Cutting or Bulking: How Strict are You REALLY, with Diet & Nutrition?

[FortySixPak]

I found the list of clean foods on the forum, it's here if you're interested in it...
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...7266371&page=1

So I'm 200lbs at 6' 0" about 20% BF and I've begun Starting Strength at age 46. I have NEVER lifted in my life; although I worked in construction for years, which was very rigorous at times, I was pretty damn close to sedentary before making the changes that brought me here BB.com.

I enjoy healthy foods, and to be honest, there isn't much I don't eat that's on the list. I have been living on Chicken, fish, eggs, whey protein supp, skim milk, Greek Yogurt, oatmeal. A decent amount of grilled veggies, Salads occasionally, and probably too much fruit from which I have cut down this past week. I also dropped the cottage cheese for a while because I was eating 2-3 quarts a week.

I have to say, I've been a pretty grouchy SOB and my research points to maybe my high protein diet.

My problem is that I like crap too. I like ice cream, cookies and other sweets form time to time. I QUIT the sugar in my coffee, which for years I was adding 2 tablespoons to a cup and drinking 4-6 a day, sometimes more. I have avoided sugar as much as possible since Feb, but haven't been anything like a saint...and fear I don't have total abstinence in me. A once or twice a week splurge seems to get me through.

So really, HOW STRICT ARE YOU??? What is acceptable? What can I expect after eating 7 ounces of Hagen Daz? I'm also just wondering about the level of discipline other people have when body building.

With 30 minutes a day on the elliptical 5-6 days a week, and lifting SS three days a week and now I've added an arm w/o too on 2 days week...How many CALs should I be getting now...???
FOOKIN CONFUSED about the nutrition, I tell ya...

To be honest, I'm no longer sure how I should be eating...or should I say, How Much...
This journey began as a fat loss thing, but now I have lost a lot of fat and I know that if I keep on track it's in MY CONTROL. At first I was worried about losing the fat.

NOW, I think that maybe I should be eating more and LIFTING MORE. Maybe if I just lift and eat (within reason of course) I'll add bulk and the fat will continue to decline to acceptable (for me) levels.

[DSUP]

TL;DR but 1rd

[BloodySalad]

Strong bro-science in that link.

Clean foods to me are the ones you've washed under the tap.

Fact is, it doesn't matter what a food is called, dieting is all about calories in < calories out. You want ice-cream? Eat ice-cream. You want pizza? Eat pizza. Just make sure it's not taking you over your calorie limit and that you're getting in the right macros, vitamins and minerals elsewhere.

[acrawlingchaos]

I think I posted the below information for you. Read these if you haven't been able to. These links explain well the in an outs of diet.

Adjust diet accordingly.

Diet info.

Determining macro and caloric needs.
http://www.emma-leigh.com/basics_calorie_needs.html
The only way to lose fat is to eat with a deficit, while gaining is a matter of surplus (outside of a few conditions). Following the guidelines here will allow you to coodinate your intake according to goal.

Some additional suggested reading below.

"If it fits your Macros".
http://www.iifym.com/
This is a concept that you can eat whatever foods you enjoy, as long as you hit your minimum macros without going over your total intake.


Critique of the ISSN.
http://www.leangains.com/2011/04/cri...d-on-meal.html
This article will help dispel some of the most common dieting myths on timing and frequency.




Be patient and consistent.
Even the best program and diet will fail if you quit. Developing the body you want takes a considerable amount of time. Don't hurry anything. After reading through this material, if you have any additional questions... we will be more than willing to help you dial in your training and diet. Do some investigation, research, and come back with more specific questions.

The majority of the result with diet are hitting your calories and macros., regardless of food choice. The closer we can stay to maintenance on either a bulk or split, the better the results. A small surplus will minimize adipose increase, while small deficits will minimize the loss of lean mass.

I personally indulge in foods that others may shy away from, as labeled "dirty". I have successfully added these into a strict diet that hits my macro goals perfectly.

[drudixon]

I've never subscribed to clean or dirty just what helps me hit my macros.

[satoups]

In the off season I try to eat clean 90% of the time. I choose a couple of weekend meals to knock it out.I do occasionally have those dinner meetings during the week also. The days that I eat a "dirty meal" I never take the whole day and blow it. I will choose only one meal throughout the day to eat what ever I am craving. You have to live a little and enjoy life and its pleasures. I have seen more progress this way than sticking to my guns 100% of the time. Now pre-contest is a different game....
My gauge in the off-season is as long as my cheat hangs over my gut, I'm good lol.....

[cmoore]

I'm very strict calorie wise, fairly strict macro wise, attentive to micros, and I eat whatever/whenever I want as long as I can fit a food in my plan.

