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  1. #1
    Registered User fimblez's Avatar
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    How many times should you work out each bodypart?!?!

    Title

    Just posting it in contest prep section because's the section with the most knowledgeable posters.

    Most people on the boars I post on and most pros, it seems, train a typical 5 day split working each muscle 5 times per week, but here it seems everyone says twice a week is much better.

    Lyle says for the natural athlete once every 3-5 days is the optimum frequency for the natural athlete to maximum hypertrophy.

    I hope some vets will post their opinions here.
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  2. #2
    Registered User chuntbaby's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by fimblez View Post
    Title

    Just posting it in contest prep section because's the section with the most knowledgeable posters.

    Most people on the boars I post on and most pros, it seems, train a typical 5 day split working each muscle 5 times per week, but here it seems everyone says twice a week is much better.

    Lyle says for the natural athlete once every 3-5 days is the optimum frequency for the natural athlete to maximum hypertrophy.

    I hope some vets will post their opinions here.
    In my experience twice a week is where it's at for natural guys, both in terms of both Hypertrophy and strength

    i think mostly everyone here will agree with that
    what can you possibly say to a guy thats ripped up like mother @$%#! rambo
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  3. #3
    Registered User fimblez's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by chuntbaby View Post
    In my experience twice a week is where it's at for natural guys, both in terms of both Hypertrophy and strength

    i think mostly everyone here will agree with that
    I am not natural, have been cruising and blasting for 2 years and cycling for about 5 years prior to that.

    This is what confuses me, surely natty trainees would be slower to recover from workouts and would have to train with less frequency?
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  4. #4
    Registered User chuntbaby's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by fimblez View Post
    I am not natural, have been cruising and blasting for 2 years and cycling for about 5 years prior to that.

    This is what confuses me, surely natty trainees would be slower to recover from workouts and would have to train with less frequency?
    overall volume would still be the same or possibly less than your's even with 2 days a week frequency per body part

    It's stimulating the muscle twice a week not 30 sets twice a week per body part

    most body parts I still only do 15-20 sets a week (less on a cut) 3 - 6 sets on heavier days depending on the bodypart with alittle more for legs(upper body is Monday and lower is Tuesday) and then 9 to 15 sets or so on the higher rep days thursday (chest/arms) friday(legs) and saturday (back and shoulders)
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  5. #5
    Registered User fimblez's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by chuntbaby View Post
    overall volume would still be the same or possibly less than your's even with 2 days a week frequency per body part

    It's stimulating the muscle twice a week not 30 sets twice a week per body part

    most body parts I still only do 15-20 sets a week (less on a cut) 3 - 6 sets on heavier days depending on the bodypart with alittle more for legs(upper body is Monday and lower is Tuesday) and then 9 to 15 sets or so on the higher rep days thursday (chest/arms) friday(legs) and saturday (back and shoulders)
    Why would you not work each bodypart to maximum capacity each workout? Why would you stop at a certain amount of sets, say 10 sets for that bodypart, when you still have plenty of energy to do more?
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  6. #6
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    Originally Posted by fimblez View Post
    Why would you not work each bodypart to maximum capacity each workout? Why would you stop at a certain amount of sets, say 10 sets for that bodypart, when you still have plenty of energy to do more?
    It's not like any natural guy is half assing these work outs (well at least me and my friends aren't) - they are still really hard and there's enough volume to cause muscle growth and strength

    2 workouts per bodypart a week is double the chance to grow

    like lee haney said - Stimulate, don't annihilate

    whether this is the best way for an enhanced guy to train; well that I have no idea on that one
    what can you possibly say to a guy thats ripped up like mother @$%#! rambo
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  7. #7
    Registered User fimblez's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by chuntbaby View Post
    It's not like any natural guy is half assing these work outs (well at least me and my friends aren't) - they are still really hard and there's enough volume to cause muscle growth and strength

    2 workouts per bodypart a week is double the chance to grow

    like lee haney said - Stimulate, don't annihilate

    whether this is the best way for an enhanced guy to train; well that I have no idea on that one
    Well I've been reading and posting on forums daily for years and years now, just looking for opinions on people here, was hoping to maybe hear from the natty pros like berto to see his perspective on it, as there is no concrete evidence/studies as to what training frequency is optimal for maximum anabolism
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  8. #8
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    A higher rep range has been shown to be more effective at causing muscle hypertrophy. However the main idea behind natural guys lifting twice a week, is that in order to be able to use heavier weight in that high rep range, they need to also train in a low rep range , which as been shown to be more effective at developing strength. So without the power days, they're hypertrophy days and gains will eventually stall. ( I state this because most people lifting twice a week are not doing 2x hypertrophy based programs, at least not for long stretches).

