Intermediate/Advanced Routine

[TurboRyan]

I been using this route for 6 months so far and somehow my calfs starting hurt everytime when I run and took couple days off and it still hurts so I'm gonna take break with leg day for week but I'm acddect to gym. Would hurt my gains if I do everyday with D1 and D2. I have quick recovery.

[Kelei]

Bump since I edited while you were probably replying to it

If you feel as though 50 reps is too much volume you can always reduce your reps to 40 or even 30.

[PZR]

I've read up to page 31 so far and I've got to say, this thread is awesome! I've been stuck in a rut the last few months not making much progress and it has been unmotivating so I decided to switch things up and look for a program and this one stuck out to me the most. I've completed the first 3 days of the workout and feel pretty annihilated, you guys are right though this style of lifting is addictive, I can't wait to see some progress! Thanks Kelei, reps for you man!

[ThatOneLurker]

Not really, it'll increase your flye progress though lol. There'll be some carryover but not much. Increasing your flye strength is still a great way to make your chest grow bigger so who really cares if it doesn't help your bench press much? If you want to increase your rate of bench progress you should bench with more volume instead.

Haha true. Excited to add to my D1 workout.


Do they add mass to the inner chest? or do they just hit the same area that flat bench already stimulates?

Always been curious about that and there's never a straight answer to this.

[Kelei]

Do they add mass to the inner chest? or do they just hit the same area that flat bench already stimulates?

Always been curious about that and there's never a straight answer to this.

You can't target your inner chest. In order for your inner chest to stand out you need to reach a certain level of overall pec size. The inner part of the pecs is always the last to fill in.

A bit of variety is always good, even though different exercises may train the same muscle it's important to remember that they may train different motor units within the same muscle. For example let's say the sternal head of your pecs has 100 motor units and that bench press trains motor units 1-80 while flyes train motor units 60-100.

On paper and according to EMG tests most people would assume that bench press is a more effective exercise because it recruits more motor units but this doesn't mean that flyes are a waste of time, even though they recruit less motor units it's important to keep in mind that they trained motor units 81-100 while bench press did not.

So using a large variety of exercises is optimal for hypertrophy because it ensures that more motor units are trained and it also provides different recruitment patterns which is just as important.

If I ever decided that I wanted to compete I'd take things more seriously and add much more variety (in terms of exercise selection), for example instead of performing 2 exercises per body with 100 reps per exercise I'd instead use 5 exercises with 40 reps each etc. Get what I mean?

[ThatOneLurker]

You can't target your inner chest. In order for your inner chest to stand out you need to reach a certain level of overall pec size. The inner part of the pecs is always the last to fill in.

A bit of variety is always good, even though different exercises may train the same muscle it's important to remember that they may train different motor units within the same muscle. For example let's say the sternal head of your pecs has 100 motor units and that bench press trains motor units 1-80 while flyes train motor units 60-100.

On paper and according to EMG tests most people would assume that bench press is a more effective exercise because it recruits more motor units but this doesn't mean that flyes are a waste of time, even though they recruit less motor units it's important to keep in mind that they trained motor units 81-100 while bench press did not.

So using a large variety of exercises is optimal for hypertrophy because it ensures that more motor units are trained and it also provides different recruitment patterns which is just as important.

If I ever decided that I wanted to compete I'd take things more seriously and add much more variety (in terms of exercise selection), for example instead of performing 2 exercises per body with 100 reps per exercise I'd instead use 5 exercises with 40 reps each etc. Get what I mean?

Yeah I understand.

Thank you.

[Chicago1287]

Stretch your pecs and lats, these are the primary internal rotators, you also need to strengthen your external rotators by performing external rotations. Avoid any exercises which bother your shoulder, try a barbell, try dumbbells, try a chest press machine, try everything.

Also focus extra hard on chest-supported rows, make sure you squeeze your shoulder blades together in the fully contracted position, this exercise keeps your shoulders healthy and helps to maintain proper posture.

