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  1. #4711
    Registered User ngtvenfnty's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SkinnyAsRake View Post
    friend of mine started this program at 22% body fat and now is 18% and is the same weight , he using a low carb / high protien with 2 high carb days every 4th low carb .

    goes to show you can lose weight and gain muscle .
    Same here. In the last 3 months working out I have not lost more that 5-10 lbs, but I have lost whole pant sizes. It is obvious that I have lost allot of fat and am more muscular, and the only way that I could be maintaining weight is by muscle gain. It is very possible, even ridiculously obvious why, but so many are sold on the cut/bulk yo-yo cycle. Seems crazy to me.

  2. #4712
    Registered User DeltaCharlie75's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SkinnyAsRake View Post
    1 more rep gives more endurance but the weight remains the same thus you should get weaker .

    Oh wait thats why he has deloads during week so that you are consistantly adding weight to bar each week to keep the system adapting .

    something like this I guess ?

    Workout 1 Workout 2 workout 3 workout 4
    100 pounds -10 = 90 pounds -20 = 80 pounds +20 pounds ( weight has been added to the bar ) + 1 rep for endurance .

    Quite a cleaver way to keep the system continously having to adapt .




    I lift 20kg cartons at work . Why do I not continuously get stronger to the point where the cartons feel like paper weights ? If I lift the carton 5 times or 10 times it still feels the same weight .

    So my muscles must be getting stronger then weaker then stronger then weaker in a vicious cycle . One day the cartons will feel slightly heavier in and the next slightly lighter .
    Are you our new resident troll or are you Grailler in disguise, or do you genuinely believe what you just wrote ?

  3. #4713
    Banned SkinnyAsRake's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DeltaCharlie75 View Post
    Are you our new resident troll or are you Grailler in disguise, or do you genuinely believe what you just wrote ?
    Sad that you would think Im a troll , you obviously dont know much about strength training.

    Are you trying to say you know more than the guy who wrote this

    "You do not lift the same weight workout after workout, week after week, month after month. Guess what:
    this would actually make your body WEAKER. Maybe you've been in a situation where you
    suddenly can't bench the weight that you can normally bench easily. Well now you know
    why: if you always lift the same weight, your body becomes lazy and you lose strength."


    or this ? I guess this person knows nothing .

    "The best way to stall and limit your strength and muscle gains is by using the same weight week in and week out.

    But wait, I know what you're going to say. Somewhere along the line you've heard the following from a big, beefy bodybuilder: "I don't train heavy.
    "Guess what...heavy is a relative term. When a mass monster states they aren't lifting "heavy",
    it means that instead of squatting 450 for 5 reps, they are squatting 375 for 12 reps.

    No matter how you slice and dice it, you must get stronger to get bigger."
    Last edited by SkinnyAsRake; 12-30-2012 at 10:23 PM.

  4. #4714
    Registered User nevergain's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SkinnyAsRake View Post
    I lift 20kg cartons at work . Why do I not continuously get stronger to the point where the cartons feel like paper weights ? If I lift the carton 5 times or 10 times it still feels the same weight .

    So my muscles must be getting stronger then weaker then stronger then weaker in a vicious cycle . One day the cartons will feel slightly heavier in and the next slightly lighter .
    Either you're trolling or not comprehending what I said. If you lift one more carton everyday at work, you will get stronger. Then after a month of lifting one more carton, you lift 25kg cartons, but 4 less. Do this cycle for a few months and when you lift the 20kg it will feel like a paper weight. If you lift the same number of cartons everyday, nothing will change.

  5. #4715
    Registered User DeltaCharlie75's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SkinnyAsRake View Post
    Sad that you would think Im a troll , you obviously dont know much about strength training.

    Are you trying to say you know more than the guy who wrote this

    "You do not lift the same weight workout after workout, week after week, month after month. Guess what:
    this would actually make your body WEAKER. Maybe you've been in a situation where you
    suddenly can't bench the weight that you can normally bench easily. Well now you know
    why: if you always lift the same weight, your body becomes lazy and you lose strength."


    or this ? I guess this person knows nothing .

    "The best way to stall and limit your strength and muscle gains is by using the same weight week in and week out.

    But wait, I know what you're going to say. Somewhere along the line you've heard the following from a big, beefy bodybuilder: "I don't train heavy.
    "Guess what...heavy is a relative term. When a mass monster states they aren't lifting "heavy",
    it means that instead of squatting 450 for 5 reps, they are squatting 375 for 12 reps.

