So why are you voting for Obama?

[InsideMan]

Second one: LOL. WTF is this ****? I have never seen such bull**** economics in my entire life. Inflation? Economic cycles? CPI? Where is it all? This doesn't account AT ALL for stratified welfare or that the marginal value of money is staggered by income level. Holy **** my mind exploded. Agreed with last one though.

[nutsy54]

When I'm paying 30% as an engineering intern on the second lowest tax bracket in this country? Bro it makes my blood ****ING BOIL.

You're comparing apples & oranges - Tax rate vs. Effective rate paid. Not to mention tax rates on different types of income. Romney paid the full (and far higher) rate when he first earned that income, and now pays a smaller rate on the returns after investing that income.

[NF0913]

lol @ anyone who votes for brobama

[egalitarian69]

You didn't say TARP, you said the Stimulus, which was purely an Obama policy. Bush failed with TARP, Obama failed when he continued it, then failed more when he pushed the $800 Billion spending spree that failed to meet its claimed results.


Stop listening to the apologists, and look at the actual numbers: the spending bills signed into law by Obama, and the subsequent spending he continued and created. Oh... and how many of those 2009 spending bills did he vote against as a Senator?

dont forget obama has also lowerd the value of the $ with his quantative easing polices. why would anyone vote this clown back in for another term..

[InsideMan]

Um... How would 4% "bankrupt the majority of other programs", when Defense has averaged 4.9% GDP throughout the Obama administration?

We're in two "wars"...u can't be serious.

[InsideMan]

You're comparing apples & oranges - Tax rate vs. Effective rate paid. Not to mention tax rates on different types of income. Romney paid the full (and far higher) rate when he first earned that income, and now pays a smaller rate on the returns after investing that income.

So you must have actually seen his returns and the numbers he uses don't matter?

[nutsy54]

We're in two "wars"...u can't be serious.

What does that have to do with my statement, or the post I responded to?

PS: We're in one war... Afghanistan.

[InsideMan]

What does that have to do with my statement, or the post I responded to?

PS: We're in one war... Afghanistan.

We're still paying for Iraq (debt) and my point is that military spending balloons during wartime so if it doesn't sink to ~2.5% or lower in the next 5 years we're going to have problems.

EDIT: 2.5% is a guesstimate - there is an optimal point where the downward pressure on the value of USD is balanced out by the direct savings from cutting spending but ask a professional economist what it is.

[HeliBrah]

How does spending a ridiculous amount of money on healthcare when we can't even afford what we have now seem like a "good" idea?

Because a healthy population is a better off population?

If people don't have to worry that a health issue will ruin their savings, then they will spend money and keep the economy afloat even during times of economic crisis. Also a healthy population is a strong workforce. Universal healthcare is one of the biggest achievements of modern societies and even without its economic benefits I feel I am obliged to work towards something that'd better the life of my peers.

No idea why people come up with that argument all the time. Just look at how it works in other countries.

[BaronOBeefDerp]

I'm not voting for Obama OP, I'm voting for Gary Johnson

[DominationStation]

Because a healthy population is a better off population?

If people don't have to worry that a health issue will ruin their savings, then they will spend money and keep the economy afloat even during times of economic crisis. Also a healthy population is a strong workforce. Universal healthcare is one of the biggest achievements of modern societies and even without its economic benefits I feel I am obliged to work towards something that'd better the life of my peers.

No idea why people come up with that argument all the time. Just look at how it works in other countries.

You really live in a dream world bro.

[SoSick]

No, I'm really not. I'm not saying that at all.

You are essentially saying that anyone with a religious creed is apparently brainwashed if they are influenced by any form of religion, since religion is based on irrationality. Is that correct?

I made a specific point that brainwashed is not the term to be used here. In fact, that was the focus of my prior post. I'm saying they are basing their beliefs off blind faith which is irrational, and illogical. Irrationality and illogical thought have no place in politics which is why I wont be voting for romney

[TypeZero]

The same reason everyone else is...because he's black.





































JK, not even American.

[InsideMan]

Because a healthy population is a better off population?

