So I finally did an informative video on youtube.

[JasonDB]

I actually train arms with legs on lower days to even out the volume and workload per session lol

Nice! LoL I can dig it. I could see myself deciding to throw in some front squats on an upper body day and some bicep work on lower body days to give my poor bicep development a boost.

Hmm...this seems complicated. lol. I've always done typical 6 day split with tons of volume (35-40 sets) per body part. Legs with twice a week. I want a new routine, but still want it to have lots of volume.

Keep in mind as frequency increases volume per body part increases as well. If you do 5x5 squats 3x a week you end up doing 15 sets of them per week.

If you want very high volume you could easily do Stronglifts 5x5 as a base for example (although at your point you would need a less agressive overload) and add in more work behind it like dumbell inclines, cgbp, weighted chinups, abs, calves, good mornings, arm isos etc. Or you could do a 5x5 based upper lower split 6 days a week if you already prefer 6x a week.

[Ion26]

Keep in mind as frequency increases volume per body part increases as well. If you do 5x5 squats 3x a week you end up doing 15 sets of them per week.

If you want very high volume you could easily do Stronglifts 5x5 as a base for example (although at your point you would need a less agressive overload) and add in more work behind it like dumbell inclines, cgbp, weighted chinups, abs, calves, good mornings, arm isos etc. Or you could do a 5x5 based upper lower split 6 days a week if you already prefer 6x a week.

Okay cool, thanks!

Im gunna piece something together and have you look at it if that cool?

[JasonDB]

Okay cool, thanks!

Im gunna piece something together and have you look at it if that cool?

Sure I don't mind making suggestions on changes.

[Ion26]

Sure I don't mind making suggestions on changes.

So wait one more thing...would all the upper days be the same exercises?

EDIT: How would I fit in all the arms iso's and still not be totally worn out?

[RubenOlivares]

Possibly some thoughts about IFFYM/Flexible dieting, more about training frequency as it pertains to hypertrophy, workload and progressive overload or even some instructional videos on different lifts. There will be lots of videos of me eating ice cream methinks. I might even call it Ice Cream Fitness.

I'd go with this for your next video.

There was a guy with a Youtube channel called "Abs and Ice-Cream" I think it was, but not sure if it still exists.

[Ion26]

Mon-Upper
Deadlifts 5x5
BB Rows 5x5
DB Press 5x5
Incline DB Press 5x5
DB Shoulder Press 5x5
Standing BB Press 5x5
Hammer Curls
Normal Curls
Reverse Curls

Tues-Lower
Squat 10x5
Leg Press 5x8
Leg Sled Machine 4x8
Leg Extension 5x8
Leg Curls 5x8
Abs

Wed-Upper
BB Rows
Lat Pulldowns
DB Press
Incline DB Press
Lateral Raises
Rear delt raises
EZ Bar Skull crushers
Rope pulldowns
Hammer Curls
Normal curls
Another curling exercise

Thurs-Lower
Squat 10x5
Leg Press 5x5
Leg Sled Machine 5x8
Leg Extension 5x8
Leg Curls 5x8
Calves/Abs

Fri-Upper
BB Rows
Lat Pulldowns
Cable Rows
DB Rows
DB Press
DB Shoulder Press
Lateral Raises
Rear delt raises

Sat-Upper

Bi’s/Tri’s/Abs/Calves

-All the curls and pulldown movements/weighted dips/skullcrushers/etc/etc

Sun-REST

All the arm stuff has to stay in.

[Lvisaa2]

Mon-Upper

I still swear that you are a troll.

[eriram]

You aren't alone in 3x a week even for intermediates. Jason Ferruggia and Casey Butt pretty much advocate the same thing.

Now you mentioned Reg Park but wasn't his 5x5 a 2 set warm up followed by the 3 straight worksets, going up when you could get 5 on all three? What are your thoughts on that.

Also there are a couple of 5x5's, For instance the HML, or any variation of, wouldn't that really end up being like an hitting the body 2x with the light workout being more of a well light work out. Or, something like Casey suggests, hitting the body 3x a week but with completely different exercises. Squats, Front Squats, Hack Squats. Deads, Sumo, Trap. DB Bench, Bench, well you get the point.

Sorry if you addressed these issues already. Not trying to start an argument but just a discussion on this.