I'll do that. One more thing I forgot to mention....my traps usually hurt pretty bad when I have shoulder pain. Obviously they're connected to my delts so I'm not surprised but is there something I should be doing to help them as well? Generally, my traps are always tight and sore even when I haven't worked out in a while.

[Oyster210]

Haha true. Excited to add to my D1 workout.


Do they add mass to the inner chest? or do they just hit the same area that flat bench already stimulates?

Always been curious about that and there's never a straight answer to this.

I've been doing them for like 6 months with good results! (and no benching).

However, I do do weighted push ups. I was wondering if you guys could help me here:

A regular push up is around 70% body weight average (right?). Adding weight, assuming you rest it at the top of your back...let's say it's 75% of the added weight too (guess, I'd need some scales or do some maths to find out).

So, a weighted push up for me (75kg) with 20kg of weight should be, 67.5 kg (based on rough estimations).

So my question is, what's the difference between me doing a weighted push up with 20kg, and me benching 67.5kg? Is it just ROM?


EDIT: Holy crap, I just managed some body weight dips! I know I know, hold the fireworks, but that's quite an achievement. A month ago I tried these, and my upper body basically exploded as I hit the floor. But now, boom, easy.

My only query is - after I finish a set (and after ever rest-pause sub-set), I get a wave of intense pain across my shoulders, upper pec and tris. I mean intense! Like ow, ****. But it's just for about a second. Thoughts?

I have another query (so I guess I lied) - are standard dips (normal body weight) more tri or chest? or does it depend on form etc.? There's a lot of conflicting info about this on these forums.

[joserh]

Good morning folks.

I have another question for you Kelei... I notice my forearms are really small, that's something I've always wanted to change. Do you think I should include some forearms exercise in this routine? If so... what is the best day? D2?

Thanks again.

[ALBoldt]

Good morning folks.

I have another question for you Kelei... I notice my forearms are really small, that's something I've always wanted to change. Do you think I should include some forearms exercise in this routine? If so... what is the best day? D2?

Thanks again.

Have your forearms grown any on this routine? I get a pretty good forearm pump going just about every day with this, especially D3.

[Oyster210]

Have your forearms grown any on this routine? I get a pretty good forearm pump going just about every day with this, especially D3.

Yeah, pull ups and chin ups are the things that destroy my forearms on this.

[ProgressIsGood]

It's the middle of my deload now and I tried today doing some pullups (I do them before chinups) and dam they felt quite easier. I think I improved already by at least a rep if not two and I still have quite a lot of time to rest until my next back workout, seems like all the high effort hundred reps of pull ups I completed didn't go to waste. I never improved in pullups by a whole 1 rep in less than a month except when I just started.

By the way Kelei, I did some bench press today with my working weight and it seems like my strength is more or less back to where I started. 155lbsX9. Is it reasonable to expect to be able to do at least 155lbsX11 already by next tuesday?

[thenewbeau]

anybody logging their workout with good progress? if you've made 100 changes then I don't care to read it. That completely defeats the purpose. otherwise, I'm interested to see the kinda gains people have made with this routine.

[lajoo]

anybody logging their workout with good progress? if you've made 100 changes then I don't care to read it. That completely defeats the purpose. otherwise, I'm interested to see the kinda gains people have made with this routine.

Drop the attitude, check my log.

[AD1984]

So using a large variety of exercises is optimal for hypertrophy because it ensures that more motor units are trained and it also provides different recruitment patterns which is just as important.

If I ever decided that I wanted to compete I'd take things more seriously and add much more variety (in terms of exercise selection), for example instead of performing 2 exercises per body with 100 reps per exercise I'd instead use 5 exercises with 40 reps each etc. Get what I mean?

Interesting.

Good morning folks.

I have another question for you Kelei... I notice my forearms are really small, that's something I've always wanted to change. Do you think I should include some forearms exercise in this routine? If so... what is the best day? D2?

Thanks again.

The pull-ups and chin-ups alone will hit your forearms very well, nevermind all pulling and the RDLs.