"If it fits your macros" works for me. YMMV.

[Jasonk282]

LOL at clean food...

As long as you hit your total calories for the day it doesn't matter. If you like the sweets, just keep it at moderation.

[dazlittle]

I'm not strict with my food choices as I don't go for the clean/unclean food types. I hit 3000 calories a day with a minimum of 200g Protien, 100G fat the rest is a free for all.

Yesterday I had 500 calories to go so I had 2 pints of guinness!

I've lost 15Lbs of fat over the last 8 weeks.

[tryintorebuild]

I mentioned this in one other thread, but I've found an app that I think really helps. It works on Iphone or android and it's called My Fitness Pal. It does a good job helping count calories. Even has a scanner so you can just hit the barcode on any prepackaged food you have. I haven't found anything I eat not to be listed, it even has the calories/protein/fat/vitamin count for venison (a staple in my diet).
You can go with a precalculated calorie or plan or set your own. I've only been using it about 3 weeks and I think I'm finding that I need a few more calories than it suggest. Just planning to watch the weight a couple of weeks before I make any adjustments.

Oh and a word of advice. If the person who prepares your food isn't into body building you might be careful with the "clean/not clean" wordage. I'm gonna eat better when my jaw heals

[Jasonk282]

I mentioned this in one other thread, but I've found an app that I think really helps. It works on Iphone or android and it's called My Fitness Pal. It does a good job helping count calories. Even has a scanner so you can just hit the barcode on any prepackaged food you have. I haven't found anything I eat not to be listed, it even has the calories/protein/fat/vitamin count for venison (a staple in my diet).
You can go with a precalculated calorie or plan or set your own. I've only been using it about 3 weeks and I think I'm finding that I need a few more calories than it suggest. Just planning to watch the weight a couple of weeks before I make any adjustments.

Oh and a word of advice. If the person who prepares your food isn't into body building you might be careful with the "clean/not clean" wordage. I'm gonna eat better when my jaw heals

I also recommend my fitness pal app. Been using it since Feb ad I went from 165lbs to 185lbs. I like that it has 5 week incriments so i just keep adding 5lbs each 5 weeks. My goal is to hit 200lbs hopefully by next Feb.

[tryintorebuild]

I also recommend my fitness pal app. Been using it since Feb ad I went from 165lbs to 185lbs. I like that it has 5 week incriments so i just keep adding 5lbs each 5 weeks. My goal is to hit 200lbs hopefully by next Feb.

I've had mine set to maintain weight. Don't know if you can do this, but I'm just trying to swap fat for muscle. I don't think I'm dialed in yet. As of this morning, I was about a half a pound lighter than I was Monday.
But I really like the way it tells me at the end of the day how much protein, fat, and carbs I've consumed. I've been cutting for about 4 months now and I've really noticed a loss in strength. After looking at a breakdown of my diet, I realized I was not getting near enough carbs. So this week I've been adding more carbs in and I feel a lot stronger. But the good thing is this app helps me not go overboard with adding carbs.

[lunchbreak]

I now track food very carefully in the manner that many others here do with smartphone apps and a cheap kitchen scale. Of course you have to take food labelling with a pinch of salt, they are often "typical values" rather than exact. I didn't used to be so strict, but I've always been a "healthy" eater as I was brought up in a house with a type 1 diabetic father (insulin dependent since he hit puberty) so never really developed a sweet tooth or a penchant for snacking. Most of my meals thoughout my life have been lowish carb and full of fresh produce. The problem I have is that hunger just isn't a very good indicator for me. If I just go by being hungry there will be days where I drastically under eat and some where I pig out. Sure in the long run these might balance themselves but as others point out the consistency of being always under or always over according to your goals makes an enourmous difference.

[Jasonk282]

I've had mine set to maintain weight. Don't know if you can do this, but I'm just trying to swap fat for muscle. I don't think I'm dialed in yet. As of this morning, I was about a half a pound lighter than I was Monday.
But I really like the way it tells me at the end of the day how much protein, fat, and carbs I've consumed. I've been cutting for about 4 months now and I've really noticed a loss in strength. After looking at a breakdown of my diet, I realized I was not getting near enough carbs. So this week I've been adding more carbs in and I feel a lot stronger. But the good thing is this app helps me not go overboard with adding carbs.

Don't know how far along in your training you are(beginner, intermediate or advanced) but doing a recomp(fat for muscle) as a beginner is possible for a few months...after that it's pretty much bulk/cut cycles. typically 3 bulks to 1 cut, IMO.

[tryintorebuild]

Don't know how far along in your training you are(beginner, intermediate or advanced) but doing a recomp(fat for muscle) as a beginner is possible for a few months...after that it's pretty much bulk/cut cycles. typically 3 bulks to 1 cut, IMO.