For a drug free trainee high frequency will produce faster results than doing the same volume push into a single session. Good topic for a video.



If your goal is purely hypertrophy you can disregard strength when you cash in your natty card, but you'll still need to focus on strength to a large extent between rides. The biggest natties are generally also the strongest ones. The only way in which progressive overload (which will always mean getting stronger, increasing weight, increasing reps, increasing workload) can be bypass to any extent as the primary driver of hypertrophy is through drugs. However if you ment a focus on your 1rm, which would be power not strength per se, however if your 5-8 rep sets increase 20% I can assure you your 1rm will increase even if you never do one.

Upperlower splits are popular, but for the intermediate, drug-free trainee seeking maximum size I would stick with full body 3x a week still. The advanced trainee has more leeway in breaking away from this. If you feel you need more work on specific body parts or weaknesses you can always throw in a 4th day for that. Now you could do an upper/lower (I prefer push/pull as it splits by function not arbitrary body part categories... is a squat, deadlift, standing press, push press or barbell row, 5 of the top massbuilders, an upper body or lower body movement? The answer is both... hince why these splits become arbitrary and are means of organizating for psychological purposes, not physiological ones) if that is the way you prefer to train, but unless you are willing to utilize a 3x a week per body part setup (which will have you lifting 3x a week) you will get suboptimal results. You can still get great results, just not optimal results. Now for advanced trainees we could debate this a lot more and neither side would win and people like Lyle do create a good arguement for 2x a week frequency for advanced bodybuilders.



One can already add accessory work to MC, but again keep in mind the way MC is loaded it is a one trick pony. Its a strength routine for the intermediate trainee... inferior to SL for the novice, and the advanced trainee is going to struggle to make strength gains on it. One could just throw in some higher volume work behind it to get additoinal hypertrophy from it if they were so inclined and have the conditioning to volume.

You lack strength-stamina and this is the reason you have seen relatively good gains in strength but hypertrophy hasn't come along with it to a large degree. SS isn't high volume. Your 1rm would increase more slowly yes, your progressive overload would not. Give one of Reg Park's 5x5 setups, for someone of your experience level he wrote a couple, add to it anything you feel it lacks for you personally, for a few months and see how your size comes along.

[Andrew_S]

I'm saving this to watch later. Is this safe for public viewing? How much T&A is in this vid?

[JasonDB]

Mon-Upper
Deadlifts 5x5
BB Rows 5x5
DB Press 5x5
Incline DB Press 5x5
DB Shoulder Press 5x5
Standing BB Press 5x5
Hammer Curls
Normal Curls
Reverse Curls

Tues-Lower
Squat 10x5
Leg Press 5x8
Leg Sled Machine 4x8
Leg Extension 5x8
Leg Curls 5x8
Abs

Wed-Upper
BB Rows
Lat Pulldowns
DB Press
Incline DB Press
Lateral Raises
Rear delt raises
EZ Bar Skull crushers
Rope pulldowns
Hammer Curls
Normal curls
Another curling exercise

Thurs-Lower
Squat 10x5
Leg Press 5x5
Leg Sled Machine 5x8
Leg Extension 5x8
Leg Curls 5x8
Calves/Abs

Fri-Upper
BB Rows
Lat Pulldowns
Cable Rows
DB Rows
DB Press
DB Shoulder Press
Lateral Raises
Rear delt raises

Sat-Upper

Bi’s/Tri’s/Abs/Calves

-All the curls and pulldown movements/weighted dips/skullcrushers/etc/etc

Sun-REST

All the arm stuff has to stay in.

4 upper 2 lower days, although your volume is insanely high with 10 sets of squats each lower day.


-I would cut out the leg extentions, and some of the leg presses and sled work. You've seen my quads, I built those with high volume back squating and some heavy front squats.
-On the 5x5 days use barbells instead of dumbbells, you'll be able to handle more weight and stabiliziling dumbbells that are 80% of your max are difficult on any lift, thus a safety issue on your various presses for chest and shoulders.
-I wouldn't bother with more than one tricep iso on your assorted upper body days, pic ones that put a focus on the long head, as you are doing a lot of pressing and just need to finish off your triceps, the pressing handles most of their development.
-replace those rear delt raises with face pulls, you'll get just as much rear delt development with other benefits
-Training like this make sure your nutrition and rest is in order and pay very close attention to your joints and connective tissue. Take days off if things begin to hurt, and do a lot of active recovery like foam rolling.

