Intermediate/Advanced Routine

[Kelei]

For DB extensions, i never done them so i tried 7.5kg but it was 'alright' but prob 10kg would of been my 10RM. Did you mean it looked like ALL of my exercises were 15RM instead of 10RM, most of them were, though some were could be 11RM etc

I was only talking about DB extensions, the rest of the workout looked fine .

[gingersgym]

Some issues im coming up with Kelei and though you could chime in...

On chest day im finding the 50 rep set up hard, not because of the reps but because of the weight...

iv increased weight to 90kg and im hitting the 10 reps fine, however from about 25 reps it goes down hill, im finding it hard to complete even one rep especially on the second 50 reps incline even with 40 seconds rest...

not sure why? the weight isnt the issue as im hitting the 10 reps fine but the reps drop off so bad... only mad 44 on incline as i was failing or cheating most of the later reps...

everything else it works out fine, because with back/legs you can just push harder, but once your chest hits that sticking point your screwed especially as i have no spotter....

thanks

[Kelei]

Some issues im coming up with Kelei and though you could chime in...

On chest day im finding the 50 rep set up hard, not because of the reps but because of the weight...

iv increased weight to 90kg and im hitting the 10 reps fine, however from about 25 reps it goes down hill, im finding it hard to complete even one rep especially on the second 50 reps incline even with 40 seconds rest...

not sure why? the weight isnt the issue as im hitting the 10 reps fine but the reps drop off so bad... only mad 44 on incline as i was failing or cheating most of the later reps...

everything else it works out fine, because with back/legs you can just push harder, but once your chest hits that sticking point your screwed especially as i have no spotter....

thanks

It takes some time to adapt to the routine, especially if you're not accustomed to high volume routines in general. Perhaps you should stick with 30 reps for bench press for the time being and increase this to 40 after 3 months and then later increase this to 50 after another 3 months (6 months total).

It's also apparent that several of you are closer to the beginner end of intermediate rather than the advanced end (I titled the routine as intermediate/advanced for good reason), I usually advise beginners to use 30 reps instead of 50 and to spend 6 months getting accustomed to the volume before they take on the standard 50 total reps.

If you guys are finding it too tough to complete your 50 total reps I suggest that you reduce your total rep target to 30 or 40 for the time being.

[berkeberke]

Some issues im coming up with Kelei and though you could chime in...

On chest day im finding the 50 rep set up hard, not because of the reps but because of the weight...

iv increased weight to 90kg and im hitting the 10 reps fine, however from about 25 reps it goes down hill, im finding it hard to complete even one rep especially on the second 50 reps incline even with 40 seconds rest...

not sure why? the weight isnt the issue as im hitting the 10 reps fine but the reps drop off so bad... only mad 44 on incline as i was failing or cheating most of the later reps...

everything else it works out fine, because with back/legs you can just push harder, but once your chest hits that sticking point your screwed especially as i have no spotter....

thanks

I will agree with you that it is difficult, but there's definitely some things you can do to help. I increased my carb intake to take up 50% of my calories that I eat in a day (you may not need quite that much, but that's what I need since I bus tables for 6 hours in a busy restaurant every night), which definitely helped. Also how long are you waiting inbetween your last bench press set to your first incline press set? I increased my rest time to 5-6 minutes inbetween exercises and that helped alot. Remember, you're going to be doing probably 15 sets, so just because you "feel" rested enough for the first set of the new exercise doesn't mean you should necessarily start yet since you're going to follow that with another 14 sets, I'd take the extra rest if you're not doing so already.

[Simmo90]

Hi, tried this workout today and my god it killed me!
Altered it a little to fit around my schedule but i'm going to be doing:
Mon: Back/Bi's
Tue: Chest/Tri's
Wed: Legs/Cardio
Thur: Back/Bi's
Fri: Chest?Tri's
Sat: Legs?Cardio
Sun: Rest

Will the routine still work my way? And also will this workout still help build muscle size seeing as it's alot of reps?

Thanks.

