Intermediate/Advanced Routine

[Oyster210]

My build is similar to Arnold's although my thighs are thicker.

Hot damn!

[Kelei]

What % would you call moderate and low BF?

5% = very low
10% = low
15% = moderate
20% = high
25% = very high

[syncmaster913n]

It's too time consuming to do this for your entire body, you'd need to spend 4-5 hours in the gym per day, for 99% of people this simply isn't practical. This is why you pick 1 or 2 muscle groups to focus on at a time.

Speaking theoretically though, would doing this for the entire body help you see dramatically faster increases? I mean say one had 3 months of free time during which they can do whatever they want, no work etc. and can sleep for 10 hours 7 days a week. Would doing D1+D2+D3 together each day, 7 days a week for three weeks, then deloading for a full week, then repeating the process for another three weeks, and so on for 3 full months... what would be the effect?

I'm asking because the "consensus" seems to be that it's impossible to gain more than around 0,7 or so pounds of muscle (without juice) per week, so isn't there a point where doing this overreach -> deload -> overreach -> deload cycle becomes simply a waste of time?

[Kelei]

If you were to overreach your front delts, which exercise would you use?

Seated behind neck press, despite what many people say the exercise is perfectly safe (assuming your flexibility is sufficient).

I don't advise direct front delt work but this is definitely the go to exercise if you want to target your front delts. If you find that it bothers your shoulders or rotator cuff you can switch to regular shoulder presses (from the front).

[Kelei]

Speaking theoretically though, would doing this for the entire body help you see dramatically faster increases? I mean say one had 3 months of free time during which they can do whatever they want, no work etc. and can sleep for 10 hours 7 days a week. Would doing D1+D2+D3 together each day, 7 days a week for three weeks, then deloading for a full week, then repeating the process for another three weeks, and so on for 3 full months... what would be the effect?

I'm asking because the "consensus" seems to be that it's impossible to gain more than around 0,7 or so pounds of muscle (without juice) per week, so isn't there a point where doing this overreach -> deload -> overreach -> deload cycle becomes simply a waste of time?

It'll work but you'd have to be bat**** insane to actually go through with it. Why don't you give it a go and report back here with your progress as you go along?

Muscles can grow much faster than commonly believed, it's just that almost nobody ever pounds them hard enough. The reason why it takes X months to gain Y amount of muscle is not because it takes months for the muscles to grow, rather it's because it takes months worth of training/workouts. If you can squeeze 3 months worth of training into 4 weeks you'll experience 3 months worth of growth in only 4 weeks.

If you're seriously considering this you're going to need to drastically increase your complex carbohydrate intake, your protein intake, your creatine intake, your arachidonic acid intake (egg yolks and meat), your choline intake (egg yolks, meat, fatty dairy products) and your magnesium intake (amino acid chelated form).

[syncmaster913n]

It'll work but you'd have to be bat**** insane to actually go through with it. Why don't you give it a go and report back here with your progress as you go along? It'd well a truly blow the overtraining myth out of the water.

Muscles can grow much faster than commonly believed, it's just that almost nobody ever pounds them hard enough. The reason why it takes X months to gain Y amount of muscle is not because it takes months for the muscles to grow, rather it's because it takes months worth of training/workouts. If you can squeeze 3 months worth of training into 4 weeks you'll experience 3 months worth of growth in only 4 weeks.

If you're seriously considering this you're going to need to drastically increase your complex carbohydrate intake, your protein intake, your creatine intake, your arachidonic acid intake (egg yolks and meat), your choline intake (egg yolks, meat, fatty dairy products) and your magnesium intake (amino acid chelated form).

Yeah it does sound like something only someone crazy would attempt, and I'm afraid to even think of what it would feel like to do it lol. I'm still very early on in the routine so I don't feel like I could attempt it right now - or maybe I should? I'm only doing 30 reps right now (bumping it to 40 next week as 30 isn't really being that much of a challenge). Do you think this is something worth trying out for me, or should I first wait until I can do 50 reps on each exercise and get more accustomed to them?

Let me tell you though that giving it a shot for 6 weeks (not even 3 months) sounds really enticing, I doubt there is anything that would teach me as much about myself and my body as this.

The good thing is that I train at home, so I can split up the exercises a bit... like do D1 around noon, D2 mid-afternoon and D3 late afternoon.

