to just go to 1st shift and not have to try as hard to be lean because of my carb timing.

I'd ask for anything besides anecdotal evidence from you but you won't provide any. I'm still waiting for ANY evidence to back up any of your claims. Carb timing has nothing to do with this it's about hormonal did regulation of night work. How about this, narcoleptics are significantly fatter than normal sleepers and thus is true across many countries. Are we to believe that narcoleptics eat a ton more than us? I challenge to find a study a decent sample size where people lost the same amount of weight on an identical caloric deficit.

[acrawlingchaos]

Strong understanding of my position.

I CAN NOT PROVIDE EVIDENCE BECAUSE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE. There is no concrete evidence that shows one particular eating pattern or timing method that is superior.

The article below is a summation of my stance.

http://www.leangains.com/2011/04/cri...d-on-meal.html

Are we to believe that narcoleptics eat a ton more than us? I challenge to find a study a decent sample size where people lost the same amount of weight on an identical caloric deficit.

We can assume they sleep more, and most likely more inactive (which will contribute to poor composition). Correlation =/= causation.

I have seen no study with appropriate controls to make a claim for either way.

[EjnarKolinkar]

Why isn't a good example? The point is endocrine and hormonal factors have has much of an affect on weight as calories. If calories were all that mattered than a 2500 calorie pure sugar dirt would cause the same weight change as a 2500 calorie all fat diet. But the two diets cause vastly different results. What you eat, how your body functions matter as much as how much

Wow, this has devolved to "2500 cal sugar dirt". That stuff is worse than crack. Obv the OP has an idea what macros are, and the jump off "90% calories" post has a second line that refers to macros clearly. When your too angry to type diet, instead of dirt its time for a snack. Now that is nutrient timing!

[azstrengthcoach]

Wow, this has devolved to "2500 cal sugar dirt". That stuff is worse than crack. Obv the OP has an idea what macros are, and the jump off "90% calories" post has a second line that refers to macros clearly. When your too angry to type diet, instead of dirt its time for a snack. Now that is nutrient timing!

I'm not angry at all, just making a point

[azstrengthcoach]

Strong understanding of my position.

I CAN NOT PROVIDE EVIDENCE BECAUSE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE. There is no concrete evidence that shows one particular eating pattern or timing method that is superior.

The article below is a summation of my stance.

http://www.leangains.com/2011/04/cri...d-on-meal.html


We can assume they sleep more, and most likely more inactive (which will contribute to poor composition). Correlation =/= causation.

I have seen no study with appropriate controls to make a claim for either way.

Narcoleptics actually have the same hormonal profile as the chronically sleep deprived which btw are also significantly fatter than those that get regular sleep. So you're saying you can't find any proof to support your claim that calorie intake is more important to weight loss than macronutrient intake? That calories in vs out is the biggest determinant? Your response is to post an article refuting meal frequency? A topic totally irrelevant to this discussion and something I've never disputed? So to support your claim that calories in vs calorIes out is the biggest factor in weight you provide a critical review of meal frequency?

[azstrengthcoach]

Calories in vs calories out is 90% of the battle.).

what does this, have to do with meal frequency?

[azstrengthcoach]

OP, you never stated is your main goal performance, or physique based?

[acrawlingchaos]

what does this, have to do with meal frequency?

If calories were all that count than why do graveyard shift workers routinely weigh more and are fatter than day shift workers? Surely all nightshirt workers don't eat more. Like any physiological system weight gain/loss is multifactorial.

Let's pretend you didn't bring up meal timing first, or that the OP didn't refer to timing in his original post.

Wow, this has devolved to "2500 cal sugar dirt". That stuff is worse than crack. Obv the OP has an idea what macros are, and the jump off "90% calories" post has a second line that refers to macros clearly. When your too angry to type diet, instead of dirt its time for a snack. Now that is nutrient timing!

I believe I actually said it twice.

We are not talking about random macro assignments. I am not comparing the difference of someone that eat 2000 calories of protien to someone eating 2000 calories of carbs. Of course there would be a difference then.

Calories in Vs. Calories out while staying within your prescribed macro range is 90% of the battle.

Eat your carbs when YOU want to, eat your protein when YOU want to, as long as you stay within your calorie and macro range... the rest is relatively insginficant.

[JRT6]

Hard sprints on lower carb and calorie debt are a good way to tear a leg muscle. Not causal but definitely an increased risk. Saying that sprints are better than LSD is 2005 rationale.

Carbs are muscle sparring not protein so unless you'er on a hard cut diet then carbs with your cardio, of any kind, would be wise.

[Tommy W.]

Why isn't a good example? The point is endocrine and hormonal factors have has much of an affect on weight as calories. If calories were all that mattered than a 2500 calorie pure sugar dirt would cause the same weight change as a 2500 calorie all fat diet. But the two diets cause vastly different results. What you eat, how your body functions matter as much as how much

the sugar and fat comparison is fuc^in stupid for this comparison as it normally is. This is the boilerplate answer as a last resort to try to prove an invalid point

[x-trainer ben]

Hi all!!
OK!! Let's see if we can settle this once and for all...

I never used to do much cardio, whether bulking or cutting and had good results.
When I cut, I would consume only 100g quality carbs a day, the exception being from veggies with my meals (but never potato...)

I lift, still heavy, in the MORNING, between 6 to 8 reps when I train, but now I like to do LOW intensity cardio ON THE SAME DAY, in the EVENING, strictly for fat loss.

I consume 50g carbs PRE lifting workout and follow that with 50g carbs POST lifting workout, and the rest of my day would be from fats and the afformentioned vegetables.


NOW, the dilemma: I understand that you can do away with the carbs BEFORE LOW intensity cardio (45-60mins) for fat loss. But what about afterwards? Can you get away with a protein shake or MUST you consume carbs as well?

If the answer is YES, and based on the fact I only consume 100g carbs daily, How many carbs should I consume PRE and POST weightlifting so that I can consume the remainder after LOW intensity cardio in the evening? (Also so my workouts don't suffer and to minimize muscle loss)
Eg: 35g PRE weights, 35g POST weights, then 30g POST CARDIO????

(I don't want to hear about HIIT, that's a different story...
Nor cardio straight after weights)

(Sorry if I come across angry sounding, but everywhere I look people are going on about HIIT or cardio DIRECTLY after training and it's beginning to annoy me, that's all...I just want a simple answer to what I think is a straightforward question)

Thanks in advance, everyone!!

There is no rule that you must consume carbs after a workout, this originated with endurance training athletes to "refuel" for the following days grind. Think Tour de France. You... will need to come up with the magic number(carbs) yourself, in order to see what gives you energy to work out hard in the AM and endure 45 min in the PM.

[azstrengthcoach]

Let's pretend you didn't bring up meal timing first, or that the OP didn't refer to timing in his original post.



I believe I actually said it twice.

I didn't bring up meal frequency, not once. I disputed that calories vs calories out is as simple as you claim, which its not and you can't prove it

[azstrengthcoach]

the sugar and fat comparison is fuc^in stupid for this comparison as it normally is. This is the boilerplate answer as a last resort to try to prove an invalid point

It's not stupid if your claim is that calories in vs calories out is all that matters. The point is what you eat, how often you eat it, and to some extent when matters as much as how much. The fact that on an identical isocaloric decrease of 500 calories some will lose no weight and some will lose a lot of weight shows that it's not as simple as calories in vs calories out. Studies have shown that people on a low fat high carb diet lose less weight than people on a higher calorie ketogenic diet. Chaos is trying to claim that calories is all that matters when is just not true