I'm a constant beginner. I have lifted on and off for my entire life, but when I'm off... I'm off. I've been 235 and I've been 170 in the last 5 years. My family talks about the will power I have when I diet. They see it as incredible that I can avoid pretty much all junk food.
But just like with weight lifting, I'm pretty much an all or nothing guy. I don't eat just one doughnut, or one piece of pie. When I fall off the wagon I fall hard. If I let myself eat one piece of cake, I will devour the whole thing.
So, I'm not new to lifting. But my body responds like I am, because I'm new to it again.

[southparkbbb]

dont rlly go by "clean" or "dirty" foods, just try hit my calories/protein/fat/carbs for the day; however, when im cutting i try to eat less nutrient dense food (ie veggies) in order to not be hungry alll the time; that and drinkin 1.5-2 gallons of water/day helps a ton

[chickeneater]

I'm very strict calorie wise, fairly strict macro wise, attentive to micros, and I eat whatever/whenever I want as long as I can fit a food in my plan.

"If it fits your macros" works for me. YMMV.

Op, I was chuckling the other day when I read that this guy puts cups of half-n-half in his whey shakes. If that doesn't sway you to read up on Iifym nothing will.

[FortySixPak]

But just like with weight lifting, I'm pretty much an all or nothing guy. I don't eat just one doughnut, or one piece of pie. When I fall off the wagon I fall hard. If I let myself eat one piece of cake, I will devour the whole thing.

Ah ya, I can totally relate to this and this is really has what has kept me in check so far. Just like you say....All or Nothing...and it's been that way now with the bodybuilding too. Basically, in my life, if I ain't obsessed with it, it ain't gettin done! And if I am, well, watch out.

[ironwill2008]

I found the list of clean foods.....

Rather than getting hung up on "clean" vs. "dirty" foods, start looking at what's actually in the foods you like/would like to include in your nutrition plan.




For example:






Use some good judegment, some good common sense, and some discipline. You don't have to hate your food; if you do, yourdoinitwrong.

[FortySixPak]

I think I posted the below information for you. Read these if you haven't been able to. These links explain well the in an outs of diet.

The majority of the result with diet are hitting your calories and macros., regardless of food choice. The closer we can stay to maintenance on either a bulk or split, the better the results. A small surplus will minimize adipose increase, while small deficits will minimize the loss of lean mass.

I personally indulge in foods that others may shy away from, as labeled "dirty". I have successfully added these into a strict diet that hits my macro goals perfectly.

ACC, I did read that information last time you posted it for me, did my calculations and actually followed my diet closely for a few weeks using My Fitness Pal. To be honest, I'm going back through the information AGAIN, later tonight, and starting the whole thing over because I have been slacking. I'm starting to see I don't like this part of bodybuilding---the confusion for me is a really just REFUSAL to believe I am going to have exercise a certain level of discipline in order to achieve my goals. The GOOD NEWS is that it isn't as bad as I think I've been really uptight about diet & nutrition, and starting to relax since reading these replies here this morning. REPPED, thanks again for reminding me.

The other reason for this thread...I really want to know what people are, and aren't eating. So far I am surprised, because basically everyone is saying I eat what the hell I want...

[FortySixPak]

Op, I was chuckling the other day when I read that this guy puts cups of half-n-half in his whey shakes. If that doesn't sway you to read up on Iifym nothing will.

CHUCKLING! SH*T I just had oatmeal shoot out of my nose on this one...! You know it's funny, I'm pretty damn new here but I think I read a rumor about Cmoore and his cream somewhere around here before.

[FortySixPak]

Use some good judegment, some good common sense, and some discipline. You don't have to hate your food; if you do, yourdoinitwrong.

As usual IronWill, I'm complicating matters again and contemplating stuff that has already been figured out by people with light years of experience on this subject. The answers are already out there...

Fact is...outside of the occasional binge on sweets, my food preferences have always leaned toward the healthier side.

[FortySixPak]

I'm very strict calorie wise, fairly strict macro wise, attentive to micros, and I eat whatever/whenever I want as long as I can fit a food in my plan.

"If it fits your macros" works for me. YMMV.

Looks like you've only been eating Tiger Meat

Are the guy that drinks Half n Half ??? Ya know it's funny...I've always loved the taste of that. I can remember as a kid drinking it like shots at the Diner and my Mom yelling at me to cut it out... Then more recently, finding a gas station that had the stuff coming out of a dispenser for crying out loud, and filling a 16oz to go cup with it...no coffee, which "THEY" think it's intended for LOL.

[lunchbreak]

I can't stand cream but love nuts like cashews etc, so thats where I turn when my fats are too low in a day.