[Kelei]

Yeah it does sound like something only someone crazy would attempt, and I'm afraid to even think of what it would feel like to do it lol. I'm still very early on in the routine so I don't feel like I could attempt it right now - or maybe I should? I'm only doing 30 reps right now (bumping it to 40 next week as 30 isn't really being that much of a challenge). Do you think this is something worth trying out for me, or should I first wait until I can do 50 reps on each exercise and get more accustomed to them?

Let me tell you though that giving it a shot for 6 weeks (not even 3 months) sounds really enticing, I doubt there is anything that would teach me as much about myself and my body as this.

You could give it a shot but certainly not with 50 reps, 30 reps would be much more reasonable for you.

[syncmaster913n]

You could give it a shot but certainly not with 50 reps, 30 reps would be much more reasonable for you.

Ok. I'm actually contemplating this.

Right now I'm at 17,5% BF after a very long cut (7 months), moved to a recomp around a week or so ago. You can see my cut progress pics over here: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1002677203

Do you think I could attempt this while recomping, or should I be on a bulk if I want to meet the necessary macro requirements?

[Kelei]

Ok. I'm actually contemplating this.

Right now I'm at 17,5% BF after a very long cut (7 months), moved to a recomp around a week or so ago. You can see my cut progress pics over here: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1002677203

Do you think I could attempt this while recomping, or should I be on a bulk if I want to meet the necessary macro requirements?

You can eat more carbohydrate than usual because you'll be burning much more of it. 200 grams protein, 350 grams carbohydrate (mostly complex), 100 grams fat. Something like that should do the trick, you should be able to build muscle and lose fat at the same time.

2 or 3 overreach/deload cycles and you won't recognize yourself in the mirror, make sure you take before and after pics.

[syncmaster913n]

You can eat more carbohydrate than usual because you'll be burning much more of it. 200 grams protein, 350 grams carbohydrate (mostly complex), 100 grams fat. Something like that should do the trick, you should be able to build muscle and lose fat at the same time.

2 or 3 overreach/deload cycles and you won't recognize yourself in the mirror, make sure you take before and after pics.

Alright, I'm gonna give it a shot. I'll continue with the standard setup for 1 more week just so I can get a better feel for all the exercises and rest times required between sets, and I'm giving it a go then.

1. Should I train 7 days a week with that setup, not 6?

2. On my deload week, should I not train at all, or should I still be performing D1+D2+D3 each day, 7 days a week, only doing the first set without the rest-pause sets?

3. I'm a sucker for mashed potatoes. Is it fine if all my carbs come from that + dairy?

[Kelei]

Alright, I'm gonna give it a shot. I'll continue with the standard setup for 1 more week just so I can get a better feel for all the exercises and rest times required between sets, and I'm giving it a go then.

1. Should I train 7 days a week with that setup, not 6?

2. On my deload week, should I not train at all, or should I still be performing D1+D2+D3 each day, 7 days a week, only doing the first set without the rest-pause sets?

3. I'm a sucker for mashed potatoes. Is it fine if all my carbs come from that + dairy?

1. 7 days per week.
2. Complete rest during your deload week.
3. That's fine.

Make sure you eat at least 6 whole eggs per day and at least 250 grams of meat per day.

[syncmaster913n]

Make sure you eat at least 6 whole eggs per day and at least 250 grams of meat per day.

lean chicken breast counts as meat here? or we're talking steak?

[Kelei]

lean chicken breast counts as meat here? or we're talking steak?

Chicken breast is fine, this'll allow more of your fat to come from egg yolks and dairy products.

[syncmaster913n]

Chicken breast is fine, this'll allow more of your fat to come from egg yolks and dairy products.

Ok cool. Plus it's really cheap, too.

Regarding the training itself on that setup. Say I do the squat with 175 pounds for 10 reps on a day, then the next day or 2 days later I only manage to pound out 9 reps. Do I reduce the weight for the next day on squats, or do I keep the weight the same and just pound out as many reps on the first set as I can, and still work my way up to 30 reps total for that day? Basically what I'm asking is how I should be modifying the weights (if at all) as fatigue starts taking over.

[Kelei]

Ok cool. Plus it's really cheap, too.

Regarding the training itself on that setup. Say I do the squat with 175 pounds for 10 reps on a day, then the next day or 2 days later I only manage to pound out 9 reps. Do I reduce the weight for the next day on squats, or do I keep the weight the same and just pound out as many reps on the first set as I can, and still work my way up to 30 reps total for that day? Basically what I'm asking is how I should be modifying the weights (if at all) as fatigue starts taking over.