    This power/hyper idea works for guys on cycle obviously but when guys start using, the gear itself allow them to use heavier weight. With this in mind, they don't really need to do the power workouts in order to get stronger.

    So... many on cycle have opted to either do hypertrophy days 2x each body part since it should be better for causing muscle gain then doing a power/strength.
    The question you asked is once or twice? Well considering a natural athlete can typically train everything twice a week and recover fine, I see no reason why a guy with enhanced recovery shouldn't be able to as well. I don't see the advantage in train things once a week.
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  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by fimblez View Post
    Title

    Just posting it in contest prep section because's the section with the most knowledgeable posters.

    Most people on the boars I post on and most pros, it seems, train a typical 5 day split working each muscle 5 times per week, but here it seems everyone says twice a week is much better.

    Lyle says for the natural athlete once every 3-5 days is the optimum frequency for the natural athlete to maximum hypertrophy.

    I hope some vets will post their opinions here.
    I'm about to start Lyle's UD2.0 on Monday and the program he has is doing full body 4 times a week. Which is basically working each body part 4 times. It's a body recomp. program but I don't think it matters either way, I keep hearing great stuff about it from natty guys so I'd assume it's fine.
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  10. #10
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    This original question is all up to the person. If you are natural, and are recovering quickly from a 5 day split then try a 2 day split. It's up to you and your body. Personally I think you should still go as heavy as possible on certain body parts of a particular week. What I mean is rotate your body parts and start the week heavy and go lighter towards the end of your week(or whenever your off-days fall in the week).
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  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by fimblez View Post
    Why would you not work each bodypart to maximum capacity each workout? Why would you stop at a certain amount of sets, say 10 sets for that bodypart, when you still have plenty of energy to do more?
    Energy to do more work will often vary greatly from ability to recover from that workout. Volume, frequency and intensity should be dialed in based on an individual's ability to recover. I used to train with considerably more volume (and still had "energy to do more") but I have recently cut my volume AND intensity of my training. Traditional "more is better" mentality would say that I would get weaker, when in fact I my body responded really well and I am continuing to get stronger even DEEP into prep. Rest is equally important to training.
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  12. #12
    The Physique Architect str8flexed's Avatar
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    Non-linear undulating periodization. end of conversation
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    I think it takes years of training to decide what is best for you. There are times where I hit a bodypart with more intensity but less volume once every 4-5 days for 6-12 months and other times where I will do more volume usually in 8 week blasts but only hit a bodypart once every 7 days before going back to lower volume.

    Just keep in mind your body will not adapt to the same program or stimulus forever, so its good to keep changing variables.
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    Originally Posted by Theseusz View Post
    I think it takes years of training to decide what is best for you. There are times where I hit a bodypart with more intensity but less volume once every 4-5 days for 6-12 months and other times where I will do more volume usually in 8 week blasts but only hit a bodypart once every 7 days before going back to lower volume.

    Just keep in mind your body will not adapt to the same program or stimulus forever, so its good to keep changing variables.

    Thanks for the great replies everyone(except str8 flexed), i appreciate it
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    Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr View Post
    Energy to do more work will often vary greatly from ability to recover from that workout. Volume, frequency and intensity should be dialed in based on an individual's ability to recover. I used to train with considerably more volume (and still had "energy to do more") but I have recently cut my volume AND intensity of my training. Traditional "more is better" mentality would say that I would get weaker, when in fact I my body responded really well and I am continuing to get stronger even DEEP into prep. Rest is equally important to training.
    Oak I don't get this... I get plenty of rest between workouts, you have purposely decreased both volume AND intensity, and are getting stronger while in contest prep??

