Intermediate/Advanced Routine

[64509chvl]

Good stuff sync...seems to be going pretty decent so far!

[reluded]

I have a few questions:
Can I exchange the front squat for leg press?
And are there any people here who have used this routine for bulking, with success? And what were your results?
When I was training 4 days a week I used to consume 3000 calories per day, now on this routine I increased to 3200, or should I eat more?

[ThatOneLurker]

I have a few questions:
Can I exchange the front squat for leg press?
And are there any people here who have used this routine for bulking, with success? And what were your results?
When I was training 4 days a week I used to consume 3000 calories per day, now on this routine I increased to 3200, or should I eat more?

I've substituted the leg press for front squats for the time being to let a part of my leg thigh heal.

Nothing wrong with it, and I think I remember Kelei saying he prefers front squats only because he feels that they hit the quads a little better.


As for the calories.. I don't even know.

I've been eating by feel since I started this routine and I can tell when to increase or decrease calories. Mainly just eating some of the same foods all the time so all I have to do is increase/decrease the portions.


I was around 170-175 at the start of this routine in September.

[donce2013]

had my first D1+D2+D3 today in one day (this is not a daily thing yet, I'm doing D1+D2 daily, but D3 is added only every 2nd day, and 6 days from now it will be D1/2/3 daily, seven days a week). I need to slightly change the order of the exercises with the goal of getting squats, RDL and chin ups out of the way as quickly as possible as they are the heaviest exercises - the remaining ones are pretty much relaxation time in comparison. I was close to quitting at one point today, thinking to myself that "this is too much for one day," but then I sat down and realized that it was actually only too much for the mind - the body on the other hand was just fine and capable of way more. Pushed through it and waiting to see how the next daily D1+D2+D3 will go.

Chin ups right now are being a real biatch; as I said a few posts earlier it's easily my weakest exercise. After only a few days of overreaching D1+D2 together, I can only manage 6x BW chin ups on the first set (compared to 9 when I started the overreach for the back), and after I've completed around 16 reps I need around 1,5 minutes of rest in order to perform one extra rep only (I sh*t you not). it's ok though, just takes a long time to complete.

Other than that, not much to report: feeling fine, no injuries and no unusual pain anywhere, no muscle cramps or anything. I'm pretty sure things will change though once D3 becomes a daily occurence.

da **** how long did that take to complete ? how long do you think you wil llast on this program

[AD1984]

I thought it would get better with time but it has been over a month for me and I see no improvement so far and I do some stretching every day after my workouts. I know when I was doing rear squats the stretching really help me with them to get lower but I do not have to struggle with holding the bar for rear squats.

It's fairly normal to feel it in your back as well as your legs for a front squat. A crossed grip might exacerbate that, I can't really tell since I've never used that grip. How much weight you can use is limited by your upper back for the front squat, and by your lower back for the back squat. It's also more demanding than the back squat, because if you were to lose some tightness in your upper body while doing back squats it wouldn't be the end of the world, but the moment that happens in the front squat the bar would roll forward.

Yeah I agree, the first couple times doing it in the machine, it was very un natural, but once you get your feet set in the right spot and get flexible enough to do a deep squat, it feels very good!

When I started lifting weights, I did squats with the Smith machine because that was all my gym had. Now, between a BB and a Smith, I wouldn't even dream using the Smith. It's an unnatural, fixed range of motion, it's less demanding on your core, and it doesn't help getting you used mentally to the weight. There's a certain beauty to unracking the bar, stepping back and knowing you have to move that weight all by yourself.

I'm fairly new to this site. Been doing this program for 3 weeks. I think I have a pretty good handle on everything as I read through this lengthy thread. I am doing the program EXACTLY as Kelei suggests. My questions is about the time it takes to complete the rountine. I am able to struggle through my 1st set and do 10 reps. And I have gotten fairy good at resting just long enough to get 3(sometimes 2, sometimes 4, but usually 3) reps in the following sets. But I am only resting about 20 seconds or so. I am able to finish the full workout(50 Reps) in about an hour. Most people are saying it takes and hour and a half. Should I be concerned that I am not doing something right? The day 2 workout is a little less than that because I am not up to 50 reps on the pullups and chin ups yet. Thanks for any input and thank you Kelei for all your help.

Even though you're using your true 10RM at the moment, when your 10RM max will increase in a few weeks/months, the weight itself will be heavier and more taxing. As the weight increases, you will need slightly more recovery time between heavy sets. Nothing to worry about.

