The truth about Repetition Ranges and Muscular Hypertrophy (Srs Thread)(Good Info)

[FeaRxUnLeAsHeD]

will edit this post tomorrow with mitochondria hypertrophy info.

[northnorth35]

subed for later

[LegosInMyEgos]

where four art thou OP

[ThCweights]

where four art thou OP

Here brah - I wrote a lengthy post when you first posted and my chrome crashed and I lost it so I said f it cause I'm really busy.



So anyway, I haven't been able to find very many studies that I can just post as to the answer or resolution of our debate.


I read through this whole PDF today and it was packed with a lot of information. I found this paragraph interesting and in relation to your previous post -

Simply stating that hypertrophy is the enlargement of muscle fibers is a very vague definition as
it does not tell us what components are actually contributing to the increase in cross sectional
area. A more in depth examination shows us that there exist two major forms of hypertrophy
that occur in skeletal muscle; myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic. Myofibrillar hypertrophy is
characterized by an increase in number of the actual contractile components of the
sarcolemma, mainly being the myosin heavy chain proteins and actin filaments. This type of
hypertrophy is responsible for the concomitant increases in muscle force production with fiber
growth and should be the major focus of athletic programs aimed at increasing performance.
Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy occurs when the non contractile components of the muscle fiber
increase, examples of this include enlargement of the sarcoplasmic reticulum, increased
intracellular fluid retention, and increased storage of metabolic fuels such as glycogen and
creatine phosphate. A depiction of sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy can be seen in
Figure 2 below. Heavy resistance training produces a combination of these types of
hypertrophy but the intensity and endurance aspect of the training can play a role in which one
predominates. For example, sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is typically higher in bodybuilders, while
myofibrillar tends to be the majority in Olympic and power lifters.[12] Training stimulus also
effects muscle phenotype and will be discussed in the following section.


Figure 2



Figure 2 Adapted from William J. Kramer VZ: Science and practice of strength training. Champaign, Il: Human Kinetics; 2006.

Now the paragraph(s) in the above quote is basically what I've already gone over but the interesting and signficant point is that the source for [12] is William J. Kramer VZ: Science and practice of strength training. Champaign, Il: Human Kinetics. Which you spoke about in your first response in my thread.


If you could show the studies which clearly show support or, in any way, lean towards hyperplasia over hypertrophy from the book then your argument would be far better as I cannot even concieve of why so many educated people such as scientists, doctors, and -especially- kinesiologists could have possibly overlooked the support towards hyperplasia over hypertrophy in those studies because all of their literature/writing lean towards hypertrophy.

There just seems to be an odd situation going on here and truthfully I believe your argument to be entirely subjective without any real factual/conclusive evidence to really back you up sufficiently enough for me to disregard what I've read and understand.

[STPinPA]

Bumpin dis thread. waiting for leggos respnse

[shaunmalinao]

thanks OP

[ThCweights]

thanks OP

Np.

[LegosInMyEgos]

First of all, I just want to say the notion of there being two different types of hypertrophy WHEN WE DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND HOW HYPERTROPHY OCCURS is beyond laughable.

When you compound that with the fact you were not able to come with ANY EVIDENCE to your view and the only thing you did find was an unscientific article that referenced the book I was talking about.

Moving on.....

I actually happen to have Science And Practice of Strength Training, so I know exactly which studies are being mentioned. I find it kind of ironic that he mentions 3 studies in his own book that suggest hyperplasia, yet people use his book to reference different types of hypertrophy.

study 1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2607952

A polyclonal antibody specific to bovine basic fibroblast growth factor (bFGF) localizes bFGF in the extracellular matrix of rat skeletal muscle fibers, where it is bound by the heparin-rich basal lamina. FGF accumulation appears to be augmented in hypertrophied compared to control fibers. In addition, FGF-like growth activity can be isolated from hypertrophied muscle. This growth activity binds to heparin and can be purified by heparin-affinity chromatography. When assayed in a chick myogenic cell culture system, the purified rat growth activity stimulates myobenic cell replication and stimulates myosin accumulation and synthesis. The function, in vivo, of basal lamina-localized FGF in rat muscle is not known, but it is most probably related to increased satellite cell replication seen during normal fiber maturation, during work-induced hypertrophy, and during regeneration. During hypertrophy, we observe the appearance of new fibers in addition to growth of preexisting fibers. It is hypothesized that muscle hypertrophy involves activation of satellite cells which may then fuse with existing fibers and, in addition, also form new fibers.

I chose this one first because it is a rat study, which means it is of little value, because hyperplasia has been proven in many animals but not humans.

