Smith Machine BLEW my shoulder

[Andrew_WOT]

My mate destroyed his rotator cuff using a Smith for military presses. There are so many reasons I don't use it for anything other than shrugs and weighted calf raises (which it's great for, IMO).

This pretty much sums it up: http://befitandstrong.com/why-the-sm...t-you-can-use/

Great article, agree with everything said. Repped.

[sherman]

Rippetoe is a strength coach, who knows, and cares, nothing about bodybuilding.

While the overall site is about bodybuilding, the "workout equipment" forum is more oriented towards powerlifting (or powerlifting lifts). The standard response to newbies looking for basic equipment recommendations is: bench, power rack, olympic barbell/weight set, and Rippletoe's book. The common emphasis is on the powerlifting movements, bench, squats, deads. Rippletoe has hero status on this forum, and I think it is deserved.

Most of the forum members have lots of other equipment - enough to do bodybuilding training. Lots of members are bodybuilders, but bench, rack, olympic is the message.

[ironwill2008]

Rippletoe has hero status on this forum, and I think it is deserved.

.

You're obviously not a bodybuilder.

[Andrew_WOT]

Rippetoe is a strength coach, who knows, and cares, nothing about bodybuilding.

So what is bodybuilding, 1000+ single joint isolation exercises? Sounds more like a bodyrefinement to me not a "building". Progressive poundage core exercises is what adds muscles, isn't that what Rip teaches us. As well as Stuart McRobert, Pavel Tsatsouline, Bill Star, Reg Park...
If they don't know nothing about bodybuilding, who does, "Muscle Magazine"?

LOL, and everything started as an innocent smith machine thread.

[ironwill2008]

So what is bodybuilding, 1000+ single joint isolation exercises? Sounds more like a bodyrefinement to me not a "building". Progressive poundage core exercises is what adds muscles, isn't that what Rip teaches us. As well as Stuart McRobert, Pavel Tsatsouline, Bill Star, Reg Park...
If they don't know nothing about bodybuilding, who does, "Muscle Magazine"?

LOL, and everything started as an innocent smith machine thread.

Why not go to the man himself? He posts regulary on his own site; ask him there what he knows about bodybuilding:
*Rip's forum: http://www.startingstrength.com/reso...orum/index.php


BTW, this thread is about Smith machines, not Rippetoe; let's try to stay OT.

[MeatFalafel]

Lulz. What a load of BS.

If the Smith is so "dangerous," according to that fairy tale in your link, why on earth are you still using it for anything?

I would've thought it was clear. The two exercises stated require very little range of motion. Shrugs with a barbell follow exactly the same path as they would using a Smith machine. Calf raises purely due to lack of other equipment. If you want to use the Smith then carry on with it pal, I was stating why I don't.. And there's a ton of anecdotal evidence suggesting the Smith is a dodgy bit of kit. It just doesn't feel right on my joints and ligaments, which is why I researched and found the article to start with.

[ironwill2008]

. And there's a ton of anecdotal evidence suggesting the Smith is a dodgy bit of kit.

Youtube is loaded with vids of well-developed bodybuilders doing a vast number of exercises on Smith machines. I'd say that's convincing anecdotal evidence that the Smith, (along with every other piece of gym equipment) has merit.

[MeatFalafel]

Youtube is loaded with vids of well-developed bodybuilders doing a vast number of exercises on Smith machines. I'd say that's convincing anecdotal evidence that the Smith, (along with every other piece of gym equipment) has merit.

YouTube is also loaded with vids of well-developed bodybuilders recommending various supplements which have negligible evidence suggesting they have any positive effect. The fitness industry is big business and machines were a bit of a fraud to begin with.

You referred to the article linked as a "fairy tale" but haven't specifically challenged the (very good) points within it, regarding natural range of motion etc.

I accept that the Smith may be used successfully by many people, and you're clearly an experienced bodybuilder BUT I personally find it uncomfortable and my mate still has a dodgy rotator cuff from using it for mil presses.

[ironwill2008]

.. I personally find it uncomfortable ...

Then don't use it. But just because something doesn't work for you doesn't automatically mean everyone should avoid whatever it is that is causing you an issue.


People in this, as well as every other forum on this site, need to learn to start thinking for themselves.

[Andrew_WOT]

Youtube is loaded with vids of well-developed bodybuilders doing a vast number of exercises on Smith machines. I'd say that's convincing anecdotal evidence that the Smith, (along with every other piece of gym equipment) has merit.

You reply reminded me that episode from Pumping Iron.