[tryintorebuild]

Rather than getting hung up on "clean" vs. "dirty" foods, start looking at what's actually in the foods you like/would like to include in your nutrition plan.




For example:






Use some good judegment, some good common sense, and some discipline. You don't have to hate your food; if you do, yourdoinitwrong.

I'm with on this. To me "dirty" food is basically anything that does little to satisfy my hunger yet gives me lots of calories and little nutrition. ie. cake, candy bars, cookies. I don't consider a hamburger junk food, unless you add mayo or dressing. But then my burgers are grilled venison with just enough pork to hold the meat together.

Cake is a problem for me, because my wife is the "cake boss" for our family, church and friends. She has quite the artistic flare. And her metabolism is incredible. She can eat what she wants and still has great abs. Course, it could be the difference in our activity levels too. My idea of relaxing in the pool is a diet coke and an inner tube (yes I'm a redneck), hers is a game of water volleyball. I come home from work and sit down to watch the olympics and she comes home from work and starts running errands for the church.

[ironwill2008]

.... basically everyone is saying I eat what the hell I want...

I wouldn't say ^^^^ this is entirely true, unless you add in, "...........as long as it fits into my daily requirement of macros, micros, and calories."



In particular, re-read post #7, and then take another look at cmoore's avatar. He's speaking the plain truth.

...outside of the occasional binge on sweets, my food preferences have always leaned toward the healthier side.

Then you've already won better than half the battle.

The other part of it is to sit down and figure out how you can fit into your daily nutrition plan a reasonable-sized portion or two of whatever the heck it is that you're currently labeling as 'binge' items. You'll be more-satiated, and far less likely to then actually fall off the wagon on a full-blown 'binge.'

[acrawlingchaos]

.the confusion for me is a really just REFUSAL to believe I am going to have exercise a certain level of discipline in order to achieve my goals. The GOOD NEWS is that it isn't as bad as I think I've been really uptight about diet & nutrition, and starting to relax since reading these replies here this morning. REPPED, thanks again for reminding me.

The other reason for this thread...I really want to know what people are, and aren't eating. So far I am surprised, because basically everyone is saying I eat what the hell I want...

What I find, is that when you do count (if you chose to), is that you can figure fairly precisely what you need. When you attempt to "eat clean" the result is typically under eating. The under eating... will often create too steep of a deficit and excessive hunger. Counting has made me realize that a smaller deficit is more sustainable and sustainability = consistency.

Macro breakdown is also important.... and as long as you hit your macro goals without going over cals you will move forward.

To give you an idea of what I eat. Yesterday I wanted something sweet and salty.

1 Amp Energy Drink (full flavor)
1 Snickers Bar
1 Chobani Yogurt
2 Protein Shots
1 Package sausage links (20 links)
1 Banana
1 serv strawberries
1 Pepsi Next
4 Servings of bacon.

My salt content was high (still less than 3 grams) and macros were.

155 carbs
179 protein
110 fat

Calories came out to 2325 (goal is 2300-2400)

I don't eat like this every day, but 2 or 3 days a week I will, and it makes my diet enjoyable and sustainable.

[ironwill2008]

.. enjoyable and sustainable.

^^^^ Key words for nutritional success, right here.

[Jasonk282]

I'm with on this. To me "dirty" food is basically anything that does little to satisfy my hunger yet gives me lots of calories and little nutrition. ie. cake, candy bars, cookies. I don't consider a hamburger junk food, unless you add mayo or dressing. But then my burgers are grilled venison with just enough pork to hold the meat together.

Cake is a problem for me, because my wife is the "cake boss" for our family, church and friends. She has quite the artistic flare. And her metabolism is incredible. She can eat what she wants and still has great abs. Course, it could be the difference in our activity levels too. My idea of relaxing in the pool is a diet coke and an inner tube (yes I'm a redneck), hers is a game of water volleyball. I come home from work and sit down to watch the olympics and she comes home from work and starts running errands for the church.

Had it been a PBR and not a diet coke...that would make you a redneck LOL.

[flatiron]

For me, there's Plan A then everything else. I try to make sure my Plan A is "clean", which to me means getting my carbs from fruit and whole grains instead of processed and sugary. But if I hit the evening and I've got a good amount of calories left, I like to finish off with some "dirty" pleasures, which for me is chocolate or ice cream. I generally stay away from totally carby/starchy/processed crap simply because I would rather spend my calories on chocolate or ice cream. And if I know I am going out to eat that night, I like to skimp during the day so that I can have some dessert without a self-imposed guilt trip.

It's all about keeping sane and not feeling like I am depriving myself. If I can have chocolate and/or ice cream a few times a week, and a dessert when I go out to eat then I don't feel deprived. My sanity is more important than being strictly "clean" all the time.