lol @ people who think free will exists

[zoom88]

brb "you" can't take credit for any of your decisions because you are not the conscious author of your thoughts.
brb you don't choose to choose what you choose.
brb any thoughts you have are just a product of your prior experiences and neuronal processes in the brain.
brb you enjoy lifting weights, but why? Even if you can provide reasons like "because I like the pump", why do you like the pump? *******, you don't even know cause you are just as responsible for your height as you are for what you like and enjoy.

[johnsonbagaroni]

i lol @ people who lol at people who think free will exists

[LifterBrah]

I lol @ people who lol @ people who lol at people who think free exists

[zoom88]

i lol @ people who lol at people who think free will exists

Explain to me what it is that makes you believe the contrary.

[mynameisuntz]

What do you believe, OP?

[Skinnygeorge]

I lol @ people who lol @ people who lol at people who lol @ people who think free will exists

[CannibalJester]

i just lol@

[zoom88]

What do you believe, OP?

When it comes to free will I take the deterministic view point, so in short I believe that free will is just an illusion.

[mynameisuntz]

When it comes to free will I take the deterministic view point, so in short I believe that free will is just an illusion.

Do you believe it's either free will or determinism? Do you believe it's possible for there to be middle ground?

[BrohemianRat]

brb gov't controls everything. /thread

[zoom88]

Do you believe it's either free will or determinism? Do you believe it's possible for there to be middle ground?

I don't think there's any possible room for middle ground. I mean how can you call it free will when you don't even have control over what comes into your consciousness.

People who believe that there's a middle ground believe that you have free will for the reason I stated earlier, "I could go to the gym or I could stay home". But the real question is, why were you thinking about going to the gym in the first place?

[A1RE4]

i lol at you loling at ppl who think free will exists. why do you like loling at ppl who think that free will exists? who is controlling your thoughts?

[lincolnmkv]

Let me test out this free will idea by negging OP.

[Skinnygeorge]

i guess the meaning of free will is merely being able to think and decide but we may never know if free will truly exists in an universal sense

[BushrodButtram]

op: I knew you'd say that.

[farvacola]

words are hollow, yet you stand on them like concrete. be wary.

[wulpurgis]

brb "you" can't take credit for any of your decisions because "you" are not the conscious author of your thoughts
brb you don't choose to choose what you choose
brb any thoughts you have are just a product of your prior experiences and neuronal processes in the brain
brb you like lifting weights but why? Even if you can provide reasons such as "because i like the pump", why do u like the pump? ******* you don't even know cause like i said before you are just as responsible for your height as you are for what you like

came in excited for a curious discussion. read this ****. shook my head. left disappoint. tried to neg the OP but was on recharge.

[zoom88]

It's also interesting to note that many of the decisions you make have actually been made seconds before you are consciously aware of doing so.

[mynameisuntz]

I don't think there's any possible room for middle ground. I mean how can you call it free will when like I said, you don't even have control over what comes into your consciousness.

People who believe that there's middle ground think that you have free will for the purpose I stated earlier, "I could go to the gym or I could stay home". But the real question is, why were you thinking about going to the gym in the first place?

Inability to control what is in your consciousness doesn't remove the concept of will; it simply shifts the idea from free will to conditional will.

There is dependent origination and volitional action. Will exists, but it not unbounded from circumstance. We cannot change or control what arises now, but we do have the ability to respond and change the course of the future due to the uncontrollable now. Of course how we respond is greatly influenced (aka not free), but it is still not determined. Merely influenced.

In your original example: people do not lift because it's determined they will do so. The enjoyment they get from it is due to a myriad of uncontrollable variables which cannot even begin to be counted. But that does not mean they lift because they have no choice in the matter; they have no choice in the enjoyment, but they do have a choice in whether they continue to lift.

Conditional will. Neither free will nor determined.

[NYPat]

Let me test out this free will idea by negging OP.

This.

Hey it worked!

[LGeX]

Well explain fapping then. I can fap at any time I want, but I willed myself to participate in no fap and this I'm not fapping but instead ferociously rubbing my boner along my pillow.

[zoom88]

Inability to control what is in your consciousness doesn't remove the concept of will; it simply shifts the idea from free will to conditional will.

There is dependent origination and volitional action. Will exists, but it not unbounded from circumstance. We cannot change or control what arises now, but we do have the ability to respond and change the course of the future due to the uncontrollable now. Of course how we respond is greatly influenced (aka not free), but it is still not determined. Merely influenced.

In your original example: people do not lift because it's determined they will do so. The enjoyment they get from it is due to a myriad of uncontrollable variables which cannot even begin to be counted. But that does not mean they lift because they have no choice in the matter; they have no choice in the enjoyment, but they do have a choice in whether they continue to lift.