    No matter how you slice and dice it, you must get stronger to get bigger."
    Congratulations, you found some quotes on the Internet. For someone who has only been lifting a few days, your knowledge has surely surpassed your intellect. Welcome back Grailer.
    Last edited by DeltaCharlie75; 12-30-2012 at 11:43 PM.

  6. #4716
    Registered User Jimmer74's Avatar
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    Hi guys, just wanted to poke my head in and say I'll be starting the programme in a couple of weeks. Yes, I've read all three threads (took a while I can tell you!) and can't wait to get her started!

    I spent most of this year re-habbing a shoulder injury using dumbbells and have finally got it to the stage where I can take on something bar-based. I like the look of this programme because the 10-rep max thing allows me to get my form perfect again with some lighter weights before things start heating up too much! Last thing I want to do is start out too full-on and end up re-habbing something for a whole year again!

    Looking to test all my maxes early Jan with a mid-jan start date..... looks like a good bunch of guys in here and I can't wait to move some iron!

    PS to the guy worried that increasing reps won't make you stronger, no lesser thinker than Jim Wendler himself says:

    "Most people live and die by their 1-rep max. To me, this is foolish and shortsighted. If your squat goes from 225x6 to 225x9, you’ve gotten stronger."

    just hope his lawyers won't take me out the back and shoot me for quoting from 5/3/1 without authorisation!

  7. #4717
    Banned SkinnyAsRake's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nevergain View Post
    Either you're trolling or not comprehending what I said. If you lift one more carton everyday at work, you will get stronger. Then after a month of lifting one more carton, you lift 25kg cartons, but 4 less. Do this cycle for a few months and when you lift the 20kg it will feel like a paper weight. If you lift the same number of cartons everyday, nothing will change.
    I dont think you get it and I think you think Im trolling because you just dont understand how you gained strength ( its not from doing the 12 reps you gained str when you did the 8 reps )

    As soon as you lift the 20kg carton once ( assuming it was difficult ) you have already become stronger ( after you rest of course ) next time you try to lift say 22.5kg you probably will succeed .
    and so on until the weight becomes so much that you cant repair fast enough .


    If you add more reps you need more endurance not strength . the whole point of this program is to gain endurance and strength at the same time .


    the reason you fail 12 reps would not be because of lack of strength but due to lack of endurance .

    suffice to say this is a really bad program for beginners and im going to say why .

    1. You start at 10rm most beginners don't know how to squat safely even so you risk them hurting themselves before first day of program .
    2. Adding volume or reps with weight that doesnt matter is a waste of time , adding weight to the bar is more important that wasting time deloading more than half the time.

    How I wouldve done better .

    1. Started with just the bar
    2. Added weight to the bar every training session
    3. split some exercises up to rest bodyparts instead of deloading 60% of the time.
    4. add more sets , and keep reps at 5-8 range

  8. #4718
    Registered User nevergain's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jimmer74 View Post
    Hi guys, just wanted to poke my head in and say I'll be starting the programme in a couple of weeks. Yes, I've read all three threads (took a while I can tell you!) and can't wait to get her started!

    I spent most of this year re-habbing a shoulder injury using dumbbells and have finally got it to the stage where I can take on something bar-based. I like the look of this programme because the 10-rep max thing allows me to get my form perfect again with some lighter weights before things start heating up too much! Last thing I want to do is start out too full-on and end up re-habbing something for a whole year again!

    Looking to test all my maxes early Jan with a mid-jan start date..... looks like a good bunch of guys in here and I can't wait to move some iron!

    PS to the guy worried that increasing reps won't make you stronger, no lesser thinker than Jim Wendler himself says:

    "Most people live and die by their 1-rep max. To me, this is foolish and shortsighted. If your squat goes from 225x6 to 225x9, you’ve gotten stronger."

    just hope his lawyers won't take me out the back and shoot me for quoting from 5/3/1 without authorisation!
    Welcome. I started this program for the same reason.I had been out of the gym for a couple of years. I stopped going at the time to rest a shoulder injury and never really got back in. I wanted to build my way up slowly to get my form good on everything again and it seems to be working. Only on cycle 3 but it seems to be working very well so far (of course the holidays haven't helped).

  9. #4719
    Registered User DeltaCharlie75's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SkinnyAsRake View Post
    I dont think you get it and I think you think Im trolling because you just dont understand how you gained strength ( its not from doing the 12 reps you gained str when you did the 8 reps )

    As soon as you lift the 20kg carton once ( assuming it was difficult ) you have already become stronger ( after you rest of course ) next time you try to lift say 22.5kg you probably will succeed .
    and so on until the weight becomes so much that you cant repair fast enough .


