Intermediate/Advanced Routine

[AD1984]

Didn't even know that was possible lol.

Collarbones and shoulders. My Olympic lifting friend has some that look like scars. Definitely possible lol.

[Kelei]

Hey Kelei I've seen you advocate a type of training for a specific exercise, where you "overreach" and get weaker in it and after you back off you get stronger.
I was wondering what are your thoughts on it in terms of muscle gains? If you gain muscle from it, when will it happen? During the overreaching period or during the period where you back off and get stronger?

Also what do you consider failure, doing the max amount of reps without failing any reps. This means if you use your 10rm, you do 10 reps and don't go for the 11th rep because you know you can't get it. Or that you use your 10rm and do 10 reps because it's the max you can do.

You'll make most of your gains during the deload period. By failure I mean performing as many reps as you can without failing, if you're not going to be able to complete your 11th rep you should stop at 10.

i know you dont personally count protein calories kelei, but i think you advocate around 140g per day? im on hols for a week, so unlikely to exercise for that week. itll be hard to consume that amount of protein in a hotel, so would you say that would have catabolism repercussions?
do i still need to be consuming that much if im not lifting that day? and if i do manage it, will it limit muscle loss while im laying in the sun drinking alcohol? :-D

100 grams of protein per day is plenty and will prevent muscle wasting. If you're going to drink alcohol make sure to drink plenty of water as well, alcohol dehydrates you which is what causes hangovers (you dry out overnight and wake up with a headache), drinking plenty of water before bed and during the night will prevent hangovers.

Keep drinking throughout the night, even if you're not thirsty (alcohol tricks your brain into suppressing your thirst so you won't feel thirsty even though you're becoming dehydrated).

[Kelei]

I noticed something that I experienced on almost all of the programs I have run before and would like some input on it. I find that whenever I push myself on the first exercises that the later exercises suffer from it. As an example since I did higher weights on Bi and Tri days I could barely do the 5 reps on the isolation Bi and Tri workouts with the same weight that I used doing the 10 reps doing it with the other format. I wast resting at least 7 minutes between exercises and even failed on one rep with the rest pause portion after 1 minute rest. Maybe I am reaching to far should I try maybe 3 reps on the first set of the isolations and try adding one rep each exercise and see how that goes?

Stick with it for a while and see if it improves on its own, most problems sort themselves out, there's no need to panic too early.

I am now officially in love with front squats.

My favourite exercise.

[ProgressIsGood]

I just did workout d1 in that week again, and my strength actually decreased. I was down one rep on the bench to 9 reps.
I was doing previously and today 40 reps on the bench, incline and dips.
Is strength decrease normal at first?
Also I was quite sore today in my pecs and triceps before I started the workout.

[Kelei]

I just did workout d1 in that week again, and my strength actually decreased. I was down one rep on the bench to 9 reps.
I was doing previously and today 40 reps on the bench, incline and dips.
Is strength decrease normal at first?
Also I was quite sore today in my pecs and triceps before I started the workout.

You've just started the routine? It takes a few weeks for your body to get over the initial shock of the routine. Also don't worry too much if your strength levels fluctuate, some workouts you might be a little bit weaker, some workouts you might be a little bit stornger, but in the long run you'll be getting stronger.

Compare your weight/reps in 3 months to your starting weight/reps and you'll see what I mean. If you're not making progress over the long term this is when the alarm bells start ringing and something needs to be fixed.

It's only been around 4 months since I created this thread, I know that seems like a long time but in the grand scheme of things 4 months is nothing, it'll be interesting to see what kind of progress people have made after 12 months. Great physiques take 5+ years to build, there's no need to panic if your arms aren't 18 inches after only 1 year.

[ProgressIsGood]

You've just started the routine? It takes a few weeks for your body to get over the initial shock of the routine. Also don't worry too much if your strength levels fluctuate, some workouts you might be a little bit weaker, some workouts you might be a little bit stornger, but in the long run you'll be getting stronger.

Compare your weight/reps in 3 months to your starting weight/reps and you'll see what I mean. If you're not making progress over the long term this is when the alarm bells start ringing and something needs to be fixed.

It's only been around 4 months since I created this thread, I know that seems like a long time but in the grand scheme of things 4 months is nothing, it'll be interesting to see what kind of progress people have made after 12 months.