[tazmanpa]

It's fairly normal to feel it in your back as well as your legs for a front squat. A crossed grip might exacerbate that, I can't really tell since I've never used that grip. How much weight you can use is limited by your upper back for the front squat, and by your lower back for the back squat. It's also more demanding than the back squat, because if you were to lose some tightness in your upper body while doing back squats it wouldn't be the end of the world, but the moment that happens in the front squat the bar would roll forward.

I feel this routine has worked my core better than anything I have done before. I don't know if it is the cobination of the front squats and romanian dead lifts or just the increased volume of the two. I feel I could increase the number of reps on my first set of dead lifts but I am drained by the end of the exercise so I am keeping it the same right now untill I feel like I am getting used to the volume a little more and I am now able to do the 50 reps day after day so I am getting used to it. I am excited to see how beating myself up this weekend and doing the deload week works for me.

[KrepE]

Well I clearly underestimated the demands of this routine LOL the first couple of workouts went well I was doing 40 reps since I'm cutting and everything was fine but man the last couple of days I've felt really tired, didn't have the desire to come here and check the thread.
I still work out all this time since the day I commited to the routine even if i don't come here and post I still workout, the only thing is that I cut down the routine to the 30 reps that Kelei recommended from the start since I'm cutting LOL I've been doing the routine only for 30 reps 2 days now and I allready feel better a lot less tired and more motivated.

[TeenMisc]

A couple of questions: What influenced the choice of the back exercises, and why chinups right before pullups, wouldn't rows between the 2 vertical pull exercises have made more sense?
Also, why the same exercises every workout, wouldn't overhead press instead of one of the chest exercises be useful every once in a while?

please respond

[litljay]

please respond

Read back through the thread. Your questions have been answered multiple times.

1. The order of exercises is irrelevant. You can put rear delt fly's between chins and pull ups if you'd like or the rows as you suggested.

2. Front delts are worked plenty with BP & Incline BP.

3. There's plenty of people running different exercises than what Kelei has laid out.

[Kelei]

Kelei can you post a preacher curl form video you think is solid?? cause when i do preacher i feel like my lower bicep is working rather than my whole bicep. :/

What you're feeling is your biceps contracting in a lengthened position. During most bicep movements the biceps are working hardest in the middle/top part of the range of motion (when your arm is quite bent), during preacher curls your biceps are working hardest in the bottom part of the ROM (where your arm is still relatively straight).

While doing legs today I've noticed my right quad is quite a bit bigger than my left. I assume it's been working harder while doing leg extensions. I have a feeling my hamstrings are in a very similar situation. I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to do single leg movements on extensions and curls until they are equal again. If not is there any other recommendations? I'll keep front squats and rdl's carrying on the same unless they could be causing the problem too.

It should sort itself out, just pay extra attention when performing your leg exercises and make sure you're pulling/pushing evenly with both legs.

[Kusie]

I don't think this has been covered yet so i'll go ahead and ask. I understand this is a hypertrophy program designed for those looking to put on size, but do you think it's appropriate for a female looking to achieve the typically desired "fit" look that most go for? I'm asking for my girlfriend who's looking for a routine to start. She's been doing Jim's Shortcut to Size for quite a while with little results (mainly due to her diet being crap i.e. not eating enough). She's eating a lot better now and I'm trying to find something for her that'll get her the results she's looking for and am wondering if maybe this will work. Here's a pic of what I think she's going for: http://bit.ly/TpP4vI and here is where she's at now: http://bbcom.me/UmKU5V

My second question is how it's possible for her to lean out? Eating too little and overworking has been the cause of her retaining that last little bit of fat that she wants to get rid of. I realize that you need calories to gain muscle so that's why I've gotten her to eat more; but once she makes the gains that she needs and then begins a cut, won't that remaining body fat still be there? Then what? Feels like she's going back to square one in trying to get rid of it. If somebody could put an end to my confusion and hopefully help out my gf, i'd appreciate it greatly!

[davo26]

Eating too little and overworking has been the cause of her retaining that last little bit of fat that she wants to get rid of.

i hope thats not the case cos ill be trying to get rid of that 'last little bit of fat' soon and ill be hoping to do it by eating less :-)

my understanding of it is, she'll need to lose whatever fat she wants to first, then build from there slowly. and thatd be from eating minus cals. youre right, if she does it the other way, builds first, that extra fat will still be there. i made that mistake too, but more extreme :-D

[loukiss]

What you're feeling is your biceps contracting in a lengthened position. During most bicep movements the biceps are working hardest in the middle/top part of the range of motion (when your arm is quite bent), during preacher curls your biceps are working hardest in the bottom part of the ROM (where your arm is still relatively straight).

ok .. any video though for the best (in your opinion) technique? many preacher curls variatios are over there.. and i need to emphasize my arms as much as possible because my torso is WAY better.. and since i do only 1 isolation exercise (as you suggest), the preacher curls, id better do them right..

