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  1. #1
    Skinny Phaggot VictoryBrah's Avatar
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    Bulking on keto?

    Hey guys is it possible to bulk while on keto? Like say for instance you are eating more than your maintenance calories, whilst still keeping low on carbs, would you gain muscle? or does ketosis reduce protein synthesis :/ thanks
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    Registered User Carus's Avatar
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    Very few people see results bulking on keto. I personally wouldn't recommend it, especially for a 15 year old.

    Carbs are not evil, just be responsible with them when bulking.
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    Originally Posted by victor1996 View Post
    Hey guys is it possible to bulk while on keto? Like say for instance you are eating more than your maintenance calories, whilst still keeping low on carbs, would you gain muscle? or does ketosis reduce protein synthesis :/ thanks
    I want more insight on this to.
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  4. #4
    Registered User Javilionaire's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by victor1996 View Post
    Hey guys is it possible to bulk while on keto? Like say for instance you are eating more than your maintenance calories, whilst still keeping low on carbs, would you gain muscle? or does ketosis reduce protein synthesis :/ thanks
    Not a good idea. Lack of glycogen in your muscles will inhibit progress.
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  5. #5
    Registered User Blackjack68's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Javilionaire View Post
    Not a good idea. Lack of glycogen in your muscles will inhibit progress.
    Not having glycogen won't inhibit growth, only how many reps you can get during a set, that's why we have TKD and CKD.

    SKD while bulking would be a mistake, but there is nothing about ketosis that restricts growth. Any issues with depressed leptin levels should be solved (again) with TKD/CKD, and the "I need to spike insulin" thing is total broscience. That said, TKD/CKD may not be "optimal" for bulking. I honestly don't think there has ever been a study on it.

    **edit (I typed something wrong) - Since I don't know of any studies on TKD bulking, I default to Lyle McDonald, whom IIRC used the term "may not be optimal". Poor memory at this age
    Last edited by Blackjack68; 07-07-2012 at 12:33 PM.
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  6. #6
    Registered User Javilionaire's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Blackjack68 View Post
    Not having glycogen won't inhibit growth, only how many reps you can get during a set, that's why we have TKD and CKD.

    SKD while bulking would be a mistake, but there is nothing about ketosis that restricts growth. Any issues with depressed leptin levels should be solved (again) with TKD/CKD, and the "I need to spike insulin" thing is total broscience. That said, TKD/CKD may (or may not) be "optimal" for bulking. I honestly don't think there has ever been a study on it.
    I was under the impression he wanted to do CKD, which is why I said that.
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  7. #7
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    Originally Posted by victor1996 View Post
    Hey guys is it possible to bulk while on keto? Like say for instance you are eating more than your maintenance calories, whilst still keeping low on carbs, would you gain muscle? or does ketosis reduce protein synthesis :/ thanks
    The real question is: "How do I bulk while remaining in lipostasis?" Since "keto" is the misnomer for what should be called "sustained/adapted lipolysis" let's go into the biochemistry of lipostasis and lipogenesis. Lipogenesis is an adaptive process, just like lipolysis is. Prevent the adaption, prevent the lipogenesis. The adaptive process is the rising of anorexigenic (fed state) hormonal resistance. This is caused by two things: chronic overcompensation of glycogen, and chronic consumption of carb-fat combinations, causing hyperinsulinemia. Besides these two things, you also have to eat a caloric excess, which is facillitated by the rising resistance levels. You can switch over to a high carb nutritional plan, but you're possibly setting yourself up for a battle against this rising resistance, the severity determined by your genetics. If your leptin/insulin resistance levels rise easily, it'll be much tougher.