I see so strength decrease at the start of this program is to be expected because the volume is much higher, right?
My problem has always been though that I have period where I get a great deal stronger and then I start getting weaker, then I regain it and get stuck for a while at the same weight and reps.
Are the strength gains consistent in this program though? For the most part at least.

[Kelei]

I see so strength decrease at the start of this program is to be expected because the volume is much higher, right?
My problem has always been though that I have period where I get a great deal stronger and then I start getting weaker, then I regain it and get stuck for a while at the same weight and reps.
Are the strength gains consistent in this program though? For the most part at least.

How long do you get stuck at the same weight/reps? If we're only talking about 2-3 weeks you're worrying about a non-issue, 2-3 weeks is not long enough to be considered a plateau (unless you're a rank beginner).

Your strength can fluctuate from workout to workout and even from week to week, don't be too concerned by this, it's perfectly normal. All that matters is that your weight/reps are increasing over the long term. Stop thinking in terms of individual workouts or even individual weeks, start thinking in terms of 4 week blocks (roughly 1 month) etc.

Just go through the motions and compare your weight/reps at the end of each 4 week block, at the end of each block you should be stronger than you were at the end of your previous block, it doesn't matter if your strength levels fluctuate up and down as you go along, all that matters is that you're stronger at the end of each new block.

[ProgressIsGood]

How long do you get stuck at the same weight/reps? If we're only talking about 2-3 weeks you're worrying about a non-issue, 2-3 weeks is not long enough to be considered a plateau (unless you're a rank beginner).

Your strength can fluctuate from workout to workout and even from week to week, don't be too concerned by this, it's perfectly normal. All that matters is that your weight/reps are increasing over the long term. Stop thinking in terms of individual workouts or even individual weeks, start thinking in terms of 4 week blocks (roughly 1 month) etc.

Actually I can get stuck for even 4 months with barely any progress. It might have been because maybe my program wasn't ideal, but on the same program I also made fairly fast progress at some point.

[Kelei]

Actually I can get stuck for even 4 months with barely any progress. It might have been because maybe my program wasn't ideal, but on the same program I also made fairly fast progress.

There's no way you should be stuck at the same weight/reps for 4 months. How lean were you? How many calories were you eating? What's your definition of "barely any progress"?

[ProgressIsGood]

There's no way you should be stuck at the same weight/reps for 4 months. How lean were you? How many calories were you eating? What's your definition of "barely any progress"?

Um.. I have been eating at least at maintenance, maybe a little bit above. I don't count calories I just know how much food I need to maintain, increase or decrease and how much protein and fat I'm eating.
I'd say my bf is around 15% so I can't exactly go on an all out bulk.
And by barely progress I mean for example on the bench maybe 10lbs at best, squats also 10lbs, pullups little to no improvments, etc..

[Kelei]

Um.. I have been eating at least at maintenance, maybe a little bit above. I don't count calories I just know how much food I need to maintain, increase or decrease and how much protein and fat I'm eating.
I'd say my bf is around 15% so I can't exactly go on an all out bulk.
And by barely progress I mean for example on the bench maybe 10lbs at best, squats also 10lbs, pullups little to no improvments, etc..

What routines have you been using? Was the volume low in general?

[tazmanpa]

Thank Kelei I will keep you updated how things progress.

[ProgressIsGood]

What routines have you been using? Was the volume low in general?

I have been using low-moderate volume. My absolutely best progress was when I did a low volume routine, reverse pyramid style that was after half a year of little to no progress.
Where I'd basically train 3 times a week, do 1 set of each major compound exercise to failure followed by 2 sets of 10% less weight.
And the next workout do the same exercise but lighter and avoid failure.
After that I got stuck and started getting weaker, so I decided to try something like 4 times a week upper/lower split. With more volume, but still probably nothing as close to the volume on your routine.
I regained all of my lost strength, but never got much better.

Now I started your routine.

[wgbjeff]

Kelei I have a question. If I am 160lb 5’7 15% bf, and I want to recomp to 11%, wouldn't that technically be gaining around 6.5lb of muscle? I’ve been lifting for a little more than a year, and already gained 30lb, so it’s safe to assume my noob gains are used up. So wouldn't recomping take around a year (and I won’t be in a caloric surplus, so it would be even slower)?

[yodasbrain]

That sounds pretty good!

