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  1. #2011
    Registered User Mr-Nathan's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kelei View Post
    Take 2 teaspoons per day split into 2 doses (1 teaspoon taken twice per day). You should take your creatine with food, I take 1 teaspoon with my breakfast and 1 teaspoon with my post workout meal (dinner). This should provide you with 8-10 grams of creatine daily which is a good dose for people who train with a lot of volume.

    You don't need to cycle creatine and you don't need to load.
    Why do many people say you should cycle it? Why do you feel this is not necessary?
    Any recommended brands (available in UK). I do not take any other supplements.
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  2. #2012
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    Originally Posted by Kelei View Post
    Take 2 teaspoons per day split into 2 doses (1 teaspoon taken twice per day). You should take your creatine with food, I take 1 teaspoon with my breakfast and 1 teaspoon with my post workout meal (dinner). This should provide you with 8-10 grams of creatine daily which is a good dose for people who train with a lot of volume.

    You don't need to cycle creatine and you don't need to load.
    8-10g?!

    I've been taking 3-5g per day (1 scoop) since August
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  3. #2013
    Registered User Kelei's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mr-Nathan View Post
    Why do many people say you should cycle it? Why do you feel this is not necessary?
    Any recommended brands (available in UK). I do not take any other supplements.
    The people who say you should cycle it simply have no idea what they're talking about. Once creatine reaches saturation point within your muscles all you need to do is continue taking enough creatine to maintain saturation. If you reduce your dosage your creatine levels within your muscles will begin to fall, when you start taking creatine again you'll saturate your muscles again.

    All cycling does is temporarily reduce your muscle creatine levels, there's absolutely no benefit to be obtained by doing this.

    I'm not sure which brands are available in the UK and which source will be most cost effective (due to shipping costs etc) so you'll have to investigate that yourself. I can tell you what you're looking for though, you're looking for creapure creatine monohydrate (micronized simply means it mixes better but apart from that there's no difference between micronized and standard creatine).
    Last edited by Kelei; 11-07-2012 at 08:08 AM.
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  4. #2014
    Registered User Kelei's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by blestsystem View Post
    8-10g?!

    I've been taking 3-5g per day (1 scoop) since August
    Start taking another scoop, 1 scoop/teaspoon with breakfast and 1 sccop/teaspoon with your post workout meal or dinner works well.
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  5. #2015
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    Enough lurking around for me,I'm starting this routine as of today.It will be logged in continuation of my current log. On my way to D1,I benched yesterday lol.
    Last edited by lajoo; 11-07-2012 at 10:16 AM.
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  6. #2016
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    Originally Posted by lajoo View Post
    Enough lurking around for me,I'm starting this routine as of today.It will be logged in continuation of my current log. On my way to D1,I benched yesterday lol.


    Excellent...
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  7. #2017
    Registered User Mr-Nathan's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kelei View Post
    The people who say you should cycle it simply have no idea what they're talking about. Once creatine reaches saturation point within your muscles all you need to do is continue taking enough creatine to maintain saturation. If you reduce your dosage your creatine levels within your muscles will begin to fall, when you start taking creatine again you'll saturate your muscles again.

    All cycling does is temporarily reduce your muscle creatine levels, there's absolutely no benefit to be obtained by doing this.

    I'm not sure which brands are available in the UK and which source will be most cost effective (due to shipping costs etc) so you'll have to investigate that yourself. I can tell you what you're looking for though, you're looking for creapure creatine monohydrate (micronized simply means it mixes better but apart from that there's no difference between micronized and standard creatine).
    Thanks, and there is no risk of harming myself by not cycling? So many people talk about kidney damage etc.
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  8. #2018
    Registered User _XYDREX_'s Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mr-Nathan View Post
    Thanks, and there is no risk of harming myself by not cycling? So many people talk about kidney damage etc.
    Reasonable dosages of creatine don't load up the kidneys much at all & are perfectly fine for healthy ppl who drink enough water. And higher dosages (which may cause noticeable load on the kidneys) don't offer much additional gains anyway so are pointless.