Conditional will. Neither free will nor determined.

I guess this is where we disagree. If they don't have a choice as to whether or not they enjoy it, doesn't that mean that the way they respond to it is also predetermined?

Edit: Also, like I said before your thoughts and decisions are simply a product of prior experiences and neuronal processes in the brain so if you accept that I can't see how you could believe in conditional will. To say that you "could have continued to lift" is like saying I could have lived in another universe if I lived in another universe.

[BushrodButtram]

It's also interesting to note that many of the decisions you make have actually been made seconds before you are consciously aware of doing so.

But that doesn't mean that you didn't make the decisions -- just that they weren't the product of conscious reflection. The nature of conscious reflection is such thta most of our actions are not present in our discursive consciousness.

For instance, if you know how to play the guitar, you don't usually consciously think of each note in the melody and each note in the chords. Playing the guitar is something that you learn to do partly consciously and partly by feel, but by the time you're able to play well, it's a process that kind of runs by itself, with your conscious control operating at the level of structure and expression but not really of individual notes.

We wouldn't say that the guitarist isn't really playing the guitar just because he's not consciously picking all the notes. Likewise, most of our immediate decisions, especially those under time pressure, don't have time to make it to our discursive consciousness, but they're still our decisions.

[Vincent17]

By this logic free will would be random for it to exist unless free will is influenced, however it is still free to change if the influence changes and the very core of it's influence is random so free will is influenced randomly.
Who is to say on some level we cannot determine how this random choice can differ? if not then what does?

Edit: to make some sense, what are our experiences and neurons a product of?
Edit: The answer is that at the end of the line they came about randomly. Randomness is free will if free will is objective
The problem comes when you see free will as subjective to the individual which would cause it to have influence which of course means it's not free as you say and just a product of other factors.

Conclusion: Free will is a random or influenced act, it exists.

[mynameisuntz]

I guess this is where we disagree. If they don't have a choice as to whether or not they enjoy it, doesn't that mean that the way they respond to it is also predetermined?

Elaborate on why it must be determined.

Dependent origination = someone likes lifting. It is dependent because it arose under circumstances which were not controlled by the person.

Volitional action = that someone decides whether he wants to actually pursue the lifting lifestyle, once that appreciation for lifting is recognized - the "user" has now gained some sense of control over the dependent origination of "I like lifting."

[UchihaItachi]

By this logic free will would be random for it to exist unless free will is influenced, however it is still free to change if the influence changes and the very core of it's influence is random so free will is influenced randomly.
Who is to say on some level we cannot determine how this random choice can differ? if not then what does?

what the fu you jus say?

[zoom88]

But that doesn't mean that you didn't make the decisions -- just that they weren't the product of conscious reflection. The nature of conscious reflection is such thta most of our actions are not present in our discursive consciousness.

For instance, if you know how to play the guitar, you don't usually consciously think of each note in the melody and each note in the chords. Playing the guitar is something that you learn to do partly consciously and partly by feel, but by the time you're able to play well, it's a process that kind of runs by itself, with your conscious control operating at the level of structure and expression but not really of individual notes.

We wouldn't say that the guitarist isn't really playing the guitar just because he's not consciously picking all the notes. Likewise, most of our immediate decisions, especially those under time pressure, don't have time to make it to our discursive consciousness, but they're still our decisions.

Think of all the "decisions" being made inside of the human body right now. Am I responsible for whether or not my red blood cells are doing their job? If all of a sudden, they were to stop functioning correctly are you saying that I could take credit for this?

[UchihaItachi]

Elaborate on why it must be determined.

Dependent origination = someone likes lifting. It is dependent because it arose under circumstances which were not controlled by the person.

Volitional action = that someone decides whether he wants to actually pursue the lifting lifestyle, once that appreciation for lifting is recognized - the "user" has now gained some sense of control over the dependent origination of "I like lifting."

[nick187]

brb "you" can't take credit for any of your decisions because "you" are not the conscious author of your thoughts
brb you don't choose to choose what you choose
brb any thoughts you have are just a product of your prior experiences and neuronal processes in the brain
brb you like lifting weights but why? Even if you can provide reasons such as "because i like the pump", why do u like the pump? ******* you don't even know cause like i said before you are just as responsible for your height as you are for what you like

Good stuff.

[mynameisuntz]

Think of all the "decisions" being made inside of the human body right now. Am I responsible for whether or not my red blood cells are doing their job? If all of a sudden, they were to stop functioning correctly are you saying that I could take credit for this?

You're comparing primitive, unconscious bodily functions to consciousness. Even if determinism were absolute, this is still not a logical comparison.