[ThatOneLurker]

Is it normal that some bodyparts heal faster than others? (In between workouts, DOMS-wise)

For example, my back/bis and rear/side/front delts seem to recover at the speed of light
Chest/tris/calves at a normal pace
and quads/hams/glutes the slowest

[landus123]

Hey Kelei, I've just got a few quick questions about the workout if you could help

1. I'm struggling to keep the weight up there on front squats?
2. I've replaced preacher with concentration curls; I did 30 reps each arm but it didn't feel enough- should I up it more as one arm is rested?
3. Always loved lat raises but i'm unsure how to properly target the medial delt and handle a heavier weight - my wrist seems to struggle holding the weight in correct position at the higher part of the movement and I don't know how to get round this. I bought some wrist straps that help a little but not ideal
4. Shrugs at the end of D1, after lat raises; would you barbell in front or dumbbells at side? alternate?
5. Will chin-ups (hands in) start to build my lats more... I've been doing pull-ups for a long time now (not super wide) and haven't really seen any lat development; but my middle traps have grown a lot.
6. Do you think this will get forearms beefed up a bit? It's something I really want, anyway of working it in to the routine without taking any benefits from the other exercises? What about adding hammer curls on to the end of concentration... or is it getting a bit much? I've seen some gains on my body but forearms are just massively stubborn.

I'll probably be doing 3 days on, 1 off, 3 on, 1 off etc and change the order on leg day to Front squats, Romanian deadlifts, leg extensions, leg curls etc. like you said but apart from that it's going really well and enjoying it. Really like counting the reps and hitting the target 50.

[gman44]

Is it normal that some bodyparts heal faster than others? (In between workouts, DOMS-wise)

For example, my back/bis and rear/side/front delts seem to recover at the speed of light
Chest/tris/calves at a normal pace
and quads/hams/glutes the slowest

Makes sense to me, larger muscle groups take longer to recover for the most part.. with your back being the only exception I suppose

[AD1984]

Is it normal that some bodyparts heal faster than others? (In between workouts, DOMS-wise)

For example, my back/bis and rear/side/front delts seem to recover at the speed of light
Chest/tris/calves at a normal pace
and quads/hams/glutes the slowest

Switch the first with the last and that's me lol. I can punish my legs as much as I want, they still recover faster than the rest. We're all different.

[ThatOneLurker]

Switch the first with the last and that's me lol. I can punish my legs as much as I want, they still recover faster than the rest. We're all different.

True that, I mean my hammies and calves recover fairly normal but my quads take the longest by far

Are your legs your best bodypart in your opinion?


My back is my best muscle group in my eyes which I think might be a reason it's recovery is so fast.

[Kelei]

Now I started your routine.

Well we'll have to see how you progress.

Kelei I have a question. If I am 160lb 5’7 15% bf, and I want to recomp to 11%, wouldn't that technically be gaining around 6.5lb of muscle? I’ve been lifting for a little more than a year, and already gained 30lb, so it’s safe to assume my noob gains are used up. So wouldn't recomping take around a year (and I won’t be in a caloric surplus, so it would be even slower)?

If you're impatient and want to see your abs ASAP you can simply cut.

Is it normal that some bodyparts heal faster than others? (In between workouts, DOMS-wise)

For example, my back/bis and rear/side/front delts seem to recover at the speed of light
Chest/tris/calves at a normal pace
and quads/hams/glutes the slowest

It's normal.

Hey Kelei, I've just got a few quick questions about the workout if you could help

1. I'm struggling to keep the weight up there on front squats?
2. I've replaced preacher with concentration curls; I did 30 reps each arm but it didn't feel enough- should I up it more as one arm is rested?
3. Always loved lat raises but i'm unsure how to properly target the medial delt and handle a heavier weight - my wrist seems to struggle holding the weight in correct position at the higher part of the movement and I don't know how to get round this. I bought some wrist straps that help a little but not ideal
4. Shrugs at the end of D1, after lat raises; would you barbell in front or dumbbells at side? alternate?
5. Will chin-ups (hands in) start to build my lats more... I've been doing pull-ups for a long time now (not super wide) and haven't really seen any lat development; but my middle traps have grown a lot.
6. Do you think this will get forearms beefed up a bit? It's something I really want, anyway of working it in to the routine without taking any benefits from the other exercises? What about adding hammer curls on to the end of concentration... or is it getting a bit much? I've seen some gains on my body but forearms are just massively stubborn.

I'll probably be doing 3 days on, 1 off, 3 on, 1 off etc and change the order on leg day to Front squats, Romanian deadlifts, leg extensions, leg curls etc. like you said but apart from that it's going really well and enjoying it. Really like counting the reps and hitting the target 50.