    Regarding cycling, my opinion is that marketing will introduce such ideas to give the supp a certain drug-like aura to it, to increase its perceived effectiveness. People will notice some strength loss from reducing their creatine levels ..... which reminds them repeatedly that they need to continue to be a long-term customer. Otherwise they may take it for granted. If they stop only once (for whatever reason), there may be another excuse that the strength drop could be attributed to via coincidence. If they keep cycling, they will be convinced each & every time that a drop in creatine levels reduces their strength, so they will never stop permanently.
    Last edited by _XYDREX_; 11-07-2012 at 12:04 PM.
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  9. #2019
    Registered User Mr-Nathan's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by _XYDREX_ View Post
    Reasonable dosages of creatine don't load up the kidneys much at all & are perfectly fine for healthy ppl who drink enough water. And higher dosages (which may cause noticeable load on the kidneys) don't offer much additional gains anyway so are pointless.

    Regarding cycling, my opinion is that marketing will introduce such ideas to give the supp a certain drug-like aura to it, to increase its perceived effectiveness. People will notice some strength loss from reducing their creatine levels ..... which reminds them repeatedly that they need to continue to be a long-term customer. Otherwise they may take it for granted. If they stop only once (for whatever reason), there may be another excuse that the strength drop could be attributed to via coincidence. If they keep cycling, they will be convinced each & every time that a drop in creatine levels reduces their strength, so they will never stop permanently.
    yeh but why would they say to cycle and stay on permanently as opposed to saying stay on permanently with no cycling, as this would lead to more sales. And why only cycle creatine, and not protein powder too. see what im saying? obviously protein and creatine are different, but do you think the supplement companies are basically making a bigger issue out of creatine, and making protein powder seem more normal and acceptable?

    This the stuff right?
    http://www.myprotein.com/uk/products/creapure
    Last edited by Mr-Nathan; 11-07-2012 at 01:02 PM.
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  10. #2020
    Minister for Propoganda gomez26's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mr-Nathan View Post
    yeh but why would they say to cycle and stay on permanently as opposed to saying stay on permanently with no cycling, as this would lead to more sales. And why only cycle creatine, and not protein powder too. see what im saying? obviously protein and creatine are different, but do you think the supplement companies are basically making a bigger issue out of creatine, and making protein powder seem more normal and acceptable?
    if 1 guy takes 5g a day everyday while another guy cycles 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,0,1,2.... etc they will both be averaging 5g a day & sales will be exactly the same. the cycling guy will experience a drop in strength each & every time he goes off it & slowly starts up while the constant guy wont. thats the point he is making. if the constant guy were to stop, statistically there is a greater chance he may blame the drop on something else by pure coincidence, while the cycling guy will beyond all doubt know its the creatine because it happens every time. this is useful for marketing psychology to validate effectiveness.
    protein is protein. its just a food macro. creatine is a bit more mystic, while its found naturally in meat in smalll amounts, many ppl dont now this. cycling makes it sound more potent & technical.
    "Though the concept is not scientifically validated in detail (it should be considered as a hypothesis rather than a scientific theory), it is useful from a practical standpoint. When training athletes, it is impossible to wait until scientific research provides all of the necessary knowledge." Vladmir M. Zatsiorsky, Ph.D.
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  11. #2021
    Registered User lajoo's Avatar
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    Did D1 today,Awesome workout,loved the volume.Got a few questions

    1-With DB overhead extension(one arm) I didn't really feel it in the triceps and i was only feeling fatigued in my shoulders, is this normal and should i keep with it?

    2-I have a chest supported row machine at my gym with 3 different grips:



    Which one of the handles should i use? and if you suggest the outer one,should i do it underhand or overhand?
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  12. #2022
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    So swim season started this week..... It is the sport I primarily train for, so I'm not sure what will happen. Swim practice is everyday at 4 a.m, and that combined with school work leaves little room/energy for the gym. I'll try to get in a workout whenever I have time, but realistically I doubt I'll be able to have consistency. Do you have any advice? Maybe to just not sweat it so much and just pick up regular gym trips after the season ends (February)? I made some good gains on this routine in the past 2 months, so I am kinda sad to see it go, but I guess I can pick it back up in a few months if needed.