    If you add more reps you need more endurance not strength . the whole point of this program is to gain endurance and strength at the same time .


    the reason you fail 12 reps would not be because of lack of strength but due to lack of endurance .

    suffice to say this is a really bad program for beginners and im going to say why .

    1. You start at 10rm most beginners don't know how to squat safely even so you risk them hurting themselves before first day of program .
    2. Adding volume or reps with weight that doesnt matter is a waste of time , adding weight to the bar is more important that wasting time deloading more than half the time.

    How I wouldve done better .

    1. Started with just the bar
    2. Added weight to the bar every training session
    3. split some exercises up to rest bodyparts instead of deloading 60% of the time.
    4. add more sets , and keep reps at 5-8 range
    Your allegedly 6 ft, 140lbs, 5% bf, only started lifting a few days ago and your now telling us how the program is wrong.

    Yeah your not a troll.

  10. #4720
    Registered User JMS72's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DeltaCharlie75 View Post
    Your allegedly 6 ft, 140lbs, 5% bf, only started lifting a few days ago and your now telling us how the program is wrong.

    Yeah your not a troll.
    I caught on to this a few pages back and decided it's not worth responding to his posts

  11. #4721
    Registered User Jimmer74's Avatar
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    I've gotta say - as someone who has recently read all three threads - it's a shame that this has become such a troll-fest in recent pages. The overriding tone of most of it has been one of good information and good support. If someone thinks it's no good, then why continue to waste their time (and everybody else's) by continuing to rubbish the routine over and over. Just admit it's not for you and move on!

  12. #4722
    Registered User frenchy72's Avatar
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    C4W1 Heavy in ten.

    Break's over.

    Happy New Year everybody.

  13. #4723
    A work in progress makeitright's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by zerkai View Post
    I've done this program for at least 8 cycles now (I lost track) and I actually began hating doing more than 10 reps, let alone 8 lol. Anyways, despite my lack of activity in this thread I just wanted to stop by and wish everyone the best in this program. This will provide you with slow and steady progression, just be patient. I took the program and milked it, I'm just a little over 2x my body weight in squats and 1.5x in bench (for my max). I've gone through a lot of trouble with the program during my earlier cycles, even blaming it for 'not working' -- clearly I was wrong.

    The program works! After the 3rd cycle, I knew **** was getting real and that's when I began counting calories and hitting macros. It's pretty much the end of the year and I'll be starting up 5-3-1; loving the progression and versatility in that one!
    Nice! Thanks for sharing man. 8 cycles is a lot of dedication. It's encouraging to see the progress that this program allows if followed diligently like that. Good luck with your next program too.

  14. #4724
    Body by Danzig whiskeysticks's Avatar
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    While I didn't make it to the gym last week, I did move two couches and two bed sets along with other misc furniture. Just me, a dolly and a U-Haul...haven't been that sore since the week 1 of the 1st cycle!

    Yesterday morning, back at it. C5W3 underway...

  15. #4725
    Registered User FitBeyondForty's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JMS72 View Post
    I caught on to this a few pages back and decided it's not worth responding to his posts
    Same. I just negged him instead.


    Heavy day today....then off to a friends for New Years.
    **MFC**

    There is no expiration date on being healthy.

    Ten Rep Max Calculator.
    http://www.naturalphysiques.com/18/o...max-calculator

  16. #4726
    Registered User alacriTEA's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SkinnyAsRake View Post
    I dont think you get it and I think you think Im trolling because you just dont understand how you gained strength....
    .
    .
    .
    .
    ....more sets , and keep reps at 5-8 range
    Negs on recharge...
    Trample the weak...Conquer the strong...Hurdle the dead

    Former 400+ Guy

    Current Program: Cycle 4 of AllPro's beginner routine

    Dec 1st - Mar 1st Transformation Participant

    Starting Weight - 393.2 lbs (Dec 1st)
    Current Weight - 351.6 lbs (Feb 24th)
    ----------------------------------
    Total Weight Loss - 41.6 lbs

    Ending Goal Weight: 340.0 lbs
    Ending Weight: ???