1. Have you tried the straps grip?
2. Use incline dumbbell curls instead.
3. I'd need to see a video of your form, are you making sure the front of the dumbbell is lower than the back of the dumbbell in the top position?
4. It makes little difference although dumbbells will probably feel more natural/comfortable.
5. Chin-ups with a shoulder width grip are the best, in my opinion they're far more important than pull-ups (if I was forced to choose between chin-ups and pull-ups I'd choose chin-ups without the slightest hesitation). Once you can perform 10 reps with an additional 50% of your BW you'll have an awesome set of lats, start working towards it.
6. Your forearms will grow just fine, you can add some hammer curls to your D2 workout if you like but it's not essential.

[ProgressIsGood]

Well we'll have to see how you progress.

But I should progress on your routine as long as I eat at least at maintenance and get enough sleep, no?
Can there be any other possible reasons your routine may not work?

Anyway I'm going to do workout d2 right now, this is the second d2 workout this week.

[Kelei]

But I should progress on your routine as long as I eat at least at maintenance and get enough sleep, no?
Can there be any other possible reasons your routine may not work?

Anyway I'm going to do workout d2 right now, this is the second d2 workout this week.

You'll make progress eating at maintenance (unless you're very lean) but you'll make better progress if you're eating enough calories to gain weight. Have you stopped growing yet?

Assuming you're eating enough food there's no reason why you shouldn't be making progress (getting stronger).

[ProgressIsGood]

You'll make progress eating at maintenance (unless you're very lean) but you'll make better progress if you're eating enough calories to gain weight. Have you stopped growing yet?

Assuming you're eating enough food there's no reason why you shouldn't be making progress (getting stronger).

I'm defiantly not very lean, or lean at all. 15% bf here.

By growing you mean growing in puberty? If so I don't know. I gained some height in the last months. Since last year I went up about 3cm if I remember correctly.
Also I'm 6'0 and 190lbs and I gain weight really easily and I eat less than 3000 calories per day and don't live sedentary, so I can't eat that much food or go on an all out bulking phase. Wish I had a faster metabolism though.


By the way, I just finished workout d2. And I do chin ups second. When I'm fresh I can do 14 reps of body weight chin ups, but today after pullups I could only do 7 reps despite resting 7 minutes. Just goes to show how crappy my recovery is lol.

[Kelei]

I'm defiantly not very lean, or lean at all. 15% bf here.

By growing you mean growing in puberty? If so I don't know. I gained some height in the last months. Since last year I went up about 3cm if I remember correctly.
Also I'm 6'0 and 190lbs and I gain weight really easily and I eat less than 3000 calories per day and don't live sedentary, so I can't eat that much food or go on an all out bulking phase. Wish I had a faster metabolism though.


By the way, I just finished workout d2. And I do chin ups second. When I'm fresh I can do 14 reps of body weight chin ups, but today after pullups I could only do 7 reps despite resting 7 minutes. Just goes to show how crappy my recovery is lol.

For the time being try to hold your weight steady at 190 and keep training hard in the gym.

[ProgressIsGood]

For the time being try to hold your weight steady at 190 and keep training hard in the gym.

Yeah, I'll do that.
Assuming I'd do that recomping and get to around 10%, should it take me about a year or so?
That'd mean around a 10lb muscle gain and a 10lb fat loss if I'm correct.

[Kelei]

That'd mean around a 10lb muscle gain and a 10lb fat loss if I'm correct.

Sounds about right, I think you'll be able to do it in 9 months.

[wgbjeff]

If you're impatient and want to see your abs ASAP you can simply cut.

It was just a question, I'd rather prefer a recomp. 160lb at 11% is worth the change from 160lb at 15%

Also, yesterday I hit 140kg (300lb I think) on standing calf raises, and was ready to increase. It's getting a bit heavy, do you think I should change to doing one leg at a time?

[ProgressIsGood]

By the way I always wondered, if I'm getting less sore does it indicate a better recovery?

[Kelei]

It was just a question, I'd rather prefer a recomp. 160lb at 11% is worth the change from 160lb at 15%

Also, yesterday I hit 140kg (300lb I think) on standing calf raises, and was ready to increase. It's getting a bit heavy, do you think I should change to doing one leg at a time?

You're using a barbell?

By the way I always wondered, if I'm getting less sore does it indicate a better recovery?

The repeated bout effect reduces soreness.