    Also, due to budgets I find myself taking only creatine regularly, and not so much the vitamins because my diet is pretty solid. Would you recommend continued use of creatine throughout swim season even though I will be for the most part not doing any heavy lifting? That is, if I take off from this routine.

    Any advice is welcomed, thanks.
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  13. #2023
    Registered User Kelei's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mr-Nathan View Post
    Thanks, and there is no risk of harming myself by not cycling? So many people talk about kidney damage etc.
    10 grams per day poses no risk at all, even if you take it indefinitely.

    Originally Posted by Mr-Nathan View Post
    Yes but you should try to buy in bulk, it'll save you some cash. Different brands have different prices so I suggest taking some time to look around for the best deal.

    Originally Posted by lajoo View Post
    Enough lurking around for me,I'm starting this routine as of today.It will be logged in continuation of my current log. On my way to D1,I benched yesterday lol.
    Sounds good.
    Last edited by Kelei; 11-07-2012 at 09:47 PM.
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  14. #2024
    Registered User Kelei's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lajoo View Post
    Did D1 today,Awesome workout,loved the volume.Got a few questions

    With DB overhead extension(one arm) I didn't really feel it in the triceps and i was only feeling fatigued in my shoulders, is this normal and should i keep with it?

    Which one of the handles should i use? and if you suggest the outer one,should i do it underhand or overhand?
    You could try overhead rope extensions instead, I posted the video a few pages back, you know what I'm talking about?

    I prefer a neutral grip (hammer grip) when performing chest-supported rows, if you prefer to use the other grips you must use an overhand grip.

    Originally Posted by nappermaster View Post
    So swim season started this week..... It is the sport I primarily train for, so I'm not sure what will happen. Swim practice is everyday at 4 a.m, and that combined with school work leaves little room/energy for the gym. I'll try to get in a workout whenever I have time, but realistically I doubt I'll be able to have consistency. Do you have any advice? Maybe to just not sweat it so much and just pick up regular gym trips after the season ends (February)? I made some good gains on this routine in the past 2 months, so I am kinda sad to see it go, but I guess I can pick it back up in a few months if needed.

    Also, due to budgets I find myself taking only creatine regularly, and not so much the vitamins because my diet is pretty solid. Would you recommend continued use of creatine throughout swim season even though I will be for the most part not doing any heavy lifting? That is, if I take off from this routine.

    Any advice is welcomed, thanks.
    There's no point taking creatine if you're not going to be lifting weights. You could try using the full-body routine that Jooceman is using and try to squeeze in a workout whenever possible, 2-3 full body workouts per week is better than nothing.
    Last edited by Kelei; 11-07-2012 at 09:48 PM.
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  15. #2025
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    Just read a large portion of the thread, very impressed Kelei. Here are some of my questions:

    - Not sure if this has been asked, but is it possible for me to do sumo deadlift instead of romanian? Both hit the hamstrings pretty hard, and I've grown accustomed to doing sumo style, with very good form.

    - What can I do instead of one-arm DB tricep extensions? It usually bothers my shoulder.

    - If I cannot do 50 pullups and then 50 chin-ups, should I lower just those excersises to 30? Or should I change the whole routine since I probably won't be used to the volume and I'm definitely a newer intermediate lifter.

    - Why did you choose preacher curls over say, standing db curls?

    - Should I do the lateral raises seated so that I don't cheat or lean forward/back?

    - My gym doesnt have a standing calf raise, what can I do instead?