You aren't alone in 3x a week even for intermediates. Jason Ferruggia and Casey Butt pretty much advocate the same thing.

Now you mentioned Reg Park but wasn't his 5x5 a 2 set warm up followed by the 3 straight worksets, going up when you could get 5 on all three? What are your thoughts on that.

Also there are a couple of 5x5's, For instance the HML, or any variation of, wouldn't that really end up being like an hitting the body 2x with the light workout being more of a well light work out. Or, something like Casey suggests, hitting the body 3x a week but with completely different exercises. Squats, Front Squats, Hack Squats. Deads, Sumo, Trap. DB Bench, Bench, well you get the point.

Sorry if you addressed these issues already. Not trying to start an argument but just a discussion on this.

I know Casey Butt advocates rotating lifts, I wouldn't other than for the more advanced trainee. Hitting the same lift more frequently produces faster progression, even if one is only doing it 2 out of their 3 days. Although for one who desires metabolic fatigue and its benefits they could do a single day a week using other lifts for higher reps rather than their standard 5x5 done the other two days a week. The lighter days are still stimulating just not to the same degree that the heavier days are, but are less taxing to the system, and are a wise idea for natural trainees... enhanced guys can generally just push through and do heavy days most days. The lighter days can still respark protein synthesis and help continue the growth stimulated from the heavier session 2 days before.

True Reg Park did not do sets across he did 2 warmup sets with 3 work sets as his 5x5, and that is a viable method as he did use relatively heavy weights for those first two sets. Meaning if he did 495 on his squats for the final sets he still did 315x5 and 405x5 for the first two, which still adds to his overall workload when using relatively heavy weights for sub optimal sets. Also Reg tended to do multiple lifts per body part for 5x5 so ended up with 6 or even 9 sets of 5 with 80%+ intensity... so ultimately, through mixed lifts, ended up doing more than 5 work sets. My listing of Reg Park was more to illustrate that 5x5s have been with us a very long time and many variations have produced fantasticly thick and powerful physiques in bodybuilders long before anyone had ever heard of a body-part split or before cell tech was even common. Some of these individuals produced physiques beyond the goals of the vast majority of lifters who consider themselves serious. My point was more that 5x5 has a strong historical basis, and even though many variations exist (as we would expect for something various champions have used for 50+ years) that maximum hypertrophy can be achieved working within this type of system and that the 8-12 rep range, while it has its benefits is not "superior for hypertrophy" in the context of proper volume and frequency, but just one of many useful tools.

I'm saving this to watch later. Is this safe for public viewing? How much T&A is in this vid?

This one is work safe, no profanity or nudity. My shirt and shorts stay on.

[Ion26]

4 upper 2 lower days, although your volume is insanely high with 10 sets of squats each lower day.


-I would cut out the leg extentions, and some of the leg presses and sled work. You've seen my quads, I built those with high volume back squating and some heavy front squats.
-On the 5x5 days use barbells instead of dumbbells, you'll be able to handle more weight and stabiliziling dumbbells that are 80% of your max are difficult on any lift, thus a safety issue on your various presses for chest and shoulders.
-I wouldn't bother with more than one tricep iso on your assorted upper body days, pic ones that put a focus on the long head, as you are doing a lot of pressing and just need to finish off your triceps, the pressing handles most of their development.
-replace those rear delt raises with face pulls, you'll get just as much rear delt development with other benefits
-Training like this make sure your nutrition and rest is in order and pay very close attention to your joints and connective tissue. Take days off if things begin to hurt, and do a lot of active recovery like foam rolling.

Awesome, I'll incorporate all those changes. This amount of volume should be exciting.

[dukend]

Awesome, I'll incorporate all those changes. This amount of volume should be exciting.

Someone PM'd me the other day asking if I "knew" you.... wtf?


DramaLLama090
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you know ion26?
Do you know him in person?

[eriram]

I know Casey Butt advocates rotating lifts, I wouldn't other than for the more advanced trainee. Hitting the same lift more frequently produces faster progression, even if one is only doing it 2 out of their 3 days. Although for one who desires metabolic fatigue and its benefits they could do a single day a week using other lifts for higher reps rather than their standard 5x5 done the other two days a week.