    Could you just explain this a bit better? Just wondering because I genuinely value your opinion.
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    Originally Posted by fimblez View Post
    Thanks for the great replies everyone(except str8 flexed), i appreciate it
    yea, I obviously have no clue what I'm talking about.

    best of luck to you
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    Originally Posted by fimblez View Post
    Thanks for the great replies everyone(except str8 flexed), i appreciate it
    lol, you're kidding right?
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    Originally Posted by str8flexed View Post
    yea, I obviously have no clue what I'm talking about.

    best of luck to you

    OP you dun goofed.
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    Originally Posted by str8flexed View Post
    Non-linear undulating periodization. end of conversation
    This. its what i follow and loads of others. its adaptive. flexible and works! Google it to see for yourself but don't dismiss it
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    Originally Posted by fimblez View Post
    Thanks for the great replies everyone(except str8 flexed), i appreciate it
    uh oh! Dude, Layne is educated and very helpful on a personal level! Not many with his knowledge will answer a personal email! I think you'd do yourself some justice by reading up on some of his material in the sticky's. Or, Google "Layne Norton PHAT routine." Those articles will touch on a 2x a week protocol you're looking for and give you the why's! good luck, bro!
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    What a lot of people don't realize, both natural and Enhanced athletes don't grow while they are training, they grow when they are resting. So if you are constantly in the gym every day or two training the same body part it isn't going to have a chance to recover and repair and therefore you will not be able to get the results you are looking for. What would be more beneficial would be to train every body part once a week except your weaker body part. Train this twice a week and train it after a cheat meal or "re-feed" so you're glycogen stores are full and you will also feel better in the gym. For example If shoulders were my lagging body part I would train them on Tuesday and then again on Saturday with Back.
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    Originally Posted by fimblez View Post
    Title

    Just posting it in contest prep section because's the section with the most knowledgeable posters.

    Most people on the boars I post on and most pros, it seems, train a typical 5 day split working each muscle 5 times per week, but here it seems everyone says twice a week is much better.

    Lyle says for the natural athlete once every 3-5 days is the optimum frequency for the natural athlete to maximum hypertrophy.

    I hope some vets will post their opinions here.
    I don't think there is one magic bodypart frequency. It should be varied. Because some variable will always be limiting.

    Regarding Lyle Mcdonald's routines; the upper/lower body split he suggests sounds nice on paper but it will soon become limiting as you lift heavier weights and also need more volume etc. It's a compromise between different things. I suggest alternating routines instead. Do a period of strength specific training and then do a period of something like a traditional 4-6 day bodybuilding split.

    I know Layne Norton suggests to basically combine the two in one week or microcycle (PHAT) but for many people it's too much at the same time (and I don't necessarily mean too much volume, more like trying to do too many things at the same time). In those cases better to alternate routines.
    Last edited by nolotil; 05-07-2012 at 05:06 AM.
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    Originally Posted by fimblez View Post
    Well I've been reading and posting on forums daily for years and years now, just looking for opinions on people here, was hoping to maybe hear from the natty pros like berto to see his perspective on it, as there is no concrete evidence/studies as to what training frequency is optimal for maximum anabolism
    You seem to think that there is one answer, what if in reality it's something that needs to be varied (based on individual differences, training age, age, avoiding the body and mind going stale, because you can't optimize every variable at the same time etc etc) . There are a bunch of these kinds of threads all over the internet where people look for the exact amount of optimal sets, volume, reps and so on.

    There is no such answer and anyone who thinks so is making things too simple.

    First of all you need to ask yourself if you are a currently getting results, if yes , then continue doing what you are doing (although unless you are competitive athlete you also need to factor in if you like what you are doing. For recreational lifters that's also very important, for competitive lifters/athletes it's more a case of doing what needs to be done. Within limits of course, unless you are making huge amounts of money...which 99.9% don't when it comes to bodybuilding).
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    Originally Posted by daniellemac View Post
    What a lot of people don't realize, both natural and Enhanced athletes don't grow while they are training, they grow when they are resting. So if you are constantly in the gym every day or two training the same body part it isn't going to have a chance to recover and repair and therefore you will not be able to get the results you are looking for. What would be more beneficial would be to train every body part once a week except your weaker body part. Train this twice a week and train it after a cheat meal or "re-feed" so you're glycogen stores are full and you will also feel better in the gym. For example If shoulders were my lagging body part I would train them on Tuesday and then again on Saturday with Back.
    From personal experience i have to agree with this 100%!!
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  25. #25
    The Physique Architect str8flexed's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nolotil View Post
    I don't think there is one magic bodypart frequency. It should be varied. Because some variable will always be limiting.

