Intermediate/Advanced Routine

[davo26]

I strongly agree with jedema on the whole recomping thing. I tried a "mini-cut" if you will for 2 weeks and my energy to workout was just gone. Even at 30 reps I saw no progress, and I got weaker in some lifts mainly the pull day (D2). With recomp I saw no decrease in energy and my strength kept increasing..so yeah.

thats interesting chaps, thanks a lot. jedema, youre certainly spot on with having to lose what ive just put on first, thats a given. thatll be fat, and needs to go. once i get down to 161 again tho, like you say, itll have to be a choice between staying that weight or going to 158 as kelei recommended. im heartened to read that you see decent strength increases on recomp, i did wonder whether id just be 'treading water' really doing that. so.....thats tempting to do, but then again as you say, itll be quicker carrying on the cut, then slooow bulk. still not decided what to do, but hey, first things first, lets get back to 161 and then have a decision to make eh? :-D

[ThatOneLurker]

I'm recomping and my strength progress is fine.

Ran a 3 day overreach for bench before my deload (it was really just a spur of the moment thing) and got 5lbs stronger lol

Monday I start again and I'll be doing a bench overreach for 3 weeks until I deload again.


Really hoping to put on 20lbs on my bench.

[64509chvl]

I'm recomping and my strength progress is fine.

Ran a 3 day overreach for bench before my deload (it was really just a spur of the moment thing) and got 5lbs stronger lol

Monday I start again and I'll be doing a bench overreach for 3 weeks until I deload again.


Really hoping to put on 20lbs on my bench.

Good luck on the over reach...I had good luck with mine. U gonna do flat & incline, or just flat?

[ThatOneLurker]

just flat, I do incline with DB's so.. Yeah it's going to be pretty annoying. I suspect flat BB has a better carryover to incline DB as opposed to the other way around.

but I'm only doing it at 30 reps per day since I'm running this program with increased variety I've dropped my total reps down to 30 as I'm using more exercises than before to target my bodyparts.

[64509chvl]

Yeah I'd imagine so...

Interesting on the additional exercises vs. reps! What does your D1 look like @ 30 reps?

[ThatOneLurker]

Yeah I'd imagine so...

Interesting on the additional exercises vs. reps! What does your D1 look like @ 30 reps?

Flat BB bench
Incline DB bench
DB flyes
Cable flyes (set at a 15 degree angle to emphasize clavicular head)
Rope Pressdowns
DB Side Lateral Raises
OH Tricep extensions with DB's or tricep kickbacks, depends on how my elbow tendon feels
wide grip upright rows
barbell shrugs
Dips


In that order

[64509chvl]

Looks good dude! Been at that a while now or is this something new?

[ThatOneLurker]

Looks good dude! Been at that a while now or is this something new?

Been at it for a month and a half now. I'm liking it more.


The volume is comparable to running the original set up at 40 reps more or less so it's treating my joints a bit better. Some bodyparts have gotten an increase in volume (quads, and biceps most notably) and others have dropped a bit (chest)

but the increased variety has been training more motor units per muscle group so I've noticed slightly faster results.


I think at some point I'll go back to the original set up or tweak it to fit my needs with the same principles found throughout this program but for now this is treating me good.

[64509chvl]

Good stuff dude...kill the over reach! I miss the 3 week continuous pump I got from that !

[adamxbomb]

What happened bro?

This deployment is kicking my ass, all the flights and pressure changes finially got the best of my ears.

[squall325]

If you're going to be on a cut, it's recommended to go for 30 total reps per exercise.

As for switching out exercises, if you really want to stay away from front squats, go with hack squats. The purpose of this exercise is to really target your quads, which is why back squats aren't being used.

Similarly, the Romanian deadlifts are intended to really focus on hitting your hamstrings. Regular deadlifts are going to target many additional muscle fibers. While this may sound good, this program is really designed to evenly distribute the work load across the intended muscle groups, so switching this exercise has the possibility of creating an imbalance.

Kelei has offered up Hyperextensions (or reverse hypers) as a good alternative to Romanian deadlifts in the past, and if you don't have a hack squat, Kelei has also said Leg Press can be substituted for Front Squats, though he feels they are not as effective.