[MeatFalafel]

Then don't use it. But just because something doesn't work for you doesn't automatically mean everyone should avoid whatever it is that is causing you an issue.


People in this, as well as every other forum on this site, need to learn to start thinking for themselves.

Surely by saying that I respect that you use it, but it personally doesn't work for me demonstrates that I am thinking for myself?

Also, the whole purpose of a forum is to share and discuss things rather than work everything out alone. OP said Smith Machine hurt him, people have either concurred or disagreed and people now have a better insight into the pros and cons of a Smith machine. And claiming that something has worked for you and disregarding evidence against a said method doesn't mean that it's correct. Its like claiming smoking hasn't killed you after 40 years so it carries no danger.


So, how about the activation of stabilising muscles in free weight exercises VS Smith machine?

[MeatFalafel]

You reply reminded me that episode from Pumping Iron.

Great scene! "I thought you were supposed to be strong!"

But yeah haha, exactly my point. And I believe the story behind machines being introduced into gyms involved a man hiring some big juiced bodybuilder who'd trained using freeweights to promote these weight machines. Just like Jay and Ronnie got to that size using whey. The bodybuilding fitness industry is horribly corrupted by marketing, and has been forever.. Think back to all the elixirs for strength etc. historically..

[donforeman]

Surely by saying that I respect that you use it, but it personally doesn't work for me demonstrates that I am thinking for myself?
And claiming that something has worked for you and disregarding evidence against a said method doesn't mean that it's correct. Its like claiming smoking hasn't killed you after 40 years so it carries no danger. So, how about the activation of stabilising muscles in free weight exercises VS Smith machine?

I'm sorry, but seriously this is backward! Every exercise has some risk and just not using a Smith machine will not keep a person that doesn't listen to their body safe. You can hurt yourself in a Power rack just as fast if your stupid! I know! The original poster was blaming the smith for his injury when in all likely hood he only injured himself while using a smith machine and if he continues training n the same manner on other gym equipment - he will probably injure himself again. Nobody ever said you cant hurt yourself in a Smith if your totally stupid about it. They are not idiot proof, but neither is a lot of other items in a gym! In the mean time I'm not about to sell mine and will continue to use it several times a week. Your trying to argue something that doesn't need to be and wasn't even the intent of the original post! If you don't like the smith machine.... its real easy don't use it, end of story!

[animalfan]

I will first say that I generally train for strength. That said, I disagree that the best bar path during a bench press is straight up and down. I generally touch the bar just lower than my pecs and finish with it over my face.

I know that benching in the Smith (and most other machines for that matter) bothers my shoulders and elbows, so I don't do it. I just can't seem to find the best set up to do it without causing myself pain. I'm actually a little stronger benching in the Smith but it's not worth it to me. I have the same problem with squatting in one- to do it on a regular basis, I have to set up with my feet really far forward.

I think a Smith machine is a decent machine, and if I had the space to play with and found a good deal on a good machine, I'd probably buy one for some variety.

[ironwill2008]

So, how about the activation of stabilising muscles in free weight exercises VS Smith machine?

"Stabilizer" muscles are of little concern to bodybuilders. In fact, the ability to negate their involvement in many exercises done on machines allows more load to be placed on the target muscle(s).

Any small contributor that might not get worked during a machine exercise will be properly worked, directly, with other exercises in the routine. That's part and parcel to basic bodybuilding philosophy--put the work as precisely as possible where it's required, rather than spread it all over where it isn't.


I won't request that you point out these 'stabilizer' muscles to me on an anatomy chart.

[sherman]

You're obviously not a bodybuilder.

I didn't mean the whole forum, I was just talking about this "workout equipment" category. You won't find much Rippletoe criticism here.

You are right about me not being a bodybuilder. More like a body salvager.

[Jetigen]

....I don't use it for anything other than shrugs and weighted calf raises (which it's great for, IMO).

+Donkey Calf Raises



http://www.gymprofessor.com/exercise...lf-raises.html

[MeatFalafel]

"Stabilizer" muscles are of little concern to bodybuilders. In fact, the ability to negate their involvement in many exercises done on machines allows more load to be placed on the target muscle(s).

If this is the case, then do you use the Smith for deadlifts to isolate the lower back?

[MeatFalafel]

Your trying to argue something that doesn't need to be and wasn't even the intent of the original post!

I was just wondering what everyone else thinks about the terrible Smith Machine...

Your argument would appear to be invalid..

[thedickus]

You're obviously not a bodybuilder.

Hell, I don't even think Sherman lifts weights.

