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  1. #1
    Registered User vancityrolla's Avatar
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    type 1 and type 2 muscle fibers

    I have heard soooo many different things about training for power/strength/hypertrophy...Im trying to find out if it is possible to train for strength/hypertrophy without losing power? I have been training power for a few years and now want to add some size to my legs (mainly calfs) every since I started to train for hypertrophy I noticed that my power is not as good as it used to be. I thought that power = force x velocity??? so by increasing my strength (force) shouldn't I be increasing my power output at the same time? can training change your muscle fibers?
    Last edited by vancityrolla; 06-03-2012 at 09:38 PM.
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  2. #2
    Banned TheCoon69's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by vancityrolla View Post
    I have herd soooo many different things about training for power/strength/hypertrophy...Im trying to find out if it is possible to train for strength/hypertrophy without losing power? I have been training power for a few years and now want to add some size to my legs (mainly calfs) every since I started to train for hypertrophy I noticed that my power is not as good as it used to be. I thought that power = force x velocity??? so by increasing my strength (force) shouldn't I be increasing my power output at the same time? can training change your muscle fibers?
    lolwut?
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  3. #3
    feel good, wheel good hockeyd13's Avatar
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    There is an inverse relationship between muscle force and velocity. This means that there is actually a peak power as a function of force and velocity. As your muscles become larger, it negatively impacts the velocity that your muscle can generate. You can check out a nifty graphical representation over at wikipedia. I couldn't link in the image, but just google "muscle force velocity relationship".

    As for you're training, you're going to have to pick an outcome. The body's adaptations are just that specific. That's why you don't really see many top-tiered athletes with muscle bulk on the scale of top-tiered body builders. You can work on both at the same time, but you may see your gains taper off. If you need the speed and power for a specific athletic activity, what you should do is periodize your program. Focus on the strength/size aspects in the off-season, and as you approach the season, shift towards a power/speed based program a month or so out.

    It's thought that there is muscle fiber adaptation depending on your training. I think it's a type IIb to type IIa conversion, but don't quote me on that. I'm not sure there's a scientific consensus on whether fibers actually change or not.
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  4. #4
    Registered User vancityrolla's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hockeyd13 View Post
    There is an inverse relationship between muscle force and velocity. This means that there is actually a peak power as a function of force and velocity. As your muscles become larger, it negatively impacts the velocity that your muscle can generate. You can check out a nifty graphical representation over at wikipedia. I couldn't link in the image, but just google "muscle force velocity relationship".

    As for you're training, you're going to have to pick an outcome. The body's adaptations are just that specific. That's why you don't really see many top-tiered athletes with muscle bulk on the scale of top-tiered body builders. You can work on both at the same time, but you may see your gains taper off. If you need the speed and power for a specific athletic activity, what you should do is periodize your program. Focus on the strength/size aspects in the off-season, and as you approach the season, shift towards a power/speed based program a month or so out.

    It's thought that there is muscle fiber adaptation depending on your training. I think it's a type IIb to type IIa conversion, but don't quote me on that. I'm not sure there's a scientific consensus on whether fibers actually change or not.
    thanks for your reply, thats what I thought also just wanted to get some more opinions on this.
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  5. #5
    community gym PT KyleAaron's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hockeyd13 View Post
    There is an inverse relationship between muscle force and velocity. This means that there is actually a peak power as a function of force and velocity. As your muscles become larger, it negatively impacts the velocity that your muscle can generate.
    Of course, this is why sprinters are never very muscular, and why superheavyheight weightlifters are notoriously slow during the snatch.

    "Musclebound" is the myth you're trying to describe using fancy words. Please don't recycle myths that were busted in the 1950s, they were buried for a reason.

    OP, it's not clear what you imagine "power" is, or why you believe you need it. In physics

    energy = Work done = force x distance

    That is, lifting 100kg over 2m (as in a snatch from ground the overhead) is twice as much work as lifting 50kg over 2m. To understand this, try to snatch your max deadlift.

    Power = energy / time

    That is, lifting 100kg 1m (as in a deadlift) in 1 second is ten times as powerful as lifting 100kg 1m in 10 seconds. This, incidentally, is why "power"lifting is misnamed; the quicker lifts are more powerful in physics terms.

    Ultimately, the person who can lift more weight over a great distance more quickly is more powerful. This is why sprinters get trained with cleans, snatches and so on - not because they need to put big weights over their heads, but because doing so increases their overall power - so that they can put out a lot of force from their body in a short time, ie run fast.