    Thanks again Kelei, I really appreciate the help.
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  16. #2026
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    Originally Posted by gman44 View Post
    Just read a large portion of the thread, very impressed Kelei. Here are some of my questions:

    - Not sure if this has been asked, but is it possible for me to do sumo deadlift instead of romanian? Both hit the hamstrings pretty hard, and I've grown accustomed to doing sumo style, with very good form.

    - What can I do instead of one-arm DB tricep extensions? It usually bothers my shoulder.

    - If I cannot do 50 pullups and then 50 chin-ups, should I lower just those excersises to 30? Or should I change the whole routine since I probably won't be used to the volume and I'm definitely a newer intermediate lifter.

    - Why did you choose preacher curls over say, standing db curls?

    - Should I do the lateral raises seated so that I don't cheat or lean forward/back?

    - My gym doesnt have a standing calf raise, what can I do instead?

    Thanks again Kelei, I really appreciate the help.
    Romanian deadlifts are better, you really should learn them instead. You can perform overhead rope extensions. If 50 reps is too much you can reduce your reps to 40 or even 30. Preacher curls prevent cheating, incline dumbbell curls are a good alternative. There's not much difference between standing and seated side laterals, go with whatever feels best to you. Put a barbell across your back (like a back squat) and perform standing calf raises, once you get very strong you might need to switch to single leg calf raises so that you're not supporting too much weight on your back.
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    Hey one more question about stretching, i know you say not to do it right before a workout, can you do it inbetween sets? So while im having my 5 minute brake after RDL's, can i do some hamstring stretching? I havent started the routine yet but i know my hamstrings are going to be dead from that excercise, and it might loosen them up by the time i get to leg curls, so just wondering. Cheers
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    Originally Posted by Mr-Nathan View Post
    yeh but why would they say to cycle and stay on permanently as opposed to saying stay on permanently with no cycling, as this would lead to more sales. And why only cycle creatine, and not protein powder too. see what im saying? obviously protein and creatine are different, but do you think the supplement companies are basically making a bigger issue out of creatine, and making protein powder seem more normal and acceptable?

    This the stuff right?
    http://www.myprotein.com/uk/products/creapure
    Bro you should get the Creatine Mono hydrate from Myprotein, its much cheaper as creapure is like a branded creatine from germany, Creatine Mono is fine and about £11.29 for 1kg (half the price), http://www.myprotein.com/uk/products...ne_monohydrate

    PS Use my code for discount MP391512
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  19. #2029
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    Originally Posted by Kelei View Post
    You could try overhead rope extensions instead, I posted the video a few pages back, you know what I'm talking about?

    I prefer a neutral grip (hammer grip) when performing chest-supported rows, if you prefer to use the other grips you must use an overhand grip.
    Yea but i don't like ropes that much,I'll stick with db extensions for a while,if it still bothered my shoulders i'll change it.

    Neutral grip it is.
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  20. #2030
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    So do you mean 50 reps per exercise each or per body part?
    For example like
    50 bench press
    50 flys

    Or

    25 bench
    25 flys?
    Looks like a solid program I'm definitely gonna look into it more
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  21. #2031
    Registered User wisdommaster1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JustDiesel11 View Post
    So do you mean 50 reps per exercise each or per body part?
    For example like
    50 bench press
    50 flys

    Or

    25 bench
    25 flys?
    Looks like a solid program I'm definitely gonna look into it more
    50 for each exercise
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    Thanks for all of the help kelei, one last question for you. What at your thoughts on creatine ethyl ester? I only ask because I have a full tub of it, although I can still buy creapure if necessary.
    Last edited by gman44; 11-08-2012 at 12:18 PM.
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  23. #2033
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    Hey when im doing over head tricep extension i feel it alot in my shoulders, dunno why, is there any other excerise that can replace it ?
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    Registered User gman44's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TheOne92 View Post
    Hey when im doing over head tricep extension i feel it alot in my shoulders, dunno why, is there any other excerise that can replace it ?
    Read post 2026
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  25. #2035
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    Hi kelei, im unable to do pullups after chinups, is it alright to do pulldowns untill i get stronger ? i probebly could do pullups but i would hit like 5 reps on the first set, if you still think pushing myself on pullups is better il go for it.

    also is it alright to switch front squats with hack squats ?

    cheers!!!

    and what about direct traps & ab work ?
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  26. #2036
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    Originally Posted by Frame2Big View Post
    Hi kelei, im unable to do pullups after chinups, is it alright to do pulldowns untill i get stronger ? i probebly could do pullups but i would hit like 5 reps on the first set, if you still think pushing myself on pullups is better il go for it.

    also is it alright to switch front squats with hack squats ?

    cheers!!!

    and what about direct traps & ab work ?