So what is bodybuilding, 1000+ single joint isolation exercises? Sounds more like a bodyrefinement to me not a "building". Progressive poundage core exercises is what adds muscles, isn't that what Rip teaches us. As well as Stuart McRobert, Pavel Tsatsouline, Bill Star, Reg Park...
If they don't know nothing about bodybuilding, who does, "Muscle Magazine"?

LOL, and everything started as an innocent smith machine thread.

Rip and other strength or powerlifting coaches teach strength with size being a byproduct. Bodybuilders train for size with strength being a byproduct.
BTW there's no such thing around here as an innocent smith machine thread.

I will first say that I generally train for strength. That said, I disagree that the best bar path during a bench press is straight up and down. I generally touch the bar just lower than my pecs and finish with it over my face.

You use that bar path because it gives you a mechanical advantage to lift heavier weights, just like those ridiculously over exaggerated back arches you see powerlifters using. Anything to shorten the distance the bar travels. I've seen powerlifters touch the bar to mid stomach with so much back arch you could fit a football or bigger on the bench pad between their butt and shoulder blades. It obviously works for powerlifting. Bodybuilders need a happy medium where their form still stresses the pecs as much as possibly while allowing them to use enough weight to allow for hypertrophy.

"Stabilizer" muscles are of little concern to bodybuilders. In fact, the ability to negate their involvement in many exercises done on machines allows more load to be placed on the target muscle(s).

Any small contributor that might not get worked during a machine exercise will be properly worked, directly, with other exercises in the routine. That's part and parcel to basic bodybuilding philosophy--put the work as precisely as possible where it's required, rather than spread it all over where it isn't.


I won't request that you point out these 'stabilizer' muscles to me on an anatomy chart.

Yep, I've never seen a trophy for Best Stabilizers awarded at any bodybuilding show.

I didn't mean the whole forum, I was just talking about this "workout equipment" category. You won't find much Rippletoe criticism here.

You are right about me not being a bodybuilder. More like a body salvager.

Rippetoe lost a lot of credibility when he became a spokesperson for CrossFit.

If this is the case, then do you use the Smith for deadlifts to isolate the lower back?

I've seen people deadlift in a smith machine. I've never tried it myself. But for a deadlift to isolate the lower back you'd be doing 3/4 reps where you're starting the pull from about mid shin to try to minimize glute and ham involvement. So I guess I could see doing that in a smith. I might give it a go some time.

[ironwill2008]

You are right about me not being a bodybuilder. More like a body salvager.

I wasn't trying to be a dick with my 'not a bodybuilder' comment, but rather point out that bodybuilding training and strength training are as different as night and day, and that opinions on training protocols for each of those disciplines are going to be equally different.


Would I recommend, say, Squatting on a Smith for a powerlifter? Absolutely not, since the goal of that discipline is far different from a bodybuilder's use of leg training.

Would I recommend Squatting on a Smith for a bodybuilder? Possibly, depending on the individuals specific needs, as far as quad development were concerned.







For myself, along with a few other experienced bodybuilders, a couple of whom log long-running journals on this site, I've found that the most quad-specific leg exercise I've ever used is Front Squats done on a Smith machine. Not only can I eliminate the bar-balance issues that detract from my ability to lift max weight, but the bigger advantage is that I can place my feet far out in front of my COG, (something that's physically impossible to do with a free bar), thus allowing me to shift at least some of the emphasis down around my knees, if I so desire.





Here's the deal, as far as concerning every piece of equipment to be found in a well-equipped gym--

Everything in there has a specific purpose, just as every tool in a well-equipped tool box has a specific purpose. Use the right tool for the job.

If this is the case, then do you use the Smith for deadlifts to isolate the lower back?

The lower back can't really be 'isolated.' The most direct way to work that part of the body would be with a GHR bench or a Hyperextension bench.


Again, use the right tool for the job.

[GRAYPANTHER]

How about a combo. Free weight squats to start then switch over to smith machine squats to push beyond?

[ironwill2008]

How about a combo. Free weight squats to start then switch over to smith machine squats to push beyond?

Although you can push equally hard in complete safety inside a properly set-up power rack, using the advantages of both free weight and machines has always been the bedrock training method of choice for virtually every bodybuilder who ever set foot in a gym.

IMO, the bigger advantage of machine work (of any kind, not just the Smith) for bodybuilders is in the ability to shift the work, at least slightly more, to any potential specific lagging area(s).

[donforeman]

And claiming that something has worked for you and disregarding evidence against a said method doesn't mean that it's correct. Its like claiming smoking hasn't killed you after 40 years so it carries no danger. So, how about the activation of stabilising muscles in free weight exercises VS Smith machine?