[adamxbomb]

ok .. any video though for the best (in your opinion) technique? many preacher curls variatios are over there.. and i need to emphasize my arms as much as possible because my torso is WAY better.. and since i do only 1 isolation exercise (as you suggest), the preacher curls, id better do them right..

Im confused at the dificulty of this exercise, your arms fully extended are 45 degrees from your body on a platform, (the big cushiony pad thingy)grab the bar, a bit less than shoulder width ( this is personal preference for most people, kelei recommends less than shoulder width) you curl the bar towards you, contract your bicepts bringing the bar toward your chest untill you cant go any farther, "control the negative" and bring the bar back down and be careful not to hyperextend your elbow, stop just short of your full ROM to prevent this. ( do not sit the bar on the stand until you are done with you reps, ( keep biceps tight,as always, natural curvature of your spine, keep your head up, dont cheat by reaching over the pad with your whole body) not sure if I can dummy down this exercise much more, just go do it bro!

[Kelei]

ok .. any video though for the best (in your opinion) technique? many preacher curls variatios are over there.. and i need to emphasize my arms as much as possible because my torso is WAY better.. and since i do only 1 isolation exercise (as you suggest), the preacher curls, id better do them right..

Grab a barbell and grip slightly narrower than shoulder width, make sure you lower the weight under control, generally speaking the eccentric portion of your reps should take roughly twice as long as the concentric portion.

Add another bicep exercise if you want to target your biceps more, instead of performing 1 bicep exercise for 50 reps you could perform 2 bicep exercises for 30 reps each. Try hammer curls or incline dumbbell curls.

[iBeastMode207]

Noob question, but why no shrugs or mil. Presses or any trap work?

If it's already been answered forgive me, i just looked over the first page to get the routine

[senrabt02]

This makes sense. Just finished my 3rd week doing this program and I have moved up in weight on every single exercise. Not really sure if that is because I am getting stronger or if I just hadn't figured out my true starting weight yet. Either way, the workouts are getting tougher and taking a little longer.

[Kusie]

i hope thats not the case cos ill be trying to get rid of that 'last little bit of fat' soon and ill be hoping to do it by eating less :-)

my understanding of it is, she'll need to lose whatever fat she wants to first, then build from there slowly. and thatd be from eating minus cals. youre right, if she does it the other way, builds first, that extra fat will still be there. i made that mistake too, but more extreme :-D

She actually started a thread in the female section of this site trying to get some help and everybody who commented said that she'd been spinning her wheels by eating too little and working out too much on too few calories. For 4 months or so prior to that picture being taken, she'd been eating less than 1300 cals a day + weight lifting almost every day + cardio every day + soccer a couple time a week, and that last bit if fat wasn't going anywere.

Kelei do you have have anything to say in regards to this and what i posted higher up on this page? I don't want to jack this thread so the sooner somebody can clarify the less space this will take up lol

[Trollin4Tuna]

This makes sense. Just finished my 3rd week doing this program and I have moved up in weight on every single exercise. Not really sure if that is because I am getting stronger or if I just hadn't figured out my true starting weight yet. Either way, the workouts are getting tougher and taking a little longer.

I was experiencing the same thing. I think my problem was I was mostly coming from routines where I would only use 8 reps as the highest amount I would do. Mostly did 8,6,4 for my sets and with a lot more rest. The actual volume was considerably lower and now I am adjusting to it. I feel it is working a whole lot better. What were your previous reps at? I am thinking it will improve a lot once our bodies adapt to the increased volume (if you trained similar to me).


Sadly, I am having to move to a 4 day split in a couple of weeks but am going to use a lot of the principals of this workout in there until work slows down and I can resume this routine.

[syncmaster913n]

da **** how long did that take to complete ? how long do you think you wil llast on this program

i take longer breaks than usual between individual exercises (i train at home), so the whole thing probably lasted 6-7 hours. Of that, probably 3 hours were actual lifting.

i'll last on it however long I last. the goal is 3 weeks of overreaching followed by one week of deloading for each muscle group. I'll play around with it.

[landus123]

had my first D1+D2+D3 today in one day (this is not a daily thing yet, I'm doing D1+D2 daily, but D3 is added only every 2nd day, and 6 days from now it will be D1/2/3 daily, seven days a week). I need to slightly change the order of the exercises with the goal of getting squats, RDL and chin ups out of the way as quickly as possible as they are the heaviest exercises - the remaining ones are pretty much relaxation time in comparison. I was close to quitting at one point today, thinking to myself that "this is too much for one day," but then I sat down and realized that it was actually only too much for the mind - the body on the other hand was just fine and capable of way more. Pushed through it and waiting to see how the next daily D1+D2+D3 will go.