Stick with your starting weights no matter what happens. Stick with 30 total reps as well.

[syncmaster913n]

Stick with your starting weights no matter what happens. Stick with 30 total reps as well.

Perfect, clean and simple.

Two more questions (i'm sure there'll be more later):

1. You said to up the creatine. How much? Right now I'm taking 3-4 grams in the morning and 3-4 in the evening.

2. Is it a good idea to completely sieze taking omega 3 for the duration of this thing?

Thanks for your help, saying "it's appreciated" would be an understatement.

[davo26]

Ok. I'm actually contemplating this.

Right now I'm at 17,5% BF after a very long cut (7 months), moved to a recomp around a week or so ago. You can see my cut progress pics over here: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1002677203

Do you think I could attempt this while recomping, or should I be on a bulk if I want to meet the necessary macro requirements?

great photos mate, well done. and good luck with the new monster sessions :-)

[Mr-Nathan]

anyone doing this as a full body as opposed to the 3 day version? im considering changing to full body after spending about 6 months on the 3 day version.

[syncmaster913n]

great photos mate, well done. and good luck with the new monster sessions :-)

Thanks! I hope I'll be able to stick to it. Obviously it's better to approach everything with the mindset of "I'll do it no matter what," but this does sound extreme enough that I'm not going to hold a grudge against myself if I wuss out half way through

[Kelei]

Perfect, clean and simple.

Two more questions (i'm sure there'll be more later):

1. You said to up the creatine. How much? Right now I'm taking 3-4 grams in the morning and 3-4 in the evening.

2. Is it a good idea to completely sieze taking omega 3 for the duration of this thing?

Thanks for your help, saying "it's appreciated" would be an understatement.

1. That's enough considering you're only performing 30 total reps.
2. Yes it's a good idea to cease taking fish oil during these cycles.

[syncmaster913n]

1. That's enough considering you're only performing 30 total reps.
2. Yes it's a good idea to cease taking fish oil during these cycles.

Right, cease not seize

Thanks, I guess that's all I need to know for now.

Excited as phuck

[Kelei]

Right, cease not seize

Lol, English isn't your first language? English is my third language but I think I've mastered it better than many first language English speakers lol.

[syncmaster913n]

Lol, English isn't your first language? English is my third language but I think I've mastered it better than many first language English speakers lol.

Haha no, I'm from Poland. English is a language I learned by watching Cartoon Network as a child, so while I can speak the language fluently, my spelling does need a lot of work (unfortunately there were no English subtitles in Tom & Jerry and The Flintstones, lol). English is my third language too

[landus123]

good point this is a great post by Kelei illustrating the issue:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post955202503

*copy/paste madness*

Mate you're a legend for these links, thank you!!

I THINK I get it but unsure how it was would look if doing the 6 workouts a week type training. For example if my pecs are lagging, would it look like this:

D1 flat/incline 100kg x 10 so only around 20 reps?
D2 back etc followed by the above
D3 legs etc followed by above

So I would be becoming two sets on chest daily? is that what is meant by a single?

So on the standard workout you would be doing
200 reps of flat and 200 of incline / 1 week
whereas this way you would be doing it daily and get around
60 on flat, 60 on incline?

I reckon I must have this wrong haha, can anyone clarify? and would I expect to go for my 10rm but expect that each week what I can actually lift may decrease due to the fatigue.. but my strength IS actually increasing so once I have deloaded I should with any luck be able to increase the weight?

Love this idea of overreaching, I've always thought overtraining was overly used and I remember someone saying that if someone told you that your 'important family member here' was to die in one month if you couldn't increase your bench by X amount, would you bench 1-2 times a week or everyday? Food for thought!

[syncmaster913n]

Mate you're a legend for these links, thank you!!

I THINK I get it but unsure how it was would look if doing the 6 workouts a week type training. For example if my pecs are lagging, would it look like this:

D1 flat/incline 100kg x 10 so only around 20 reps?
D2 back etc followed by the above
D3 legs etc followed by above

So I would be becoming two sets on chest daily? is that what is meant by a single?

So on the standard workout you would be doing
200 reps of flat and 200 of incline / 1 week
whereas this way you would be doing it daily and get around
60 on flat, 60 on incline?

I reckon I must have this wrong haha, can anyone clarify? and would I expect to go for my 10rm but expect that each week what I can actually lift may decrease due to the fatigue.. but my strength IS actually increasing so once I have deloaded I should with any luck be able to increase the weight?