    Wait 6 months on this routine before adding trap work

    You can do the ab-wheel for an ab exercise


    Stick with the pull ups/chin ups

    whatever number you get on your first set, multiply by 5 and do that many.

    for example if you only get 5 pull ups on your first set, do a total of 25 pull ups.
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  27. #2037
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    Originally Posted by chubmiester View Post
    Hey one more question about stretching, i know you say not to do it right before a workout, can you do it inbetween sets? So while im having my 5 minute brake after RDL's, can i do some hamstring stretching? I havent started the routine yet but i know my hamstrings are going to be dead from that excercise, and it might loosen them up by the time i get to leg curls, so just wondering. Cheers
    Don't stretch before or during a workout, stretch after you've finished or at some other time during the day/night.

    Originally Posted by gman44 View Post
    Thanks for all of the help kelei, one last question for you. What at your thoughts on creatine ethyl ester? I only ask because I have a full tub of it, although I can still buy creapure if necessary.
    Ethyl ester is a gimmick product that's supposd to have a better absorption, only it doesn't. The only creatine you need is creatine monohydrate, you can get a micronized version which mixes better in water but apart from that there's no difference between standard monohydrate and micronized monohydrate.

    If any of you are wondering why I suggest getting creapure creatine monohydrate it's because it's 100% pure and made in Germany. Nearly all other non-creapure creatine comes from China and is notorius for being contaminated (sodium, creatinine, dicyandiamide, and dihydrotriazine to name a few contaminants).

    Originally Posted by Frame2Big View Post
    also is it alright to switch front squats with hack squats? and what about direct traps & ab work ?
    Front squats are better but hack squats are a decent alternative. Direct trap work isn't needed for most people, side lateral raises actually develop your traps quite a lot and you also get some indirect trap work during RDL. If you're not happy with your traps after 6 months you can add some shrugs to D1.

    I perform ab wheel rollouts (or barbell rollouts) for direct ab work, I consider ths optional so that's why I never included it in the orginal program write up although next time I write up a refined version (including a FAQ section lol) of the routine I'll include direct ab work because it's obvious that most people prefer some direct ab work included in their workouts.
    Last edited by Kelei; 11-08-2012 at 10:00 PM.
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  28. #2038
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    What are the rep numbers for ab wheel roll-outs? 1st set 10, then up to 50 in 3s like the rest?

    think im going to start adding them to d3 because my abs are becoming invisible and i'm almost becoming self conscious about it lol.

    have you uploaded a vid i've missed regarding form?

    thanks
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  29. #2039
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    Originally Posted by Mr-Nathan View Post
    What are the rep numbers for ab wheel roll-outs? 1st set 10, then up to 50 in 3s like the rest?

    think im going to start adding them to d3 because my abs are becoming invisible and i'm almost becoming self conscious about it lol.

    have you uploaded a vid i've missed regarding form?

    thanks
    I add weight once I can complete 20 reps in my first set, I rest-pause my way to 100 total reps. You can stop at 50 total reps. Are you gaining weight?
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  30. #2040
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    Originally Posted by Kelei View Post
    I add weight once I can complete 20 reps in my first set, I rest-pause my way to 100 total reps. You can stop at 50 total reps. Are you gaining weight?
    so should I add weight once I can do 12 f I'm only doing 50?

    I think so, but reaaaal slow. I've been hovering around 70kg for months now.
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