Chin ups right now are being a real biatch; as I said a few posts earlier it's easily my weakest exercise. After only a few days of overreaching D1+D2 together, I can only manage 6x BW chin ups on the first set (compared to 9 when I started the overreach for the back), and after I've completed around 16 reps I need around 1,5 minutes of rest in order to perform one extra rep only (I sh*t you not). it's ok though, just takes a long time to complete.

Other than that, not much to report: feeling fine, no injuries and no unusual pain anywhere, no muscle cramps or anything. I'm pretty sure things will change though once D3 becomes a daily occurence.

Hey man really cool to see you doing this now, will be good to see what you get out of it. Keep going with those chins! I don't know if you get any issues with your grip but I put some tissue in my palms and it really helped me to focus on pounding them out. Haha I haven't done D3 over-reaching but can imagine it's going to be THE ENEMY. Good luck with this mate and just take it easy

[senrabt02]

I was experiencing the same thing. I think my problem was I was mostly coming from routines where I would only use 8 reps as the highest amount I would do. Mostly did 8,6,4 for my sets and with a lot more rest. The actual volume was considerably lower and now I am adjusting to it. I feel it is working a whole lot better. What were your previous reps at? I am thinking it will improve a lot once our bodies adapt to the increased volume (if you trained similar to me).


Sadly, I am having to move to a 4 day split in a couple of weeks but am going to use a lot of the principals of this workout in there until work slows down and I can resume this routine.

Pretty much the same as you mentioned. Sets we 10, 8, 6, 4, etc, increasing weight and longer rests. I'm by no means advance, but I have worked out my whole life. But this workout is unlike anything I have ever done. I'm sure in time I will adjust to the volume. And to be honest I'm not too concerned about getting stronger. I'm way past the stage of trying to impress people with how much I can lift. Actually, I was NEVER at a point where I could impress people with my strength. I've always been relatively tall and skinny. I just want to look stronger and more muscular. But I've never been able to get that cut look without losing weight and looking too skinny.

I sort of wish I had the problem of not being able to get to the gym. My biggest problem is not taking days. I am addicted to that feeling after you workout, being all tight and pumped up. By the time that wears off I can't wait to get back in the gym the next morning. I'm dreading doing a reload like Kelei suggests. There is NO WAY I can go 2 weeks just doing my 1 set of 10 for each exercise. I keep waiting for someone to tell me that isn't necasary. But I am 44 so I am pretty sure that rest is more important for me than it would be for someone younger. I have to figure out a way to take some time off. Any advice would be appreciated.

[adamxbomb]

Pretty much the same as you mentioned. Sets we 10, 8, 6, 4, etc, increasing weight and longer rests. I'm by no means advance, but I have worked out my whole life. But this workout is unlike anything I have ever done. I'm sure in time I will adjust to the volume. And to be honest I'm not too concerned about getting stronger. I'm way past the stage of trying to impress people with how much I can lift. Actually, I was NEVER at a point where I could impress people with my strength. I've always been relatively tall and skinny. I just want to look stronger and more muscular. But I've never been able to get that cut look without losing weight and looking too skinny.

I sort of wish I had the problem of not being able to get to the gym. My biggest problem is not taking days. I am addicted to that feeling after you workout, being all tight and pumped up. By the time that wears off I can't wait to get back in the gym the next morning. I'm dreading doing a reload like Kelei suggests. There is NO WAY I can go 2 weeks just doing my 1 set of 10 for each exercise. I keep waiting for someone to tell me that isn't necasary. But I am 44 so I am pretty sure that rest is more important for me than it would be for someone younger. I have to figure out a way to take some time off. Any advice would be appreciated.

Im pretty comparable to you, this routien is designed for bodybuilding ( being symmetrical ) thats the main reason why I love the 6 day split, Im able to almost go to the gym everyday, and see amazing results, my only advice is to find another activity that takes your mind off the gym, because in the end after all the volume eventually you will need a deload to let your muscles catch up, its unavoidable, but im going to do 6/1 and then 3/1 deload like AD suggests, so I dont have to deload for a whole 2 weeks.

[wgbjeff]

I sort of wish I had the problem of not being able to get to the gym. My biggest problem is not taking days. I am addicted to that feeling after you workout, being all tight and pumped up. By the time that wears off I can't wait to get back in the gym the next morning. I'm dreading doing a reload like Kelei suggests. There is NO WAY I can go 2 weeks just doing my 1 set of 10 for each exercise. I keep waiting for someone to tell me that isn't necasary. But I am 44 so I am pretty sure that rest is more important for me than it would be for someone younger. I have to figure out a way to take some time off. Any advice would be appreciated.