Why 30? I'll be in and out of the gym in a really short time performing 5 exercises with 30 reps each. Also decided on retaining both front squat and RDL. Just have to practice the mechanics of it first and left lighter than my back squat and DL. Also, is it okay to add shrugs on D2 to further focus on the trapz? My cut starts tomorrow, gonna do cardio for an hr when I wake up then workout in the afternoon then 5-10 lap hill climb after. Maybe some basketball during the evenings. It looks really heavy (even for me) so I'll see if I can maintain this routine. If not, I'll probably remove the hill climb and just do cardio-weights-sports daily.

[davo26]

Similarly, the Romanian deadlifts are intended to really focus on hitting your hamstrings. Regular deadlifts are going to target many additional muscle fibers. While this may sound good, this program is really designed to evenly distribute the work load across the intended muscle groups, so switching this exercise has the possibility of creating an imbalance.

Kelei has offered up Hyperextensions (or reverse hypers) as a good alternative to Romanian deadlifts in the past, and if you don't have a hack squat, Kelei has also said Leg Press can be substituted for Front Squats, though he feels they are not as effective.

just throwing this out there, been googling ham exercises, and as stated, kelei recommends hypers or reverse hypers if you need to replace RDL. i also found some vids for glute ham raise. out of interest, do any of you do any of these instead of RDL? and if so which would be the best 'swap'? always interested in trying new exercises that i may be able to perform better, and id like to try them, but havent the equipment so ive been looking to see which can be done 'ghetto' at home without the proper equipment. drawn a blank so far :-)

[wgbjeff]

Why 30? I'll be in and out of the gym in a really short time performing 5 exercises with 30 reps each. Also decided on retaining both front squat and RDL. Just have to practice the mechanics of it first and left lighter than my back squat and DL. Also, is it okay to add shrugs on D2 to further focus on the trapz? My cut starts tomorrow, gonna do cardio for an hr when I wake up then workout in the afternoon then 5-10 lap hill climb after. Maybe some basketball during the evenings. It looks really heavy (even for me) so I'll see if I can maintain this routine. If not, I'll probably remove the hill climb and just do cardio-weights-sports daily.

Doing this routine with an hour of cardio everyday and hill climbs will drain your glycogen really fast. If you do plan on doing this, I suggest keeping it to 30 reps and eating more complex carbohydrates (you're on a cut so get as many carbs as you can). You can do the 3day/week set up too make it easier on your body, too. You can also deload earlier.

At the end of the day, though, you know your own body. Just make sure you listen to it when it tells you it's been too much. Good luck with your cut

Edit: Yes, you can add shrugs

[Jherewhoisdere]

Hey so I've used this for 2 weeks now, 6 days a week, feels pretty good.
Doing 50 reps even though I eat below maintenance at the moment, still doing great.
Just wondering if there has been any good additions or changes to the program from what it is at page 1?
Thanks :P

[64509chvl]

Hey so I've used this for 2 weeks now, 6 days a week, feels pretty good.
Doing 50 reps even though I eat below maintenance at the moment, still doing great.
Just wondering if there has been any good additions or changes to the program from what it is at page 1?
Thanks :P

There has been a couple variations but mainly just different exercise options for the accessories. Basically run it as is on page 1 for 3 weeks, do a 1 week deload & repeat. If any exercise is causing joint pain consistently, then try a diferent exercise that doesn't bother u. Just start reading the thread...tons of valuable info in here!

[adamxbomb]

There has been a couple variations but mainly just different exercise options for the accessories. Basically run it as is on page 1 for 3 weeks, do a 1 week deload & repeat. If any exercise is causing joint pain consistently, then try a diferent exercise that doesn't bother u. Just start reading the thread...tons of valuable info in here!

what he said.

[gingersgym]

Been on page 1 routine for 9 Months now... (2 months into my cut)

reps have gone down to 35 to allow for recovery... Strength has stayed roughly the same and down 11lbs.

Wondering when i next bulk i think ill add one or two accessories (extra back exc + shrugs) but apart from that still loving it!

Wont add the accessories on my cut because, well why would you.