  17. #4727
    Registered User ngtvenfnty's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nevergain View Post
    Either you're trolling or not comprehending what I said. If you lift one more carton everyday at work, you will get stronger. Then after a month of lifting one more carton, you lift 25kg cartons, but 4 less. Do this cycle for a few months and when you lift the 20kg it will feel like a paper weight. If you lift the same number of cartons everyday, nothing will change.
    If I am not understanding correct me, but I think you are both wrong.

    If you lift 20kg cartons 10 times every day, then over time your body will become exceeding efficient at lifting 20kg cartons ten times. Eventually it will feel very easy to lift this weight. Going beyond could be an issue, but not necessarily. There are many factors that go into expressed physical strength. Number and size and tensile strength of muscle fibers, neuro-muscular coordination, your mental ability to endure beyond your current adaptations, and your current energy level and efficiency of metabolic processes, just to name a few.

  18. #4728
    A work in progress makeitright's Avatar
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    Just finished heavy day of week 3. I was a bit nervous for bench press since I had failed the second set the first week and the first set today got a bit difficult towards the end. Kind of surprised myself on that one. I find it really cool that three weeks ago, the 10 rep max was for ONE set, now two and so on. It's definitely a confidence boost seeing that weekly progression.

    Two quick questions:

    1) after I did bent over rows, a personal trainer came over to me to give me some tips on my bench press and rows and we ended up talking for a good 10 minutes or so. So I had an unusually long break between rows and OHP. I know the rest periods are 90 seconds between sets, but what happens when you take 10-15 minutes between exercises? I'd imagine it have a slight effect on endurance, but what about muscle gains/strength? I didn't want to be rude and just walk away, as I really appreciated the advice.

    2) Does rep speed have an effect on muscle size and strength (say for bench press)? Because I noticed that the slower I lower/raise the bar on bench press, the more tired I get. So I've sped up my bar speed a bit on my heavy days in order to get the weight up without tiring out. Is that counter productive at all, or should we really be taking our time?

    Hope everyone enjoys themselves and has a safe New Year tonight!

  19. #4729
    Registered User wannagoheavy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by makeitright View Post
    Just finished heavy day of week 3. I was a bit nervous for bench press since I had failed the second set the first week and the first set today got a bit difficult towards the end. Kind of surprised myself on that one. I find it really cool that three weeks ago, the 10 rep max was for ONE set, now two and so on. It's definitely a confidence boost seeing that weekly progression.

    Two quick questions:

    1) after I did bent over rows, a personal trainer came over to me to give me some tips on my bench press and rows and we ended up talking for a good 10 minutes or so. So I had an unusually long break between rows and OHP. I know the rest periods are 90 seconds between sets, but what happens when you take 10-15 minutes between exercises? I'd imagine it have a slight effect on endurance, but what about muscle gains/strength? I didn't want to be rude and just walk away, as I really appreciated the advice.

    2) Does rep speed have an effect on muscle size and strength (say for bench press)? Because I noticed that the slower I lower/raise the bar on bench press, the more tired I get. So I've sped up my bar speed a bit on my heavy days in order to get the weight up without tiring out. Is that counter productive at all, or should we really be taking our time?

    Hope everyone enjoys themselves and has a safe New Year tonight!
    1. Between exercises doesnt matter too much but I would limit it to what you need (more on heavy day, none on light day etc...) I take 2 mins between squats-bench and row-press. Bench and press are my weak lifts so I give myself some extra rest before starting the warm ups on bench.

    2. You want to use normal speed, unless your working on some part of bench like lockout strength vs off the body strength etc...

    The slower you go the longer you are time under tension (TUT) which will effect strength for that set. I do some slower negs and explode off chest on light day to mix it up a little.
    This forum is great! Wish I found it years ago.....

  20. #4730
    Registered User wannagoheavy's Avatar
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    I have reported skinnyasrake to mods please do the same and I negged him.
    This forum is great! Wish I found it years ago.....

  21. #4731
    Registered User robosphere's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by makeitright View Post

    1) after I did bent over rows, a personal trainer came over to me to give me some tips on my bench press and rows and we ended up talking for a good 10 minutes or so. So I had an unusually long break between rows and OHP. I know the rest periods are 90 seconds between sets, but what happens when you take 10-15 minutes between exercises? I'd imagine it have a slight effect on endurance, but what about muscle gains/strength? I didn't want to be rude and just walk away, as I really appreciated the advice.

    It's no big whoop. It's a one time thing, it's not like you sit around and read the newspaper for 10 minutes between sets, like some of the old guys at my gym.

  22. #4732
    Registered User Vaylor's Avatar
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    Ugh the Gym was packed today. Waiting 20mins to use the squat rack is really annoying.