Love this idea of overreaching, I've always thought overtraining was overly used and I remember someone saying that if someone told you that your 'important family member here' was to die in one month if you couldn't increase your bench by X amount, would you bench 1-2 times a week or everyday? Food for thought!

Thanks, though all credit should go to Kelei. I just knew were to look

Regarding your question (I'm sure Kelei will reply to you as well). He was doing singles because he was racing his friend on the bench 1 rep max. If your goal is building muscle, then you wouldn't be doing singles (1 rep); you'd be doing everything as usual (same setup / weights / reps as in the original program), only training your targeted muscle group 7 days a week for 3 weeks, and then resting that muscle group for one week.

[landus123]

Thanks, though all credit should go to Kelei. I just knew were to look

Regarding your question (I'm sure Kelei will reply to you as well). He was doing singles because he was racing his friend on the bench 1 rep max. If your goal is building muscle, then you wouldn't be doing singles (1 rep); you'd be doing everything as usual (same setup / weights / reps as in the original program), only training your targeted muscle group 7 days a week for 3 weeks, and then resting that muscle group for one week.

Ah I've got you now. I thought singles meant a single set of an exercise haha. I searched for singles online... but it bought up all sorts of bad things (joke :P)

Right so effectively it would be a bit like this: (HYPOTHETICALLY)
D1 with 100kg flat/incline (50 reps each) 12 reps
D2 with 100kg flat/incline 11 reps
D3 legs with chest 11 reps
D1 with chest 12 reps
D2 back with chest 9 reps (perhaps fatigue is hitting me on this day)
D3 legs with chest 9 reps
etc etc etc.... so I will probably start to see the reps reducing, but I would keep the weight the same, and after my full week deload I would be aiming for 105/110kg bench?

[syncmaster913n]

Ah I've got you now. I thought singles meant a single set of an exercise haha. I searched for singles online... but it bought up all sorts of bad things (joke :P)

Right so effectively it would be a bit like this: (HYPOTHETICALLY)
D1 with 100kg flat/incline (50 reps each) 12 reps
D2 with 100kg flat/incline 11 reps
D3 legs with chest 11 reps
D1 with chest 12 reps
D2 back with chest 9 reps (perhaps fatigue is hitting me on this day)
D3 legs with chest 9 reps
etc etc etc.... so I will probably start to see the reps reducing, but I would keep the weight the same, and after my full week deload I would be aiming for 105/110kg bench?

Yeah, that's how I imagine it would look as well, though I have no clue how the actual deterioration of performance will look like from day to day. Basically though you do both chest exercises like you said, 7 days a week. If you pound out 12 reps on the first set then add a little weight on the next day. If (or rather... when) your performance on the first set starts to decline, you keep the weight the same regardless of how many reps you can perform on that first set, while still pushing for 50 reps total for each exercise (30 in my case).

After your deload week.. I've no clue what to expect. Which is exactly what I want to find out

[syncmaster913n]

Kelei, regarding curls. I don't have a preacher curl add on for my bench at home, and for some reason I don't find incline dumbbell curls comfortable (I can't get a very good mind-muscle connection). I therefore do standing barbell curls, only leaning with my back against a wall to eliminate swinging. I've recorded a video below. Is that OK?

[landus123]

Yeah, that's how I imagine it would look as well, though I have no clue how the actual deterioration of performance will look like from day to day. Basically though you do both chest exercises like you said, 7 days a week. If you pound out 12 reps on the first set then add a little weight on the next exercise. If (or rather... when) your performance on the first set starts to decline, you keep the weight the same regardless of how many reps you can perform on that first set, while still pushing for 50 reps total for each exercise (30 in my case).

After your deload week.. I'm no clue what to expect. Which is exactly what I want to find out

Right right OK cool I've got it now, sounds really good! I reckon after doing that much work we should easily be able to add weight; I think I would anyway because if you were previously doing 11-12 reps with it, it makes sense we'd get at least 6-8 with 2-10kg more.

[syncmaster913n]

Right right OK cool I've got it now, sounds really good! I reckon after doing that much work we should easily be able to add weight; I think I would anyway because if you were previously doing 11-12 reps with it, it makes sense we'd get at least 6-8 with 2-10kg more.

Pretty much. Otherwise it would turn out to be a waste of time I guess (which I don't believe could be the case, lol).