Im pretty comparable to you, this routien is designed for bodybuilding ( being symmetrical ) thats the main reason why I love the 6 day split, Im able to almost go to the gym everyday, and see amazing results, my only advice is to find another activity that takes your mind off the gym, because in the end after all the volume eventually you will need a deload to let your muscles catch up, its unavoidable, but im going to do 6/1 and then 3/1 deload like AD suggests, so I dont have to deload for a whole 2 weeks.

I felt the same when I was starting the routine. I did a 6/1 deload too. But after 2-3 cycles you'll be counting down the days until a deload--the volume really starts to add up.

That being said, I still get bored and feel like a useless fatass when I'm on a deload. It's worth it in the long-run, though.

[senrabt02]

I felt the same when I was starting the routine. I did a 6/1 deload too. But after 2-3 cycles you'll be counting down the days until a deload--the volume really starts to add up.

That being said, I still get bored and feel like a useless fatass when I'm on a deload. It's worth it in the long-run, though.

That is exactly what I was trying to say. I feel like a useless putz when I don't go to the gym. It's more mental than anything.

[syncmaster913n]

Hey man really cool to see you doing this now, will be good to see what you get out of it. Keep going with those chins! I don't know if you get any issues with your grip but I put some tissue in my palms and it really helped me to focus on pounding them out. Haha I haven't done D3 over-reaching but can imagine it's going to be THE ENEMY. Good luck with this mate and just take it easy

Thanks man. I wear winter gloves when doing chin ups (don't have regular gym gloves and the winter ones are doing fine) no grip issues at all, I'm just pretty new to this exercise and still have relatively lots of fat on me (17%), which doesn't make it any easier. I'm more than certain it will improve though (it actually has already compared to when I first started the routine).

I'm definitely feeling stronger in general and also have already noticed improvements in the mirror (kind of like being on a permanent pump). Can't wait to see how things will look after the deload.

Muscles are sore 24/7, in a good way though.

Here are some highlights of random exercises on the overreach:

CHEST: (40 reps per exercise)

Day 1 of overreach: flat (145 pounds) 10 reps, incline (115 pounds) 10 reps
Day 7 of overreach: flat (149 pounds) 11 reps, incline (120 pounds) 11 reps

BICEPS: (40 reps)

Day 1 of overreach: 50 pounds, 10 reps
Day 4 of overreach: 58 pounds, 11 reps (seriously)

CHIN-UPS (40 reps total, though I don't do pull ups)

Day 1 of overreach: BW x 9
Day 4 of overreach: BW x 7 (got 6 yesterday so I'm pretty surprised to get 7 today, I was expecting this one to plummet rapidly)

This exercise takes the longest due to my poor recovery between "sets".

SUPPORTED BENT-OVER ROWS (30 reps):

Day 1 of overreach: 110 pounds, 15 reps
Day 4 of overreach: 118 pounds, 11 reps

RDL (40 reps)

Keep in mind that at the moment I'm only doing RDL once every second day, not daily.

Day 1 of overreach: 250 pounds, 15 reps
Day 4 of overreach: 265 pounds, 13 reps

I'll mention more exercises soon enough, once I've been overreaching everything for at least a week.

[TeenMisc]

Read back through the thread. Your questions have been answered multiple times.

1. The order of exercises is irrelevant. You can put rear delt fly's between chins and pull ups if you'd like or the rows as you suggested.

2. Front delts are worked plenty with BP & Incline BP.

3. There's plenty of people running different exercises than what Kelei has laid out.

Thank you good sir, but i am still curious as to why Kelei puts chin-ups followed by pullups as the first back exercises :/

[syncmaster913n]

Thank you good sir, but i am still curious as to why Kelei puts chin-ups followed by pullups as the first back exercises :/

Kelei set up the order of the exercies according to his own preferences (that's basically how he likes to do them). You can do them however you want to suit your taste / recovery better.

[wgbjeff]

Thank you good sir, but i am still curious as to why Kelei puts chin-ups followed by pullups as the first back exercises :/

It's irrelevant, you could do rows first if you wish. You could even do pullups in the morning and chinups in the evening. It doesn't really matter as long as you get the exercises in.

If you feel like your back needs more thickness than width, you can even add in another rowing movement and replace pullups. Or you can keep them both. It's really up to you; this routine has a lot of room for change--just keep the same principles.

[wwazza]

I thought I've read most if not all this thread, but what is meant by overeach.