  23. #4733
    Registered User mistrvi's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Vaylor View Post
    Ugh the Gym was packed today. Waiting 20mins to use the squat rack is really annoying.
    same at my gym, 4x more people than usually

  24. #4734
    Team Kelei 1fatoldman's Avatar
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    Started Cycle #5 today. Now that that's done, it's time to eat and drink more then I should
    HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!

    Enjoy the night and get ready to lift heavy in 2013
    Soon to be X-Fatoldman :)

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  25. #4735
    Registered User DeltaCharlie75's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 1fatoldman View Post
    Started Cycle #5 today. Now that that's done, it's time to eat and drink more then I should
    HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!

    Enjoy the night and get ready to lift heavy in 2013
    Congrats on the progress.

    Happy New year to you all and keep lifting.

  26. #4736
    Registered User TheBirchman's Avatar
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    Coincidence of timing, my gym went out of business and I had another kid so I had to bail for a couple months. I was either at the end of Cycle 4 or beginning of 5 when I bailed. Ready to get back on it now that the house isn't as crazy so I can take more time getting to a farther gym.

    Quick question: Is it my imagination or did I read somewhere in one of the original 2 threads that All Pro said you can do slightly less reps at heavier weight or was that just someone else asking? I'm probably going to have to start over almost completely after several months off, but I'd like to try less volume with heavier weight to try and get strength up quicker (Say 6-10 vs 8-12). Not as concerned with size. I have a lot of room for improvement strength wise.
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  27. #4737
    Registered User DeltaCharlie75's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TheBirchman View Post
    Coincidence of timing, my gym went out of business and I had another kid so I had to bail for a couple months. I was either at the end of Cycle 4 or beginning of 5 when I bailed. Ready to get back on it now that the house isn't as crazy so I can take more time getting to a farther gym.

    Quick question: Is it my imagination or did I read somewhere in one of the original 2 threads that All Pro said you can do slightly less reps at heavier weight or was that just someone else asking? I'm probably going to have to start over almost completely after several months off, but I'd like to try less volume with heavier weight to try and get strength up quicker (Say 6-10 vs 8-12). Not as concerned with size. I have a lot of room for improvement strength wise.
    I did a search on rep range through the thread a few weeks ago. Iirc he advises to do the the program reps for a few cycles before dropping to lower reps. The reason being the higher reps/ lighter weight help strengthen the tendons as well as the muscles before putting them under the strains of low rep/ high weight. It's worth we'll doing a search yourself as the explainations he provides give good insight into the programming used.

  28. #4738
    Registered User wannagoheavy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TheBirchman View Post
    Coincidence of timing, my gym went out of business and I had another kid so I had to bail for a couple months. I was either at the end of Cycle 4 or beginning of 5 when I bailed. Ready to get back on it now that the house isn't as crazy so I can take more time getting to a farther gym.

    Quick question: Is it my imagination or did I read somewhere in one of the original 2 threads that All Pro said you can do slightly less reps at heavier weight or was that just someone else asking? I'm probably going to have to start over almost completely after several months off, but I'd like to try less volume with heavier weight to try and get strength up quicker (Say 6-10 vs 8-12). Not as concerned with size. I have a lot of room for improvement strength wise.
    He recommends squat,bench,row,ohp all at 5-8 rep range. He also states at some point you can add a set and do 2 heavy days with different rep ranges for the compounds. That will put you close to intermediate. Intermediates can do more volume(lift more weight) but need more recovery time because of it so they lessen the frequency to 2x a week or splits.
    This forum is great! Wish I found it years ago.....

  29. #4739
    Registered User TheBirchman's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info guys.

    Now back to arguing about milk cartons!
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  30. #4740
    Registered User GordtheWard's Avatar
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    Hi guys, so i've been lifting for years as part of playing football so I wouldn't say i'm a beginner, but to be completely honest I never really enjoyed lifting, and would even cut reps/sets out of my lifts.

    Now i'm done playing football and am no longer satisfied with being 20% bodyfat (as an offensive lineman that was perfectly acceptable lol), and want to transform my body

    Ultimately I'm going to get on this program, but my question is what to do first. Is this program ok while eating at a deficit in order to initially lose the fat? Or should I go on some other program while i cut, and then get on this program once that is over?

    Please let me know what you think, and if you think i should cut on a different program please recommend one!

    (ps i fully understand that at the end of the day, cutting bodyfat is 99% about diet, im asking purely from a workout perspective)

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