If people don't have to worry that a health issue will ruin their savings, then they will spend money and keep the economy afloat even during times of economic crisis. Also a healthy population is a strong workforce. Universal healthcare is one of the biggest achievements of modern societies and even without its economic benefits I feel I am obliged to work towards something that'd better the life of my peers.

No idea why people come up with that argument all the time. Just look at how it works in other countries.

In other countries, people are taxed higher which cripples their ability to participate economically and encourage a competitive, capitalist system thereby lowering their own standard of living.

[HeliBrah]

You really live in a dream world bro.

BRB - got taught dreams in my econ major
BRB - do NOT experience the benefits of universal healthcare first hand in Germany right now
BRB - Germany does not have the most stable economy in the last 2 years because the citizens never once slowed down spending since they are taken care of by social security nets and health care if they'd need it

But your strong argument totally made me reflect on my point of view brah.

In other countries, people are taxed higher which cripples their ability to foster a competitive, capitalist system and lowers their own standard of living. Gtfo you ignorant troll.

Yes, Germany is well known for being super poor. I paid here almost 45% tax on my sallary, have universal healthcare with zero caveats, if you lose your job you get like 70% of your sallary paid by social security each month, public infrastructure is only matched by a few Asian countries (South Korea, Japan, Singapor). Free public education, incl. Grad school., etc.

[DominationStation]

I made a specific point that brainwashed is not the term to be used here. In fact, that was the focus of my prior post. I'm saying they are basing their beliefs off blind faith which is irrational, and illogical. Irrationality and illogical thought have no place in politics which is why I wont be voting for romney

Ok, I'll back off from the term brainwash then. So my prior statement is revised to this:

You are essentially saying that anyone with a religious creed is apparently irrational/illogical if they are influenced by any form of religion, since religion is based on irrationality. Is that correct?

The reason I am bringing this up, which is probably pretty obvious, is because in addition to Romney, Obama and every other president we've ever had (and probably every, or almost every, political figure period) has subscribed to some sort of religious creed. Romney is probably MORE religious than the others, or at least more up front about it, but I feel like your argument could easily be turned into saying that anyone with a religious belief or any belief based on blind faith should not be in political office.

[InsideMan]

BRB - got taught dreams in my econ major
BRB - do NOT experience the benefits of universal healthcare first hand in Germany right now
BRB - Germany does not have the most stable economy in the last 2 years because the citizens never once slowed down spending since they are taken care of by social security nets and health care if they'd need it

But your strong argument totally made me reflect on my point of view brah.



Yes, Germany is well known for being super poor.

Causation? Are you trying to say : "they are wealthy because they have universal healthcare"? I think even the Germans might get angry at you.

[DominationStation]

BRB - got taught dreams in my econ major
BRB - do NOT experience the benefits of universal healthcare first hand in Germany right now
BRB - Germany does not have the most stable economy in the last 2 years because the citizens never once slowed down spending since they are taken care of by social security nets and health care if they'd need it

But your strong argument totally made me reflect on my point of view brah.



Yes, Germany is well known for being super poor.

Your basing virtually all of your "logic" on positive faith in humanity, which in reality is probably very misguided. Sorry, but there are a whole lot of people in our society who are going to spend every dollar they have, whether it's on health care, drugs, or rent. In the same way, there are people who are simply never going to work hard. And for those people, universal healthcare isn't going to change that--and realizing that isn't something I need an econ degree to acknowledge.

[Yharbo]

all politics aside, Romney has no soul

[InsideMan]

BRB - got taught dreams in my econ major
BRB - do NOT experience the benefits of universal healthcare first hand in Germany right now
BRB - Germany does not have the most stable economy in the last 2 years because the citizens never once slowed down spending since they are taken care of by social security nets and health care if they'd need it

But your strong argument totally made me reflect on my point of view brah.



Yes, Germany is well known for being super poor. I paid here almost 45% tax on my sallary, have universal healthcare with zero caveats, if you lose your job you get like 70% of your sallary paid by social security each month, public infrastructure is only matched by a few Asian countries (South Korea, Japan, Singapor). Free public education, incl. Grad school., etc.