    So, its a matter of eating as many carbs as possible, without allowing a readaptation into lipogenesis. There is no need to remain in lipolysis, just prevent the readaptation. There are different ways to accomplish this, the concept of "carb cycling" is good, and is easy to follow. Berardi's "The Science of Nutrient Timing" provides a good strategy also, within the context of daily macronutrient intake. Its a matter of adequate protein, prevention of lipogenic readaptation, and a reasonable, not massive excess of calories. That and proper training.
    I'll take arrogance and the inevitable hubris over self-doubt and lack of confidence, anyday.......
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  8. #8
    Registered User Brucelats's Avatar
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    Good topic, i wanted to ask the same OP.

    But i have 1 more question. If i decide to go on keto and my maintenance (with activities) is around 3k cals. Do i need to go to cal deficit and look for 2500 cals on daily basis or keep the same number of cals since i am on keto which uses fat for energy.


    Ty brahs
    ...afterwards, I asked him how he ran that fast, and he told me that it is all in the motivation you light in your mind... imagining your own world and blotting out everything else.

    So i asked, "What do you imagine?"
    He replied, "What do you?"
    I told him to run faster, I like to imagine that i am being chased by wolf.
    He smiles and says, "In my mind, I am one that is chasing the wolf."

    That was the day I started to understand...
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  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by Brucelats View Post
    Good topic, i wanted to ask the same OP.

    But i have 1 more question. If i decide to go on keto and my maintenance (with activities) is around 3k cals. Do i need to go to cal deficit and look for 2500 cals on daily basis or keep the same number of cals since i am on keto which uses fat for energy.


    Ty brahs
    Keto doesn't defy the laws, you still need a deficit to lose fat
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  10. #10
    Registered User Brucelats's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SwoleMe View Post
    Keto doesn't defy the laws, you still need a deficit to lose fat
    Ty m8. But this thing about bulking on keto is rly interesting. I'll try that **** when i go on bulking and see for month or so will i get some results.
    ...afterwards, I asked him how he ran that fast, and he told me that it is all in the motivation you light in your mind... imagining your own world and blotting out everything else.

    So i asked, "What do you imagine?"
    He replied, "What do you?"
    I told him to run faster, I like to imagine that i am being chased by wolf.
    He smiles and says, "In my mind, I am one that is chasing the wolf."

    That was the day I started to understand...
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  11. #11
    Team MuscleTech Rep/EMT-B BlueRev's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Carus View Post
    Very few people see results bulking on keto. I personally wouldn't recommend it, especially for a 15 year old.

    Carbs are not evil, just be responsible with them when bulking.
    Shut up.


    Anyways @ op yes you can bulk on keto, But its a much more lean bulk. Muscle takes a long time to build but when you use carbs to build it you usually hold a little water and gain more weight.

    To get best results on keto bulk you should TKD and CKD at same time, take in pre workout carbs and then carb up once a week.

    Originally Posted by SwoleMe View Post
    Keto doesn't defy the laws, you still need a deficit to lose fat
    This is true but some foods take more calories to digest then others. Keto and a carb based diet at the exact same calories over time you will be leaner on keto for this reason.
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  12. #12
    Everyday=5/3/1+GPP+IFCTKD Atavis's Avatar
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    I suggest the search function. Good protocols have been laid out a few times.
    "Arterial plaque is primarily composed of unsaturated fats particularly polyunsaturated ones." (Felton, C V, et al, Lancet, 1994, 344:1195)

    How to bulk: http://70sbig.com/food/

    Diet = http://i52.tinypic.com/21bhop.png
    ...or something like this daily. Problem? ;)

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  13. #13
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    Im still learning on it, so Im not 100% but keto and bulk really dont go hand in hand. You could possibly gain or just lean out on TKD but you're in a caloric deficit on all forms of keto. Im doing CKD to keep what muscle I have while dropping body fat. In a month or 2 when I decide to bulk, I will drop keto all together.

    Sure, you can try for bulking on keto, but thats quite an unnecessary battle.
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    and the "I need to spike insulin" thing is total broscience. ... copy pasted this from up above....