I'm sorry, but seriously this is backward! Every exercise has some risk and just not using a Smith machine will not keep a person that doesn't listen to their body safe. You can hurt yourself in a Power rack just as fast if your stupid! I know! The original poster was blaming the smith for his injury when in all likely hood he only injured himself while using a smith machine and if he continues training n the same manner on other gym equipment - he will probably injure himself again. Nobody ever said you cant hurt yourself in a Smith if your totally stupid about it. They are not idiot proof, but neither is a lot of other items in a gym! In the mean time I'm not about to sell mine and will continue to use it several times a week. Your trying to argue something that doesn't need to be and wasn't even the intent of the original post! If you don't like the smith machine.... its real easy don't use it, end of story!

Your argument would appear to be invalid..

Of course! How stupid of me to think you would understand my post when you obviously didn't understand the others.

[Cleveland33]

Rippetoe lost a lot of credibility when he became a spokesperson for CrossFit.

He is no longer affiliated with them.

A large part of his affiliation with Xfit was that he believed it was helping undo the damage done by Arthur Jones

[twodog]

Rippetoe lost a lot of credibility when he became a spokesperson for CrossFit.

He is no longer affiliated with them.

A large part of his affiliation with Xfit was that he believed it was helping undo the damage done by Arthur Jones

If Rippetoe lost credit because he once supported Crossfit, then every bodybuilder that has ever been in an advertisement for a cr*ppy product ( I figure that this includes almost every decent bodybuilder ever ) should lose credit.

[muscleman353]

I did Smith Machine bench presses the other day, and it felt highly unnatural, but I didn't have a spotter, so I didn't want to risk using the barbell bench press. In the barbell bench press, it feels much better. To me, the shoulder is not made to go straight up and down which the Smith Machine limits you to. I hate it so much and will NEVER use it again. My shoulder is in so much pain today, and I was just wondering what everyone else thinks about the terrible Smith Machine...

thats sad
i injured myself (shoulder) because of pressing behind the neck once
i couldnt sleep the whole night
thee shoulder pain gets down to your arms and its like argh...
iknowthatfeelingbrah.jpg














(dont use that chit again i used it only for calf raises)

[muscleman353]

Although you can push equally hard in complete safety inside a properly set-up power rack, using the advantages of both free weight and machines has always been the bedrock training method of choice for virtually every bodybuilder who ever set foot in a gym.

IMO, the bigger advantage of machine work (of any kind, not just the Smith) for bodybuilders is in the ability to shift the work, at least slightly more, to any potential specific lagging area(s).

this^
also consider that freeweights stress the joints around the muscles more and activate the cns more
thats good because it allows to build strength faster unless you are injured or something
so yes machine work is not complete garbage but if you are young(injury free) and new to the game definately free weights first!

































i like the standing calf machine and the calf machine press i just love them

[MeatFalafel]

Of course! How stupid of me to think you would understand my post when you obviously didn't understand the others.

You just totally used my quote out of context. Ironwill is giving a solid debate and I daresay teaching me a thing or two, you're giving me an aggro slanging match. He is credible, you sir are not. Please don't contribute unless its useful.

[MeatFalafel]

I wasn't trying to be a dick with my 'not a bodybuilder' comment, but rather point out that bodybuilding training and strength training are as different as night and day, and that opinions on training protocols for each of those disciplines are going to be equally different.


Would I recommend, say, Squatting on a Smith for a powerlifter? Absolutely not, since the goal of that discipline is far different from a bodybuilder's use of leg training.

Would I recommend Squatting on a Smith for a bodybuilder? Possibly, depending on the individuals specific needs, as far as quad development were concerned.







For myself, along with a few other experienced bodybuilders, a couple of whom log long-running journals on this site, I've found that the most quad-specific leg exercise I've ever used is Front Squats done on a Smith machine. Not only can I eliminate the bar-balance issues that detract from my ability to lift max weight, but the bigger advantage is that I can place my feet far out in front of my COG, (something that's physically impossible to do with a free bar), thus allowing me to shift at least some of the emphasis down around my knees, if I so desire.





Here's the deal, as far as concerning every piece of equipment to be found in a well-equipped gym--

Everything in there has a specific purpose, just as every tool in a well-equipped tool box has a specific purpose. Use the right tool for the job.















The lower back can't really be 'isolated.' The most direct way to work that part of the body would be with a GHR bench or a Hyperextension bench.


Again, use the right tool for the job.

Do you see my point with the ROM issues where the smith is concerned though when i put it in that context? I do see your point and you clearly don't shy from heavy freeweight compounds judging by your bodyspace!