Drop the attitude, check my log.

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to lajoo again.

[ThatOneLurker]

I added 2 quick sets of farmer's walk yesterday on my D2 session for a little burnout..


Fun stuff.

[Kelei]

I'll do that. One more thing I forgot to mention....my traps usually hurt pretty bad when I have shoulder pain. Obviously they're connected to my delts so I'm not surprised but is there something I should be doing to help them as well? Generally, my traps are always tight and sore even when I haven't worked out in a while.

Your mid/lower traps are weak compared to your upper traps, this can upset your shoulder health. Chest-supported rows will help correct this.

I've been doing them for like 6 months with good results! (and no benching).

However, I do do weighted push ups. I was wondering if you guys could help me here:

A regular push up is around 70% body weight average (right?). Adding weight, assuming you rest it at the top of your back...let's say it's 75% of the added weight too (guess, I'd need some scales or do some maths to find out).

So, a weighted push up for me (75kg) with 20kg of weight should be, 67.5 kg (based on rough estimations).

So my question is, what's the difference between me doing a weighted push up with 20kg, and me benching 67.5kg? Is it just ROM?


EDIT: Holy crap, I just managed some body weight dips! I know I know, hold the fireworks, but that's quite an achievement. A month ago I tried these, and my upper body basically exploded as I hit the floor. But now, boom, easy.

My only query is - after I finish a set (and after ever rest-pause sub-set), I get a wave of intense pain across my shoulders, upper pec and tris. I mean intense! Like ow, ****. But it's just for about a second. Thoughts?

I have another query (so I guess I lied) - are standard dips (normal body weight) more tri or chest? or does it depend on form etc.? There's a lot of conflicting info about this on these forums.

Weighted push-ups are a great alternative to bench press. With dips if you remain upright it'll emphasize your triceps, if you lean forward you'll emphasize your chest. Make sure your hands are directly under your shoulders, stay away from wide grip dips, they're notorious for wrecking shoulders. If the pain you experiene during dips is only temporary I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Good morning folks.

I have another question for you Kelei... I notice my forearms are really small, that's something I've always wanted to change. Do you think I should include some forearms exercise in this routine? If so... what is the best day? D2?

Thanks again.

I don't think direct forearm work is necessary although if you insist on adding someI suggest adding it to D2.

By the way Kelei, I did some bench press today with my working weight and it seems like my strength is more or less back to where I started. 155lbsX9. Is it reasonable to expect to be able to do at least 155lbsX11 already by next tuesday?

I'd only be guessing, just wait and see.

[jneves86]

Can this routine be used as a 3 day "split" routine, as opposed to the 6 you've listed?

[Kelei]

Can this routine be used as a 3 day "split" routine, as opposed to the 6 you've listed?

Yes, perhaps something like D1 on Mon, D2 on Wed and D3 on Fri.

[Chicago1287]

Your mid/lower traps are weak compared to your upper traps, this can upset your shoulder health. Chest-supported rows will help correct this.

My traps are the weirdest thing on my body...when I stand up for too long, they get sore and tight. I've never heard of anything like that happen to anyone else. I'm really hoping the rows correct that.

[ProgressIsGood]

Kelei, I have a problem I noticed with chin ups. I have been doing a lot of weighted chin ups before I got on your routine, but I always done them heavy ,6 reps at most in a set.
Now that I have to do 10+ the grip during the set gets really uncomfortable and awkward and I have to stop the set early due to wrist pain.
I haven't seen much improvement in them either.
When I did them for low reps it never was a problem though.

Can I just do 100 reps of pullups instead?

[Kelei]

Kelei, I have a problem I noticed with chin ups. I have been doing a lot of weighted chin ups before I got on your routine, but I always done them heavy ,6 reps at most in a set.
Now that I have to do 10+ the grip during the set gets really uncomfortable and awkward and I have to stop the set early due to wrist pain.
I haven't seen much improvement in them either.
When I did them for low reps it never was a problem though.