[Kelei]

Hi, tried this workout today and my god it killed me!
Altered it a little to fit around my schedule but i'm going to be doing:
Mon: Back/Bi's
Tue: Chest/Tri's
Wed: Legs/Cardio
Thur: Back/Bi's
Fri: Chest?Tri's
Sat: Legs?Cardio
Sun: Rest

Will the routine still work my way? And also will this workout still help build muscle size seeing as it's alot of reps?

Thanks.

I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work, split order doesn't really matter. You'll gain plenty of muscle, this is after all a hypertrophy focused routine.

[elJohn]

Mr-Nathan is right, that's exactly how you do it. Why do you want to replace preacher curls? Not liking them isn't a valid reason, there's a few exercises I don't like but I perform them anyways. You can stick with the standard 30 seconds rest between each set if you like (it's not going to matter all that much if you stray from 3 reps in your rest-pause sets, just don't stray too far), I probably should have been more clear in the OP and specifically mentioned that it was only a rough example.

Alright because even if my max 10R is 195 today If I want to be only able to hit 3 reps on my second set I'll only have to rest 10 seconds or so.
And it doesn't mean I can hit more than 195 but that's how I know it'll be. I'd prefer to keep it at an even 20-30 second rest. I'm starting today later on in 7hrs. I will stop by the store to buy a stop watch because it's hard to switch back and forth from applications on my iPhone with only 20 seconds to spare. I keep forgetting and by the time I remember it's already time to go.

Preacher curls are uncomfortable for me with heavy weights. But I'm sure it's probably because I haven't got used to it. I'll do as told.

[Chicago1287]

It's also apparent that several of you are closer to the beginner end of intermediate rather than the advanced end (I titled the routine as intermediate/advanced for good reason), I usually advise beginners to use 30 reps instead of 50 and to spend 6 months getting accustomed to the volume before they take on the standard 50 total reps.

Isn't it crazy that beginners are more willing to try this than the advanced lifters on here?

I'm thinking I will start off with 40 reps and work my way up to 50. I'm definitely not used to this type of volume so I'll have to work my way up. Especially now that I'm sick, I can't imagine how weak I'll be when I get back to the gym.

[elJohn]

Isn't it crazy that beginners are more willing to try this than the advanced lifters on here?

I'm thinking I will start off with 40 reps and work my way up to 50. I'm definitely not used to this type of volume so I'll have to work my way up. Especially now that I'm sick, I can't imagine how weak I'll be when I get back to the gym.

Not going to lie, I'm close to a beginner in knowledge, but I've been doing 50 reps for a while, just not with my 10RM, more like 70%
For example if my max is 185. I was doing close to 50 reps with 140, but I would warm up with 135, add weight, and every next set I would add 10 lbs until I usually got close to 175-185 and my last set would be 5-7 reps.

But I'm glad Kelei put this workout out there. I was looking for exactly this that day too. It was like destiny.. no lie -.-
I had just posted up a thread asking for help finding a 6 day workout that would workout my body to it's max and give me great results.. 5 mins later. Kelei posts this workout and I jumped on it ever since.

I'm starting late because I got sick, But I'm not taking any shortcuts (only on pull ups) but that's because I can't do any lol. Otherwize I would. But as soon as I can I will start doing those.

[usawinston]

I am currently in the market for a routine that is more than 3x a week. This routine sounds doable and tempting, but is it giving the body enough time to recover? 6x a week lifting is double the "standard" routine.

[Chicago1287]

I am currently in the market for a routine that is more than 3x a week. This routine sounds doable and tempting, but is it giving the body enough time to recover? 6x a week lifting is double the "standard" routine.

If your diet and rest are on point, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to recover. After seeing one of my friends do an insane high volume routine (probably more than this routine), I realized that "overtraining" really is unlikely if you're eating enough and doing everything right.

[Alyion]

Isn't it crazy that beginners are more willing to try this than the advanced lifters on here?

To be honest, I think the simplicity might put people off. I speak for myself mainly, but when I see intermediate routine I always expect some kinda percentage-based periodisation routine over the course of 4 months or something.

*edit* Not to say that's a bad thing, I think sometimes its best to just lift and not overanalyise everything. Main reason i'm interested in trying this is because i'm starting to get burned out of low rep strength stuff lately, but i'll admit when I say i'm still hitting 5's until it stops working for me.