Study 2

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3698998

Single fibre electromyography (SFEMG) was performed on the left quadriceps, extensor digitorum communis, and biceps brachii muscles of four highly trained bodybuilders (BB). Muscle fibre areas, as assessed from biopsy samples, were similar in the BB as in age-matched habitually active male controls despite large differences in limb circumferences. This indicates a greater muscle fibre number in BB. An abnormally high muscle fibre density (FD) was recorded in two subjects exposed to extremely severe exercise for 14 years or longer, while those with normal FDs had been training extensively for a considerably shorter time (4-6 years). The abnormal FD was due either to an ephaptic transmission of action potentials between adjacent muscle fibres, or a muscle fibre hyperplasia, or most probably a combination of both, in response to a long-term functional overload. From the present results one cannot say whether the suggested muscle fibre hyperplasia had any major influence on the muscle hypertrophy per se, since all BB possessed large muscle volumes.

THIS IS A STUDY THAT IS MENTIONED IN the book. Bodybuilders have similar muscle fiber diameters as untrained populations, despite having larger overall muscle diameter.

Study 3

http://www.mendeley.com/research/ske...nce-swimmers/#

Skeletal muscle profiles of fiber composition and leg power and strength were obtained in 30 national caliber swimmers (20 males, 10 females). Subjects were classified into three groups based upon the distance of their primary events long distance (LDS), middle distance (MDS), and short distance (SDS) swimmers. Intergroup analyses showed that the LDS group had the highest values of percent Type I muscle fiber composition (percent Type I and percent Type I area), and the lowest values of leg power and strength values (vertical jump and torque-velocity relationships). In addition, when grouped by Type I fiber composition, subjects having greater than or equal to 50% Type I fibers had significantly lower vertical jump and torque values than those having less than 50% Type I fibers. Overall, the compositional and functional measurements were consistent with the specific metabolic and contractile demands of the different swim groups.

This study is hard to gauge based on the abstract, but the full study finds that SWIMMERS HAVE GREATER MUSCLE DIAMETER DESPITE HAVING SMALLER TYPE 1 AND TYPE 2 MUSCLE FIBERS THAN AN UNTRAINED POPULATION.

furthermore

Zatiorski's ENTIRE reference body for supporting different kinds of hypertrophy.... guess what... its 1 phucking rat study that doesn't even provide strong evidence of it.

You can find it here if you want. https://tnation.t-nation.com/free_on...10872&pageNo=1

So... in conclusion, this idea is a joke.

[av1atic]

i just lift things up and put them down

[ThCweights]

First of all, I just want to say the notion of there being two different types of hypertrophy WHEN WE DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND HOW HYPERTROPHY OCCURS is beyond laughable.

.

Alright brah, thanks I'm gonna go through your post later tomorrow and continue.

[Jimagine88]

OP, thoughts on my routine?

Day 1 - Chest/Arm
Smith Bench Press 3x3-5
Smith Incline Bench 4x10-12
Cable Crossover 3x15-20
Dips 3x3-5
Skull Crushers 4x10-12
Tricep Cable Pushdown(Rope or Bar) 3x15-20
Straight Barbell Curl 4x6-8
Incline Dumbbell Alt Curl 3x10-12
Hammer Curl 3x10-12
Abs


Day 2 - Back/Shoulder
Bent Over Rows 3x3-5
DB Row 3x8-10
Reverse Lat Pulldowns 4x8-10
Straight Arm Pulldowns 4x15-20
SM Shoulder Press 3x3-5
Upright Row 3x10-12
Rear Delt Row 3x10-12
Side Lateral Raises 3x15-20
Calf Raises 3x10-12


Day 3 - Legs
Squat 3x3-5
Leg Press 3x10-12
Leg Extension 3x15-20
Hamstring Curl 3x15-20
Calf Raises 4x10-12


Day 4 - Rest


Day 5 - Chest/Arm
Smith Bench Press 3x3-5
DB Incline Bench 3x10-12
DB Flyes 3x15-20
Close Grip Bench Press 3x3-5
Dips 3x8-10
Tricep Cable Pushdowns(Rope or Bar) 3x15-20
EZ Curl Wide Grip 3x8-10
EZ Curl Short Grip 3x8-10
Hammer Curl 3x10-12
Abs


Day 6 - Back/Shoulder
Bent Over Rows 3x3-5
DB Row 3x8-10
Seated Row 3x10-12
Lat Pulldowns 4x15-20
DB Shoulder Press 3x3-5
Upright Row 3x10-12
Rear Delt Row 3x10-12
Side Lateral Raises 3x15-20
Calf Raises 3x10-12


Day 7 - Legs
Squat 3x3-5
Leg Press 3x10-12
Leg Extension 3x15-20
Hamstring Curl 3x15-20
Calf Raises 4x10-12

[ThCweights]

OP, thoughts on my routine?