[sepandee]

Why 30? I'll be in and out of the gym in a really short time performing 5 exercises with 30 reps each. Also decided on retaining both front squat and RDL. Just have to practice the mechanics of it first and left lighter than my back squat and DL. Also, is it okay to add shrugs on D2 to further focus on the trapz? My cut starts tomorrow, gonna do cardio for an hr when I wake up then workout in the afternoon then 5-10 lap hill climb after. Maybe some basketball during the evenings. It looks really heavy (even for me) so I'll see if I can maintain this routine. If not, I'll probably remove the hill climb and just do cardio-weights-sports daily.

Can you post your stats and numbers? Just curious to find out how much you can lift.

[Morfedemu]

Ok, so I just finished up the first day of the workout. I did it exactly as it was written on page one and I have a few questions/concerns.

1. My upperback is my most developed muscle and I feel like if I do this routine as written, it will get set back. At the very least I'd like to add shrugs into this but I am not sure what day to add them onto.

2. I noticed today that my to pecs are a bit unbalanced and so are my triceps. Could I switch out the Bench press for Alternating DB presses until my chest evens out? (i think the single Over head tris will balance my triceps out eventually)

3. I'm not all that good with front squats but I'm more than capable with normal squats and back squats. So I was thinking would it be okay to switch out the front squats for normal squats? I'm aware that this adds more stress on my hamstrings so I would also cut my RDL and Leg Curls down from 50 reps to 40 reps to compensate. Or I could just switch out the front squats with back squats (barbell hack squats).

4. I'd like to add a small forearm workout onto the end of one of these. Do you think it's necessary (my forearms are lacking) or will this routine take care of my forearms?

[jedema]

Ok, so I just finished up the first day of the workout. I did it exactly as it was written on page one and I have a few questions/concerns.

1. My upperback is my most developed muscle and I feel like if I do this routine as written, it will get set back. At the very least I'd like to add shrugs into this but I am not sure what day to add them onto.

Shrugs go on D1

2. I noticed today that my to pecs are a bit unbalanced and so are my triceps. Could I switch out the Bench press for Alternating DB presses until my chest evens out? (i think the single Over head tris will balance my triceps out eventually)

alternating DB press? You can use regular DB press, but to do them alternating your going to end up not using enough weight. Use get ulnar db's but only do as many as your weak side

3. I'm not all that good with front squats but I'm more than capable with normal squats and back squats. So I was thinking would it be okay to switch out the front squats for normal squats? I'm aware that this adds more stress on my hamstrings so I would also cut my RDL and Leg Curls down from 50 reps to 40 reps to compensate. Or I could just switch out the front squats with back squats (barbell hack squats).

Hack squats are the first sub recommendation. But most people are just being little sissy pants when it comes to changing up their squats....

4. I'd like to add a small forearm workout onto the end of one of these. Do you think it's necessary (my forearms are lacking) or will this routine take care of my forearms?

waste of time

[Morfedemu]

Shrugs go on D1


alternating DB press? You can use regular DB press, but to do them alternating your going to end up not using enough weight. Use get ulnar db's but only do as many as your weak side

Hack squats are the first sub recommendation. But most people are just being little sissy pants when it comes to changing up their squats....


waste of time

Thank you. I don't mind doing front squats but I feel like it's going to take me a long time to get used to them and master them. I'm already putting enough stress on my body with this new routine, I'd like to not have to master another exercise on top of that. Maybe after the first deload I'll add them in, once my body has become accustomed to the new routine.

[roberto487]

Doing this routine with an hour of cardio everyday and hill climbs will drain your glycogen really fast. If you do plan on doing this, I suggest keeping it to 30 reps and eating more complex carbohydrates (you're on a cut so get as many carbs as you can). You can do the 3day/week set up too make it easier on your body, too. You can also deload earlier.

At the end of the day, though, you know your own body. Just make sure you listen to it when it tells you it's been too much. Good luck with your cut

Edit: Yes, you can add shrugs

didn't kelei recommended doing shrugs on D1?

[64509chvl]

didn't kelei recommended doing shrugs on D1?

Yes.