I did try this a few years ago and did horribly on it, the rotating lifts I mean. I wouldn't do it again. I could see how the genetically elite, could thrive on that.

The lighter days are still stimulating just not to the same degree that the heavier days are, but are less taxing to the system, and are a wise idea for natural trainees... enhanced guys can generally just push through and do heavy days most days. The lighter days can still respark protein synthesis and help continue the growth stimulated from the heavier session 2 days before.

Do you think the lighter days help more with the fact that you are just doing the exercise more (frequency)?

True Reg Park did not do sets across he did 2 warmup sets with 3 work sets as his 5x5, and that is a viable method as he did use relatively heavy weights for those first two sets. Meaning if he did 495 on his squats for the final sets he still did 315x5 and 405x5 for the first two, which still adds to his overall workload when using relatively heavy weights for sub optimal sets. Also Reg tended to do multiple lifts per body part for 5x5 so ended up with 6 or even 9 sets of 5 with 80%+ intensity... so ultimately, through mixed lifts, ended up doing more than 5 work sets. My listing of Reg Park was more to illustrate that 5x5s have been with us a very long time and many variations have produced fantasticly thick and powerful physiques in bodybuilders long before anyone had ever heard of a body-part split or before cell tech was even common. Some of these individuals produced physiques beyond the goals of the vast majority of lifters who consider themselves serious.

My point was more that 5x5 has a strong historical basis, and even though many variations exist (as we would expect for something various champions have used for 50+ years) that maximum hypertrophy can be achieved working within this type of system and that the 8-12 rep range, while it has its benefits is not "superior for hypertrophy" in the context of proper volume and frequency, but just one of many useful tools.

Yeah, the past definitely can't be discounted, I guess the argument for most is "Is there a better way?" Not doubt you've read Lyle's stuff here, but I'll put up a section here.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus...ass-gains.html

However, outside of that one situation, I find that there are some major drawbacks to the idea of training full body three times per week for optimal growth. One of these is that once trainees start handling heavy loads, full body workouts can become incredibly difficult to complete: the loading used in exercises done early in the workout tend to severely limit what can be done later in the workout and something invariably suffers.


This is especially true if heavy leg training is done at the front of the workout: this often leaves about zero energy for the rest of the workout. And performing leg training last often means that it suffers. Back squatting heavily with a tired shoudler girdle after upper body training is problematic at best and dangerous at worst.

Now this shouldn't be a problem for most unless their work capacity sucks. I know that Lyle has recommended "hardgainers" improve their work capacity by including more volume into their routine, along with frequency. Still if their work capacity totally sucks then maybe an upper/lower split (like the example you gave), especially if, like Lyle mentions that their shoulder girdle is tired .

Additionally, there is at least some indication that there is an optimal training volume per muscle group (a topic I’ll cover in a later article) and achieving that volume in the context of a full body workout tends to become nearly impossible without the workout being several hours long.

Personally I've always liked short rests, I know Lyle like the longer rests but, again, work capacity could become a problem for some.

So under most circumstances, I don’t find that hitting each muscle group three times per week is optimal for most trainees. It can be accomplished with proper cycling of intensity for the different bodyparts but since, in my experience, bodybuilders like to train hard pretty much all of the time, suggestions to do that often fall on deaf ears.

Pretty much if you don't train like an idiot, 3x a week can work. But that's true of anything. I know you said that there isn't a best way to gain hypertrophy and think you did an excellent job of defending the higher frequency. As in all things lifting personal preference and consistency will win out over the flip floppers.

About how many exercises would you recommend? One thing Jason Ferruggia has recommended is one push/pull/leg combo per workout but that's too few exercises for my taste.

I'm thinking.
Squat
2 push/pull combos
possibly biceps
Lower back (with heavy deads once a week as one becomes more advanced)
abs/calves

One thing I did forget to ask in my previous post was the push/pull split. Which do you recommend? Because it can become like a bro split, working out a bodypart only 1x a week. Ex.

M-Push
T-Off
W-Legs
Th-Off
F-Pull

This really is like a bro split with frequency being 1x a week.

M-Push
T-Pull
W-Legs
Th-Push
F-Pull
S-Legs
Sun-off

Now frequency is 3x a week but the with a lot more gym time.

Unless you are suggesting a different type of setup I'm not seeing.