Also, Germany and the US are completely different countries. It's not a simple matter of saying "oh it worked like this here so let's do it here". Plus we've got massive health problems. There's no way in **** I'm paying for some fatass in MIssouri to live another few useless years.

[HeliBrah]

Causation? Are you trying to say : "they are wealthy because they have universal healthcare"? I think even the Germans might get angry at you.

No, thats not what I am trying to say, but nice try putting words in my mouth. I said that Germans have no worries (relatively speaking) and having universal healthcare is one reason for this. Because they have no worries, they are less affected by crisis and market fears. Their stock market can fly loops, neighboring countries be on the brink of economic extinction and they will still keep spending and thus keep the economy going instead of doing a run on the banks.

Germany is basically financially supporting 3 countries right now and the population is still churning out a consecutive GDP growth. THATS their strength, thats why universal healthcare - as ONE of the many social constructs they have built and use - is a good idea also in the economic sense. Even with all the sentimental ideas and ethics aside.

Your basing virtually all of your "logic" on positive faith in humanity, which in reality is probably very misguided. Sorry, but there are a whole lot of people in our society who are going to spend every dollar they have, whether it's on health care, drugs, or rent. In the same way, there are people who are simply never going to work hard. And for those people, universal healthcare isn't going to change that--and realizing that isn't something I need an econ degree to acknowledge.

Thats a weird mindset for me, but common here on the MISC. You seem to focus on the "economic boogieman", the people who will game the system, and thus prevent something which would benefit the rest!? It must be due to the scare tactics used in US media with all those red banners scrolling on thebottom of the screen, putting outrageously misquoted things on display to put the fear of god into the population.

You cannot base your politics or policies on your fears of people gaming it. You implement the policy which benefits the majority and then figure out control systems to cope with those boogiemen who will drain the US budget in your eyes. And no, I won't quote Jefferson, even though it was on the tip of my tongue.

[QuickNutkus]

They both suck major *******. I'm not voting. Ron paul seemed like the only canidate who wanted to do something but we were to fuking retarded to vote him in. Why? Because people thought he had the wrong ideas and would ruin the country.

So what exactly has Obama been doing... Oh, wait, it's not his fault. It's bushes fault still. Well that and congress makes all the important decisions so it's not even on him. Right?.....

I hope this country does go under. That's the fairest thing that could happen now.

[InsanePain11]

Definitely not voting for him.

[210G]

Because a healthy population is a better off population?

If people don't have to worry that a health issue will ruin their savings, then they will spend money and keep the economy afloat even during times of economic crisis. Also a healthy population is a strong workforce. Universal healthcare is one of the biggest achievements of modern societies and even without its economic benefits I feel I am obliged to work towards something that'd better the life of my peers.

No idea why people come up with that argument all the time. Just look at how it works in other countries.

Countries like Greece?

[DominationStation]

No, thats not what I am trying to say, but nice try putting words in my mouth. I said that Germans have no worries (relatively speaking) and having universal healthcare is one reason for this. Because they have no worries, they are less affected by crisis and market fears. Their stock market can fly loops, neighboring countries be on the brink of economic extinction and they will still keep spending and thus keep the economy going instead of doing a run on the banks.

Germany is basically financially supporting 3 countries right now and the population is still churning out a consecutive GDP growth. THATS their strength, thats why universal healthcare - as ONE of the many social constructs they have built and use - is a good idea also in the economic sense. Even with all the sentimental ideas and ethics aside.



Thats a weird mindset for me, but common here on the MISC. You seem to focus on the "economic boogieman", the people who will game the system, and thus prevent something which would benefit the rest!? It must be due to the scare tactics used in US media with all those red banners scrolling on thebottom of the screen, putting outrageously misquoted things on display to put the fear of god into the population.

You cannot base your politics or policies on your fears of people gaming it. You implement the policy which benefits the majority and then figure out control systems to cope with those boogiemen who will drain the US budget in your eyes. And no, I won't quote Jefferson, even though it was on the tip of my tongue.