Can I just do 100 reps of pullups instead?

Is your grip shoulder width? Your forearms should be exactly perpendicular to the bar. If you can't perform chin-ups I suggest using straight arm pulldowns instead.

[thenewbeau]

Drop the attitude, check my log.

not sure how saying 100 changes defeats the purpose is attitude but ok. if you would have wasted the time I did reading 3 different logs that went nowhere you would probably feel the same. guess it's my fault for not jumping to the end and making sure they didn't quit.

[jaybkr]

Hi guys,
This thread is unreal, I've learnt more in the last few days reading through the pages of this thread, than I have on last few months on the net.

Kelei, what a top bloke u are to willingly answer everyone's questions with such detail. Your like the Dr Karl of the body building world

I consider myself to be a rank beginner. I've only been working out for the last 3 months. Trying to find a workout that suits.

I started this program on Tuesday, so far I've done D1 and D2 and I'm in a world of hurt, it seems every muscle in my upper body is aching like hell. The funny thing is I like it and can't wait till Monday for D3

As soon as I can ill start a log, can't wait to see more weight on the bar

Cheers

Jay

[jaybkr]

By the way I'm only starting with 30 45 and 60 for now,

[ProgressIsGood]

Is your grip shoulder width? Your forearms should be exactly perpendicular to the bar. If you can't perform chin-ups I suggest using straight arm pulldowns instead.

Yes my grip is shoulder width not wider not narrower.

I train at my house and don't have a cable machine, so pullups are the only option I can think of.

[Kelei]

Yes my grip is shoulder width not wider not narrower.

I train at my house and don't have a cable machine, so pullups are the only option I can think of.

Yeah, just add more pull-ups, perhaps you could also add some pullovers to provide some variety.

[ProgressIsGood]

Yeah, just add more pull-ups, perhaps you could also add some pullovers to provide some variety.

I guess I'll do 100 reps of pullups and add some pullovers anyway.

By the way, if I do the 100 rep pull-ups, should I take a break after the 50 rep mark and treat the other 50 reps as another exercise or just do rest pause with no break until I complete 100 reps?

[Kelei]

I guess I'll do 100 reps of pullups and add some pullovers anyway.

By the way, if I do the 100 rep pull-ups, should I take a break after the 50 rep mark and treat the other 50 reps as another exercise or just do rest pause with no break until I complete 100 reps?

Finish your 100 reps in one go. It'll be tough at first but after a few months you'll do it easily.

[jmmainvi]

I've been lifting for "strength" for what seems like a long time now - 3.5-4 years and while I've made progress, I'm constantly plagued by injuries and being underweight. I'm a rugby player, and I've played around with olympic weightlifting (never competed, because tall + skinny). Historically I've almost exclusively done full body workouts (SS, Texas Method, Olympic Lifting stuff, crossfit stuff, a LOT of squatting) except for a brief stint with push/pull. I've never worked out more than every other day (so 7 times in 2 weeks) and I'm a little nervous about both the HUGE increase in volume (never consistently worked with sets of more than 8 reps) and frequency.

College student coming up on a month long break, followed by the easiest semester of my life. I'll have all the time in the world to sleep and recover, about an hour and a half every day to lift, And I hope to bulk at ~1 lb/week for the forseeable future. (hope to be over 200 lbs in 12 weeks - anywhere from 180 to 190 depending on carbs and water right now) I'm not sure if I can RDL (nagging SI joint injury from a bad hit a few months back) but I shouldn't have a problem with anything else. I've done a lot of shopping around (5/3/1, strongman type training, basic bodybuilding splits, etc.) and this program out of everything intrigues me most. I'm going to try it, and i'm going to commit to doing the program for at least the next 12 weeks (spring break) possibly longer.

First workout will be 2pm today, after I hand in my last paper and take my last final. I'll read through this thread sometime tonight. Can't wait to get started.

I will probably start a log for this in the personal section of the site, as my first BB.com log, and my second consistent workout journal.