[usawinston]

If your diet and rest are on point, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to recover. After seeing one of my friends do an insane high volume routine (probably more than this routine), I realized that "overtraining" really is unlikely if you're eating enough and doing everything right.

Thanks for the advice. I just don't want to find myself in a position where I'm being counterproductive.

Not directly related, and certainly open to everyone else: What if I adjust the routine as such? (Or did I totally butcher the intent?) I don't like including deadlift and squat on the same day, I've never had a good experience with that split.

Also, to compensate for the adjustment, which would have me doing arms 6 days in a row, I put the rest day inbetween D3 and D1.


D1 - Upper/ Lower back, rear delts, biceps
D2 - Chest, triceps
D3 - Legs/Delts
D4 - Rest
D5 - Repeat D1
D6 - Repeat D2
D7 - Repeat D3

D1 - Deadlift, Chin-ups, pull-ups, chest-supported rows (or seated rows), preacher curls
D2 - Bench press, incline bench press, rope pressdowns, Dumbell Fly
D3 - Back squats, leg extensions, standing calf raises, Shoulder press, lateral raises

[Jooceman]

Thanks for the advice. I just don't want to find myself in a position where I'm being counterproductive.

Not directly related, and certainly open to everyone else: What if I adjust the routine as such? (Or did I totally butcher the intent?) I don't like including deadlift and squat on the same day, I've never had a good experience with that split.

Also, to compensate for the adjustment, which would have me doing arms 6 days in a row, I put the rest day inbetween D3 and D1.


D1 - Upper/ Lower back, rear delts, biceps
D2 - Chest, triceps
D3 - Legs/Delts
D4 - Rest
D5 - Repeat D1
D6 - Repeat D2
D7 - Repeat D3

D1 - Deadlift, Chin-ups, pull-ups, chest-supported rows (or seated rows), preacher curls
D2 - Bench press, incline bench press, rope pressdowns, Dumbell Fly
D3 - Back squats, leg extensions, standing calf raises, Shoulder press, lateral raises

Back squats and regular deadlifts on the same day are a terrible idea i agree but this program doesn't use either. Front squats and romanian deadlifts are a great combination, you shouldn't have any problems having these in the same workout at all. I think the reason that we use these is because by doing this you make sure your quads, glutes and hamstrings all get the right amount of focus.

With back squats theres too many little issues with form that can change the way they affect your development (you could be quad dominant or posterior chain dominant for example) so thats why I think Kelei says they're overrated for bodybuilding purposes. For strength nothing is better, but assuming you're trying to bodybuild, you should be more focused on overall muscular development which is the purpose of this routine. You also took out hamstring curls, so by doing only regular deads and back squats you're hamstrings aren't going to be anywhere near as developed as they should be and you're also going to get more lower back work than you actually need.

I used to only do back squats and deadlifts and nothing else. When I started this routine and isolated my hamstrings I could barely manage 30 lbs on the standing leg curl machine even though I could squat in the high 200s and deadlift in the low 300s. I also had knee pain doing deadlifts and leg curls which has gone away almost completely since I've strengthened my hamstrings. I guess I can't really speak for Kelei, but IMO the changes you made aren't necessary.

lol I just typed a wall of text and you probably knew all of this stuff already but I just wanted to put in my $.02. At the end of the day you have to do the routine that you enjoy and will keep you in the gym I guess.

[usawinston]

Back squats and regular deadlifts on the same day are a terrible idea i agree but this program doesn't use either. Front squats and romanian deadlifts are a great combination, you shouldn't have any problems having these in the same workout at all. I think the reason that we use these is because by doing this you make sure your quads, glutes and hamstrings all get the right amount of focus.

With back squats theres too many little issues with form that can change the way they affect your development (you could be quad dominant or posterior chain dominant for example) so thats why I think Kelei says they're overrated for bodybuilding purposes. For strength nothing is better, but assuming you're trying to bodybuild, you should be more focused on overall muscular development which is the purpose of this routine. You also took out hamstring curls, so by doing only regular deads and back squats you're hamstrings aren't going to be anywhere near as developed as they should be and you're also going to get more lower back work than you actually need.