Subconsciously, sure, I'm sure media influence factors in...but what I'm really basing my opinions on (or trying to) is what I see first hand, and that is that people inherently don't want to work hard. I live in a nice suburb, but even here, people (without coming off as "class-ist", but particularly in the lower classes) look for excuses not to work, rather than utilize advantages as a means to work. Maybe I'm wrong, but either way, your reasoning seemed far more based off of a faith in humanity / gamble than any actual economics.

[Thetal0n]

lol either way in 4 years the president will be hated no matter what

[210G]

No, thats not what I am trying to say, but nice try putting words in my mouth. I said that Germans have no worries (relatively speaking) and having universal healthcare is one reason for this. Because they have no worries, they are less affected by crisis and market fears. Their stock market can fly loops, neighboring countries be on the brink of economic extinction and they will still keep spending and thus keep the economy going instead of doing a run on the banks.

Germany is basically financially supporting 3 countries right now and the population is still churning out a consecutive GDP growth. THATS their strength, thats why universal healthcare - as ONE of the many social constructs they have built and use - is a good idea also in the economic sense. Even with all the sentimental ideas and ethics aside.



Thats a weird mindset for me, but common here on the MISC. You seem to focus on the "economic boogieman", the people who will game the system, and thus prevent something which would benefit the rest!? It must be due to the scare tactics used in US media with all those red banners scrolling on thebottom of the screen, putting outrageously misquoted things on display to put the fear of god into the population.

You cannot base your politics or policies on your fears of people gaming it. You implement the policy which benefits the majority and then figure out control systems to cope with those boogiemen who will drain the US budget in your eyes. And no, I won't quote Jefferson, even though it was on the tip of my tongue.

We have more than 3 times the population of Germany. All of you pro universal healthcare people don't seem to realize that the United States has a lot bigger population than the rest of these countries. You can't implement the same system.

[InsideMan]

No, thats not what I am trying to say, but nice try putting words in my mouth. I said that Germans have no worries (relatively speaking) and having universal healthcare is one reason for this. Because they have no worries, they are less affected by crisis and market fears. Their stock market can fly loops, neighboring countries be on the brink of economic extinction and they will still keep spending and thus keep the economy going instead of doing a run on the banks.

Germany is basically financially supporting 3 countries right now and the population is still churning out a consecutive GDP growth. THATS their strength, thats why universal healthcare - as ONE of the many social constructs they have built and use - is a good idea also in the economic sense. Even with all the sentimental ideas and ethics aside.



Thats a weird mindset for me, but common here on the MISC. You seem to focus on the "economic boogieman", the people who will game the system, and thus prevent something which would benefit the rest!? It must be due to the scare tactics used in US media with all those red banners scrolling on thebottom of the screen, putting outrageously misquoted things on display to put the fear of god into the population.

You cannot base your politics or policies on your fears of people gaming it. You implement the policy which benefits the majority and then figure out control systems to cope with those boogiemen who will drain the US budget in your eyes. And no, I won't quote Jefferson, even though it was on the tip of my tongue.

You make it sound like we're denying our people healthcare altogether when in fact we provide medicare for those who can't afford it and for the old (it's the largest component of the federal spending budget). It doesn't matter what universal healthcare looks like in other countries because it's completely unnecessary here. In fact, it's unethical for the ~40 million holdouts who can afford it but don't want it to sink the entire industry and drive up costs of better, private coverage for the rest of us.

[HockeyJon]

Yes, that's why people with money in other countries come to America to have the important procedures done.

America does have some of the premier elite healthcare institutions in the world. It's also ranked 37th by the WHO. It also pays the most per capita in the world, which for a country that's supposed to be completely privatized is absolutely mindblowing. Maybe suggestions that the American healthcare system requires reform are not so far off. I've lived in both Canada and the United States. Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages, but overall I'd take the Canadian system over the American system every time. Additionally, you said yourself, "people with money". I presume you can't afford routine treatment at the Mayo Clinic yourself, so how is this a good thing for you as an individual? Are you loaded?

[SCW]

tribe leader click click obongo