[wgbjeff]

Ok, so I just finished up the first day of the workout. I did it exactly as it was written on page one and I have a few questions/concerns.

1. My upperback is my most developed muscle and I feel like if I do this routine as written, it will get set back. At the very least I'd like to add shrugs into this but I am not sure what day to add them onto.

2. I noticed today that my to pecs are a bit unbalanced and so are my triceps. Could I switch out the Bench press for Alternating DB presses until my chest evens out? (i think the single Over head tris will balance my triceps out eventually)

3. I'm not all that good with front squats but I'm more than capable with normal squats and back squats. So I was thinking would it be okay to switch out the front squats for normal squats? I'm aware that this adds more stress on my hamstrings so I would also cut my RDL and Leg Curls down from 50 reps to 40 reps to compensate. Or I could just switch out the front squats with back squats (barbell hack squats).

4. I'd like to add a small forearm workout onto the end of one of these. Do you think it's necessary (my forearms are lacking) or will this routine take care of my forearms?

1. If your upper back is the most developed, you shouldn't be adding exercises to keep it "most developed". If you leave everything the way it is other bodyparts will have a chance to catch up. But then again, it's up to you, and if you feel like you need shrugs then add them on D1.

2. Keep the routine as it is. Uneven muscles will balance out eventually. If your chest is lagging, you can add in flyes no big deal.

3. Substitute hack squats but spend an extra 20 minutes in the gym every D3 practicing your front squat form. Once you have it mastered you can do front squats.

4. Forearms get worked plenty through deadlifts and all the pullups/chinups in this routine. If you still feel like you need to isolate them then forearm work goes at the end of D2.

[lrd3]

but but but tomorrow is chins and curls... my arms are going to disappear if they get any smaller
im just going to play it by ear..... if i feel anything like i do today = i'm taking my first day off

well i took 2 full days off. the first day i was in bed nearly all day. maybe 6 hrs total out of bed.... didn't even think about weights
the next day i was definitely feeling better. but no were close to were i needed to be. i was doing good with appetite but head felt like it would pop. i did some stretching and mobility work just so i wouldn't feel lazy.
yesterday i tried a full day. chins an pulls to 50 the rest fell at 35. my problem was as my PUMP got more intense so did my sinus and head ache pressure... i'm going in on legs again today. if i have to i will keep it easy like yesterday...

[wgbjeff]

well i took 2 full days off. the first day i was in bed nearly all day. maybe 6 hrs total out of bed.... didn't even think about weights
the next day i was definitely feeling better. but no were close to were i needed to be. i was doing good with appetite but head felt like it would pop. i did some stretching and mobility work just so i wouldn't feel lazy.
yesterday i tried a full day. chins an pulls to 50 the rest fell at 35. my problem was as my PUMP got more intense so did my sinus and head ache pressure... i'm going in on legs again today. if i have to i will keep it easy like yesterday...

Your lifts will drop for half a week but will be back up in no time. I was out for just under 2 weeks because of the chicken pox earlier this month and now my strength is back (and stronger) than before. It took 4 days to get back to normal.

And don't forget to eat

[sepandee]

Quick question: if you're doing D1 and D2 in one day, what's the order of the exercises? Do you complete D1 then move on to D2? Or do I mix them up--say, like this: Bench, Incline Bench, Chin ups, Pull ups, Seated Rows, Rope pressdown, overhead DB extension, DB side laterals, rear delt fly (I like to do these seated), and preacher curls?

[jedema]

Quick question: if you're doing D1 and D2 in one day, what's the order of the exercises? Do you complete D1 then move on to D2? Or do I mix them up--say, like this: Bench, Incline Bench, Chin ups, Pull ups, Seated Rows, Rope pressdown, overhead DB extension, DB side laterals, rear delt fly (I like to do these seated), and preacher curls?

you always want to get the compounds done first. Looks like you have it layed out well.

[sepandee]

you always want to get the compounds done first. Looks like you have it layed out well.

Thanks. Can someone comment on the bar type and grip variation for doing a seated row on this program?

[ThatOneLurker]

Kelei had suggested something more of a wide grip to target the back better.


I personally do them the way Arnold did in Pumping Iron with a similar handle.