    Do you need to be able to move a lot of weight over a great distance quickly? Are you a pole vaulter, sprinter or the like? First tell us your capabilities and goals, only then can we tell you how to train. Put these capabilities and goals in plain english, don't worry about these abstract qualities of "power" or "type II muscle fibres" or whatever. "Fitness" means the ability to do a task. What task do you want to do?
    Elite coaching is about getting the last 5% out of a person's performance, personal training is about getting the first 50%.

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  6. #6
    Training For Chest Hair rdferguson's Avatar
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    A power athlete will often have a program that actually focuses more on hypertrophy in the off-season, then the hypertrophy training will lead into max strength as they draw a bit closer to competition, and then max strength will lead into power in the last phases before competition season begins. However, in order for this flow of things to work, to a large extent the athlete will attempt to treat his/her hypertrophy training and max strength training as if it were power training. While bodybuilders might seek a pump and do their hypertrophy training slow and controlled, the power athlete will do a fair amount of their hypertrophy training as fast as possible (albeit at a weight heavy enough to slow them down). As the %1RM in training goes up, the number of reps per set goes down while still driving the weights up explosively, and the athlete merges from a hypertrophy focus to a max strength focus, before finally dropping %1RM significantly and doing power training to peak. Unlike a bodybuilder, the hypertrophy phases won't involve 20 different exercises per muscle group. Instead it will have more or less the same amount of exercises as any other phase, so hypertrophy won't be as great as could be expected on a higher volume program focused solely on getting bigger -- this is getting bigger for the purpose of improving strength and power down the line, not getting bigger for the purpose of looking good. I'm giving a bit more information than I usually would just because I feel like it, but over 20 weeks, the whole plan might go something like this:

    Hypertrophy
    1: 2x12x70%
    2: 2x11x72.5%
    3: 3x10x75%
    4: 3x9x77.5%
    5: 3x8x80%
    6: deload 3x7x60%
    Max Strength
    7: 5x6x80%
    8: 5x5x82.5%
    9: 5x4x85%
    10: 6x3x87.5%
    11: 6x2x90%
    12: Test 1RM
    Power
    13: 10x2x50%
    14: 10x3x50%
    15: 8x2x65%
    16: 8x3x65%
    17: 6x2x70%
    18: 6x3x70%
    19: 5x2x75%
    20: 5x3x75%
    Last edited by rdferguson; 06-03-2012 at 11:25 PM.
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  7. #7
    N.O.V. littlebones6's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hockeyd13 View Post
    There is an inverse relationship between muscle force and velocity. This means that there is actually a peak power as a function of force and velocity. As your muscles become larger, it negatively impacts the velocity that your muscle can generate. You can check out a nifty graphical representation over at wikipedia. I couldn't link in the image, but just google "muscle force velocity relationship".

    As for you're training, you're going to have to pick an outcome. The body's adaptations are just that specific. That's why you don't really see many top-tiered athletes with muscle bulk on the scale of top-tiered body builders. You can work on both at the same time, but you may see your gains taper off. If you need the speed and power for a specific athletic activity, what you should do is periodize your program. Focus on the strength/size aspects in the off-season, and as you approach the season, shift towards a power/speed based program a month or so out.

    It's thought that there is muscle fiber adaptation depending on your training. I think it's a type IIb to type IIa conversion, but don't quote me on that. I'm not sure there's a scientific consensus on whether fibers actually change or not.
    You can also have type IIA -> I conversion, as well as I -> IIA. But in saying that, we're talking about metabolic adaptations in the myocyte (proliferation and density of mitochondria, glycolytic enzymes in the cytosol, etc), structurally it's very rare to see a muscle cell change (in reference to the type of myosin heavy chain - whether it's I, IIA, IIB).

    But as echoed by others, power is not just a function of force, but a function of time. An effective way to train power is to lift low reps (1-3) explosively at approximately 80-85% of 1RM.
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  8. #8
    Come at me, bro! foodandfitness's Avatar
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    Yes, it is possible to maintain your power while training for strength and hypertrophy. Just make sure your are incorporating your power exercises. I recommend doing those exercises first in your workout. As long as you are just trying to maintain, you should still have enough energy to finish a hypertrophy or strength workout.
    - Tony Paradis, RD, LD, USAW, USAPL
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