    Regarding Lyle Mcdonald's routines; the upper/lower body split he suggests sounds nice on paper but it will soon become limiting as you lift heavier weights and also need more volume etc. It's a compromise between different things. I suggest alternating routines instead. Do a period of strength specific training and then do a period of something like a traditional 4-6 day bodybuilding split.

    I know Layne Norton suggests to basically combine the two in one week or microcycle (PHAT) but for many people it's too much at the same time (and I don't necessarily mean too much volume, more like trying to do too many things at the same time). In those cases better to alternate routines.
    if you adapt correctly it is not too much. But PHAT is not a 'routine' it's a system of training (just a simplified form of non-linear periodization) which non-linear and daily undulating periodization have been shown in studies to give the best results compared to linear periodization & unperiodized routines (95% of bodybuilding routines you find in magazines would qualify as 'unperiodized'). You can and should adjust these systems to your individual situation.
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    Originally Posted by str8flexed View Post
    if you adapt correctly it is not too much. But PHAT is not a 'routine' it's a system of training (just a simplified form of non-linear periodization) which non-linear and daily undulating periodization have been shown in studies to give the best results compared to linear periodization & unperiodized routines (95% of bodybuilding routines you find in magazines would qualify as 'unperiodized'). You can and should adjust these systems to your individual situation.
    Not necessarily what I was commenting on. But I'll leave it at that.

    Point is that a lot of people try to do too many things within a training week or microcycle. You can't optimize every variable, you always have to compromise something. Better in my opinion to even out pros and cons with various set ups by alternating routines. Keeps training interesting too.
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    you can certainly have paralysis by analysis, seen that a lot
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    Originally Posted by daniellemac View Post
    What a lot of people don't realize, both natural and Enhanced athletes don't grow while they are training, they grow when they are resting. So if you are constantly in the gym every day or two training the same body part it isn't going to have a chance to recover and repair and therefore you will not be able to get the results you are looking for. What would be more beneficial would be to train every body part once a week except your weaker body part. Train this twice a week and train it after a cheat meal or "re-feed" so you're glycogen stores are full and you will also feel better in the gym. For example If shoulders were my lagging body part I would train them on Tuesday and then again on Saturday with Back.
    Although I agree to an extent. Spending 2-3hrs isnt optimal for basically anyone. This also goes in line with what oakjr was saying how he has allowed himself more rest and his body has responded wonderfully.

    On the other hand.... If you're going to hit your weak bodyparts 2x / week to get a better stimulus, than why stop there? That is implying that hitting 2x a week is superior (which is what science is pointing at ne ways) if more rest is needed then "overtraining" your weak muscle group should be kept at a lower volume of 1x/wk too.

    @ Layne I think some people (or most for that matter) dont necessarily understand what your actually saying, or even how to put it into practical use.

    I personally was using PHAT style training and liked it a lot. There has been a lot of rant/raving about Jim Wendlers 5/3/1 program so I may try implementing that myself with a bodybuilding twist.
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  29. #29
    The Physique Architect str8flexed's Avatar
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    actually i got some of the best gains of my life on routines people SWORE I would overtrain on like sheiko and smolov where I was squatting 2-4x/week for hours. If you stacked up the number of people who overtrained and those that undertrained, I can ASSURE you that the people who truly overtrained would be DWARFED by the large amount of people who undertrain. My friend Mike Zourdos at FSU just finished his PhD on this very topic and once squatted for 78 days straight and massively improved his squat during that time. Did he eventually overreach? absolutely, but then he did a proper deload and actualized those gains from the overreaching cycle.
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    Originally Posted by str8flexed View Post
    you can certainly have paralysis by analysis, seen that a lot
    I probably shouldn't have mentioned your name because I was really commenting on a general phenomenon. My bad.
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