I used to only do back squats and deadlifts and nothing else. When I started this routine and isolated my hamstrings I could barely manage 30 lbs on the standing leg curl machine even though I could squat in the high 200s and deadlift in the low 300s. I also had knee pain doing deadlifts and leg curls which has gone away almost completely since I've strengthened my hamstrings. I guess I can't really speak for Kelei, but IMO the changes you made aren't necessary.

lol I just typed a wall of text and you probably knew all of this stuff already but I just wanted to put in my $.02. At the end of the day you have to do the routine that you enjoy and will keep you in the gym I guess.

Thanks for the input, repped. I am interested in gaining strength, but I am also striving to attain a stronger physique (bodybuild). I don't think that I feel comfortable giving up the back squat or the regular deadlift; those two are my absolute favorite lifts.

What if I hit my hammies doing dumbell lunges?

I glanced over the above routine again, and I feel like there's too much overlap between day 2 and day 3. I can't see it being healthy to do incline press and overhead press separated by only 24 hours.

I need to hit the drawing board again or come up with something totally different. An idea I was throwing around was separating each WO by 36 hours, so:

D1A: Upper/ Lower back, rear delts, biceps
D1P: Rest
D2A:Rest
D2P: Chest, triceps
D3A: Rest
D3P: Rest
D4A: Legs/Delts
D4P: Rest
D5A: Rest
D5P: Upper/ Lower back, rear delts, biceps

W1 - Deadlift, Chin-ups, pull-ups, chest-supported rows (or seated rows), preacher curls
W2 - Bench press, incline bench press, rope pressdowns, Dumbell Fly
W3 - Back squats, leg extensions, standing calf raises, Dumbell Lunges, Shoulder press, lateral raises

Perhaps at this point, though, I've stepped too far out of the realm of this thread.

[Jooceman]

Thanks for the input, repped. I am interested in gaining strength, but I am also striving to attain a stronger physique (bodybuild). I don't think that I feel comfortable giving up the back squat or the regular deadlift; those two are my absolute favorite lifts.

What if I hit my hammies doing dumbell lunges?

I glanced over the above routine again, and I feel like there's too much overlap between day 2 and day 3. I can't see it being healthy to do incline press and overhead press separated by only 24 hours.

I need to hit the drawing board again or come up with something totally different. An idea I was throwing around was separating each WO by 36 hours, so:

D1A: Upper/ Lower back, rear delts, biceps
D1P: Rest
D2A:Rest
D2P: Chest, triceps
D3A: Rest
D3P: Rest
D4A: Legs/Delts
D4P: Rest
D5A: Rest
D5P: Upper/ Lower back, rear delts, biceps

W1 - Deadlift, Chin-ups, pull-ups, chest-supported rows (or seated rows), preacher curls
W2 - Bench press, incline bench press, rope pressdowns, Dumbell Fly
W3 - Back squats, leg extensions, standing calf raises, Dumbell Lunges, Shoulder press, lateral raises

Perhaps at this point, though, I've stepped too far out of the realm of this thread.

Yeah lol this would be something completely different than Kelei's routine. The point of it is to hit everything twice a week in a way that every single muscle gets hit as effectively as possible. But with you're comment about incline presses, in the past I've done incline press the day before overhead pressing and its worked out fine. Though they were both with dumbbells and you probably would get better results if you were fresh for both.

[elJohn]

okay guys finally I have the post count required for links and pictures.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=147219763

so subscribe I need advice and comments.
I will update it tonight with before pictures / how i am now.
and will post logs. Also I will post my first progress pictures in three months!
Wish me luck!

[Texans4Win]

Ive read a few pages and my question wasnt really addressed so i figure i'd ask...Im a big guy but im not a bodybuilder or specificly a powerlifter...I want to gain strength and also fix my body fat percentage, would this program work? and what would you say is Interediate/Advanced lifter?

[elJohn]

Ive read a few pages and my question wasnt really addressed so i figure i'd ask...Im a big guy but im not a bodybuilder or specificly a powerlifter...I want to gain strength and also fix my body fat percentage, would this program work? and what would you say is Interediate/Advanced lifter?