    You don't have to spike insulin I suppose to build muscle, but you are saying spiking insulin isn't helpful? Your post is kinda stupid without putting more context around it, because insulin spikes are exactly what people love on normal diets when muscle gain is their goal, and it does have more muscle growth potential then if you didn't spike your insulin.. just ask anybody who uses any kind of hormones. A natural spike without exogenous insulin might not be that big of a deal though, except when compared to none.
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    Registered User Blackjack68's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FlexManlet55 View Post
    but you are saying spiking insulin isn't helpful...
    Without any regard to AAS, I am not saying in any way that some insulin isn't helpful. What I was saying is that a person doesn't need to take in a lot of carbs to adequately uptake nutrients into muscle. Even protein with no carbs at all will cause a sufficient insulin response. More insulin doesn't necessarily mean more nutrient uptake.

    My broscience comment is aimed squarely at the guys who think they have to add a bunch of carbs to their postworkout shake to get any benefit.
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    Tried to bulk on CKD for a 12 week period and no, I did not find it nearly as effective as a traditional bulk.

    If you are going to bulk, then really bulk. Bring in the carbs and don't be scared of the extra fat gain. You can come back to Keto and cut it off later.
    I hate haters
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    Team MuscleTech Rep/EMT-B BlueRev's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BWC101 View Post
    Tried to bulk on CKD for a 12 week period and no, I did not find it nearly as effective as a traditional bulk.

    If you are going to bulk, then really bulk. Bring in the carbs and don't be scared of the extra fat gain. You can come back to Keto and cut it off later.
    \
    Because you were trying to gain muscle too fast.
    Average solid muscle gain is around 10-12 lbs a year on LEan gains. Frank zane suggests trying to never go over this per year.
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    t
    Originally Posted by BlueRev View Post
    \
    Because you were trying to gain muscle too fast.
    Average solid muscle gain is around 10-12 lbs a year on LEan gains. Frank zane suggests trying to never go over this per year.
    Yeah, but age does play a big role in it muscle gain. As well as years of training properly.

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    I'm currently cutting down but I really hope I can get SOME results bulking on Keto. I've faced depression and gaining no progress for years while using carbs. I've made more progress in the past 3 months with keto than I have over the past 5 years eating 300+ carbs a day. Real envious of you guys who can eat tons of carbs with no issue. For me it always causes blood sugar/mood issues.
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  20. #20
    Rage Leadreign's Avatar
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    TKD if you want a bit of gain. But I just dont get why there are so many threads of people wanting to bulk on a fat loss diet. If people want to gain good mass, choose a bulking diet. When you gain desired muscle mass, skip on down Keto Blvd to drop access fat and preserve said gained muscles.
    OR
    Get a hotel on Keto Blvd and stay awhile. Drop some fat with the rest of us, then switch up the diet and BECOME ARNOLD ARRRHHHHAHH GET TO THE CHOPPA.
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  21. #21
    Registered User Goatfishtoo's Avatar
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    It's definitely not the most efficient way to bulk but I wouldn't say it's impossible. I also tried bulking on a CKD and the results were really sub par and it just wasn't worth it honestly. I'd just go with a traditional bulking strategy.
    B.S. in Nutrition and Food Science
    McNeese State University

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  22. #22
    is recovering gijoe985's Avatar
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    I've gained muscle while on keto. Take a look at the Ultimate Diet 2.0. That's what I am about to go back on. Though if you read into it, it involves many more carbs than CKD, which is why it works (for gaining).

    In general I'd have to agree with the idea of CKD for cutting, get nice and low and then do like Zone macros for bulking (40/40/20) and keep it clean. Shoot for .5lb a week maybe and monitor your fat gains. Tweak things as necessary. Then back to CKD when you hit a fat limit you find acceptable.
    Life is like a roller coaster. There are ups and downs. Time to start climbing again!
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  23. #23
    Rage Leadreign's Avatar
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    Talking

    Everyone should replace the word 'keto' with CKD or TKD. I'm sure that'll help clear a few things up
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