Definitely looks good!


I would throw in Straight Leg Dead Lifts on your leg day though - perfect for hamstrings.

[CementPizza]

Nice thread, OPenstein.

Will rep on recharge.

[Jimagine88]

Definitely looks good!


I would throw in Straight Leg Dead Lifts on your leg day though - perfect for hamstrings.

Thanks! Will do.

[Gibb1991]

Unfortunately not... I do not know a lot of people that incorporate all rep ranges in their routines.

I started finishing my phat workouts with a few sets with greater than 15 reps, never had a better pump to finish a workout with

[Geou]

Nice info. I'll give incorporating this idea into my routine a shot.

One question: I never took creatine because I read that the size gains you make on it will disappear once you stop taking it. But from your info, apparently you will make greater gains while taking creatine than otherwise. Is that the case?

[ThCweights]

Nice info. I'll give incorporating this idea into my routine a shot.

One question: I never took creatine because I read that the size gains you make on it will disappear once you stop taking it. But from your info, apparently you will make greater gains while taking creatine than otherwise. Is that the case?

Yes the latter is true. Cellular water is directly related to anabolism.

[Achilles8]

Good thread.. will read when I have time.

[MegaMan Myke]

great thrad! would rep, but repped on wu-tang thrad.

[surf junkie]

Its all about Time Under Load (TUL) broseph...

12 reps with good form = 50-70 seconds

8 reps = 30-45 seconds

3 reps = 6-12 seconds

[DavidJr74]

so earlier today I did this on incline bench. Was this effective?

95x15
115x12
135x9
155x6
175x3

[1800_Cool_Guy]

So should I do 12 sets of one exercise or what?

For ex; bench press. 4 sets of 3-6 reps, 4 sets of 6-12 reps, 4 sets of 15+

[ThCweights]

So should I do 12 sets of one exercise or what?

For ex; bench press. 4 sets of 3-6 reps, 4 sets of 6-12 reps, 4 sets of 15+

No,

Bench 4 sets 1-5 reps

Incline DB Press 4 sets 6-12 reps

Cable flies 4 sets 15-25 reps

[thepillager]

Thanks for the info man, good to see a serious post

[zidanny]

I'm currently doing a strength endurance program

Sets are 30,15,8,4,4,8,15

Obviously heavier weight as the reps drop, loving the results too
The pump is also amazing!!

[TranKy]

OP, how can one apply your suggestion to the smaller muscle groups like bicep ? Can you give an example of a good arm routine ?

[ziballer]

Next 1-2 Exercises - 3-4 sets with moderate loads in the 8-12 rep range with mostly compound movements.

What exercises would these be?

[drekkage]

THIS IS A STUDY THAT IS MENTIONED IN the book. Bodybuilders have similar muscle fiber diameters as untrained populations, despite having larger overall muscle diameter.

Study 3

http://www.mendeley.com/research/ske...nce-swimmers/#



This study is hard to gauge based on the abstract, but the full study finds that SWIMMERS HAVE GREATER MUSCLE DIAMETER DESPITE HAVING SMALLER TYPE 1 AND TYPE 2 MUSCLE FIBERS THAN AN UNTRAINED POPULATION.

furthermore

Zatiorski's ENTIRE reference body for supporting different kinds of hypertrophy.... guess what... its 1 phucking rat study that doesn't even provide strong evidence of it.

You can find it here if you want. https://tnation.t-nation.com/free_on...10872&pageNo=1

So... in conclusion, this idea is a joke.

how does creatine loading cause muscle enlargement if not by hypertrophy? are you saying it doesn't exist/is only marginally effective/cannot be achieved by exercise?
also how permanent is the proposed muscle hyperplasia? Are you saying that when you stop working out you lose muscle fibres?
also wouldn't national caliber swimmers likely be on growth hormone. That would invalidate the results of the 3rd study.

[nicko44]

good read reped

[ptwa9]

OP you start talking about rep ranges, but then are really talking about total volume. If you do 5 reps but 8 sets, obviously by the later sets some of your muscle fibers will already be fatigued, so you will recruit fast twitch fibers in order to get up the weight.

You can use low reps and high volume for hypertrophy. You don't need to switch up rep ranges.