I'm the same as yourself.
I'm not small or very fit yet, but I have lost weight working out using something similar to this routine.
I asked the same question to Kelei and he answered saying that the main way to replace fat with muscle is to control your diet, and this routine would work perfectly with you.
As Lon as you follow it through, eat less calories. You'll see results.
My main factor would be to replace fat with muscle thus loosing weight slowly but also tightening my body to be stronger and have less fat.
Don't feel like you're not loosing fat if you don't actually go down on weight.
Remember muscle weights more than fat!

[lwevert]

It's also apparent that several of you are closer to the beginner end of intermediate rather than the advanced end (I titled the routine as intermediate/advanced for good reason), I usually advise beginners to use 30 reps instead of 50 and to spend 6 months getting accustomed to the volume before they take on the standard 50 total reps.

If you guys are finding it too tough to complete your 50 total reps I suggest that you reduce your total rep target to 30 or 40 for the time being.

After following this thread for a while and doing the workout for a month now it is labeled intermediate/advanced for a reason. It maybe more appropriate to doing another type of workout first to get a good foundation and then move onto something else.

The reason I say that is my friend did this for a week and be is a beginner. He only lasted a week and was to intimidated/inexperienced and quite. He is now following a 5x5 program to learn the fundamentals and get a good foundation.

[Kelei]

Ive read a few pages and my question wasnt really addressed so i figure i'd ask...Im a big guy but im not a bodybuilder or specificly a powerlifter...I want to gain strength and also fix my body fat percentage, would this program work? and what would you say is Interediate/Advanced lifter?

If you follow this routine and hold your scale weight steady you'll slowly lose fat weight and replace it with muscle weight. An intermediate/advanced lifter should have 2-3 years of steady lifting experience.

[ThatOneLurker]

Remember muscle weights more than fat!

what? lol


5lbs of muscle is the same as 5 lbs of fat

5 lbs is 5 lbs no matter what


anyway, it's been a week and I notice my biceps and chest/abs a bit "fuller" if you will

but I'm sure it's just the glycogen supercompensation kelei spoke on


either way, it's motivating

[alex1986]

Been doing this for about 3 weeks now, seeing some great progress. I think the biggest plus is how addictive this routine is. It makes going to the gym exciting again. Thanks for sharing this amazing routine with everyone.

[Kelei]

Usawinston I don't like those splits you posted and I think you're worrying about a non-issue when it comes to rest days and overlapping workouts as you put it, it doesn't really matter how you arrange your split (assuming an equal training frequency and an equal total weekly volume), you don't need to seperate your workouts.

I'm also not a fan of regular deadlifts and back squats and I think adding direct front delt work is basically a waste of time. You need leg curls because they train your hamstrings in a different manner (knee flexion instead of hip extension) than deadlifts.

I can't tell you how to train, I can only tell you how I think you should train, the choice is yours at the end of the day.

[ThatOneLurker]

muscle is more "dense" than fat, the 5 lbs of muscle takes up less space and so you would appear slightly leaner and/or thinner

but yea 5 lb is 5 lb

and it is glycogen (which is 75% water) You fill your glycogen stores and you may see yourself gaining a few lbs and appear a little more muscular

yea its motivating

you basically restated everything I just said lol

[randyyle]

Hey its me again, i was doing upper lower version of this and im doing D1+D2 for 30 reps to start off a couple of week. I did 40 reps for D3 today caused it seem like 50 reps was alot for it and i was right and i did only 60 reps for standing calf raises

[robosphere]

I've been doing AllPro's beginner routine for about 20 weeks. I had a foot injury and have been off a week. While out, I came across this, and all you guys' various logs. I am hooked!

If I get the go ahead from my ortho doctor, I'm going to start this at the end of this week. At least the two non-leg days to start. I won't be able to do calf raises for at least 6 weeks. I'm still a beginner for the most part, so I'll start with 30 reps. I'll start a log and take progress pics every month. I am excited!

[Mr-Nathan]

Chest supported rows and rear delt flies.

Better to use machines or dumbells? Finding machines much easier to keep a consistent form.

[Kelei]

Chest supported rows and rear delt flies.

Better to use machines or dumbells? Finding machines much easier to keep a consistent form.

I prefer machines.

[robosphere]

I guess I should probably ask - is this routine OK for older guys? Outside of my stupid foot injury, I have no other injuries or worries.