[JasonDB]

I'm familiar with Lyle's work... the criticism of two points he made towards full body 3x per week is one, the length of the workout becoming hours long to get enough volume for optimal growth once a tolerance to training workload has been developed to which I reply, "Yes this is true... so what? Achieve optimal gains or get left in the dust." I train several hours a day when doing full body like that. The other being the difficulty of completing the workloads once a high level of strength is developped and doing legs first... to which I also reply, "This is also true... stop being a *******. This is what seperates the men from the boys."

Push day 1, pull day 2, legs day 3, off day 4 is very very popular in enhanced circles for people using moderately high amounts but not IFBB amounts, and it works very well. More of what I ment for push pull (squats would be pushing, deadlifts would be pulling etc) was something like

Sun Off
Mon Push
Tues Pull
Wed Off
Thurs Push
Friday Pull
Sunday Off
This can work for the more advanced trainee with a lot of volume each day and I think it is a bit better than upper/lower

Or for those seeking very high frequency and optimal gains, assuming they can recover and their connective tissue and joints can handle the beating... you may be limited in how long you can run this type of setup:

Mon Push
Tues Pull
Wed Push
Thurs Pull
Friday Push
Sunday Pull

Or one could even take the middle ground with 2.5 push and 2.5 pull days on average per week by doing 5 days a week and alternating days to where they get 3 push one week, 2 push the next and 2 pull days one week and 3 the next.

[Ion26]

Someone PM'd me the other day asking if I "knew" you.... wtf?


DramaLLama090
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Join Date: Apr 2011 Age: 21 Stats: 5'10", 180 lbs Posts: 742 Rep Power: 159

you know ion26?
Do you know him in person?

Yeah, that kid has been stalking me and trying to misc detective me. He's trying to aware my GF about a thread I made about her LOL.

Why would he PM you? Lol

[ErickStevens]

ITT: Over thinking.

[JasonDB]

ITT: Over thinking.

Shut up and pick up something heavy.

[BunkMoreland]

ITT: Over thinking.

Strongly agree

[JasonDB]

Strongly agree

I can make it all more simple:

Lift heavy, lift often, focus on adding weight or adding reps continually and you will grow if the food and rest are there to allow for it. LoL

[psychodiver9]

Yeah, that kid has been stalking me and trying to misc detective me. He's trying to aware my GF about a thread I made about her LOL.

Why would he PM you? Lol

I got the same pm

[eriram]

Cool, thanks for the detailed responses. So in the example you have for Push Pull,

Push
Squat
Front Squat/ or lunges
Bench
Press
calves
Tri's maybe

Pull
Deads/possibly back ext
Rows
Pullups
Bi's
Abs

Shoulder work like band stuff or scarecrows here and there.

Same thing, 5x5, then hitting 8-12 for a couple of sets OR doing a few of the exercises 5x5 the first workout then doing 8-12 on the second half and adding more exercises per bodypart to increase volume as experience comes.

I can make it all more simple:

Lift heavy, lift often, focus on adding weight or adding reps continually and you will grow if the food and rest are there to allow for it. LoL

Yeah but that doesn't sell very well.

[IgboMeso]

Could do with a better mike. Looking very Bane-ish Op. Mirin.

[JasonDB]

Could do with a better mike. Looking very Bane-ish Op. Mirin.

I have a new mic made an Ian McCarthy callout video that is uploading now. I might want to get mod permission before posting here.

[NegatronPrime]

I have a new mic made an Ian McCarthy callout video

whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy for the love of god whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[JasonDB]

whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy for the love of god whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

It will get noticed. I was bored and did it whilst cooking my honey bourbon chicken... more informative videos to come shortly.

[Xfaxtor]

Ian callout vid NSFW.. Just sayin

[JasonDB]

Ian callout vid NSFW.. Just sayin

I squirt a little honey on my bicep and lick it off but my penor stays in my pants... what is the problem, brohamalis?

[Xfaxtor]

I squirt a little honey on my bicep and lick it off but my penor stays in my pants... what is the problem, brohamalis?

It could have been smooth sailing from there on out, didnt stay around to find out lol

[miacanesfan25]

It will get noticed. I was bored and did it whilst cooking my honey bourbon chicken... more informative videos to come shortly.

This should be fun. Also, what's your recipe for honey bourbon chicken?

[miacanesfan25]

I an, lol. Priceless. More bicep licking next time.