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  1. #1
    Registered User leisure1's Avatar
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    Post What is the best PROVEN WORKOUT PROGRAM?for strength and for size

    So everyone is always talking about broscience this and broscience that well wheres the science in the most effective workout program for size and the most effective for strength, where is the proof and where is the EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE,
    Maybe we can get some comparisons in of certain wokrout programs etc.
    im just tired of opinions, the programs either work or they dont work. bodies are different but not that much different,
    WHY HAVE WE NOT NARROWED IT DOWN TO A FEW PROGRAMS?
    why the trial and error, why the bro science
    lets get the facts pls
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  2. #2
    Banned ttuedu's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by leisure1 View Post
    So everyone is always talking about broscience this and broscience that well wheres the science in odies are different but not that much different,
    WHY HAVE WE NOT NARROWED IT DOWN TO A FEW PROGRAMS?
    why the trial and error, why the bro science
    lets get the facts pls

    It's bc different programs work differently for everyone. Just bc a workout routine works for me doesn't mean it'll work for somebody else. Everyone recovers and reacts to routines differently. Aka trial and error
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  3. #3
    Soaking in a Digital Bath ShaneSwan's Avatar
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    Science typically generalises, and so tends to remove individuality. Consider, the 'best' scientific propositions are those that are most universal, simply because they are more capable of being falsified, and they 'cover' more individual or particular instances. The history and evolution of scientific theories bears this out.

    The practical side of science is that variables generally need to be identified and simplified, otherwise 'correlation' can be confused for 'causation'. Now, because most of us do not live in 'controlled' conditions for any length of time, in the 'real world' of day-to-day-life there are myriad of interweaving and interlocking variables. This, in particular, is what leads to 'results may vary' in terms of training programs.

    Consider that the variable of 'time' further adds to this complexity; ie variables change/are dynamic over time. For example, the program that is currently working is no guarantee that it will continue to work indefinitely: the goal when utilising any program is to achieve change of some sort, so it makes sense that beyond a certain point any changes will render the program less useful (diminishing returns). It is perhaps ironic that we use a program to achieve (positive) change, or at least stave it off (negative change or regression), but the success of that program will also make it less efficient over time.

    Supposedly, Hancock's 'HST' system is based entirely on scientific principles. Whether this makes it the 'best' system is debatable, I think. I dont think the science on training is anywhere near 'complete' enough that one could claim any protocol is 'the best'.
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  4. #4
    Rant FF League Champion PeterGibbons316's Avatar
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    Check out the workout journals section. All your empirical evidence is in there, you just have to dig to find it.
    My Journal:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=134256491

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  5. #5
    Registered User crenjamin's Avatar
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    Heavy compound lifts and food (squats and oats). I did some research in my lab and got some good results. The lab being various gyms.
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  6. #6
    This Space for Rent RockCrab's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by PeterGibbons316 View Post
    Check out the workout journals section. All your empirical evidence is in there, you just have to dig to find it.
    Says the guy with a half-way decent journal . . .
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  7. #7
    witty comment goes here SimonThePieman's Avatar
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    The best workout for someone is most frequency with the highest volume they can FULLY RECOVER from when supported by an adequate diet.

    The frequency per muscle is generally thought to be 3 time a week in beginners and twice a week in intermediates. There are some that say in advanced and drug support athletes that once a week frequency is best, but little scientific data supports this.

    Volume is a very individual thing and for beginners its best not to rush the volume as the CNS (central nervous system) has an accelerated progression over muscular development. Once this tappers off you have a better idea of what volume you can handle. Thats why Starting Strength is so highly endorsed as it gets most people this level pretty quickly.

    Once you can no long add weight to the bar every fully body session, you can moved to more advance strength orientated routines (Madcow intermediate or 5/3/1 are the first to spring to mind) or switch to upper/ lower twice a week (WS4SB or Lyles generic bulking routines are two great ones).

    Some people want a compromise between the above and all-pros is a good one for that.

    All of this is nothing unless supported by an adequate diet. All of which is covered by the stickies in the nutritional section.

    alternative you could do what most people do and start 5 day body split from the start, spend loads on supplements and spin your wheels for years
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  8. #8
    Soon JackedPlusRich's Avatar
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    1. Build a strength base with SS and similar (~1-2 years)
    2. Begin to experiment with higher volumes and intensity techniques using different programs every 3-4 months to see how your body reacts (~2-3+ years). Lyles Generic bulking and 4 - 5 day splits (e.g. Chest/Bis, Back, Shoulders/Tris, Legs) are examples of these types.
    3. Be an advanced lifter after 5 years of lifting, have experimented with all types of volumes, frequencies, intensity techniques and many other variables, know exactly how your body reacts and how best to design your own programs which you cycle through every 3-4 months. Likely approaching natty limit at this stage.

    Waiting around to find the best program scientifically is incredibly stupid, until science can scan your genetics and exactly how they are going to interact with the environment over the next 5 - 10 years, then it will be impossible to know. We are VERY VERY far away from this being a reality. What is known is that the body responds to VARIETY, meaning that you will have to try out different programs to get the most out of your training anyway, so this is a perfect opportunity for trial and error.

    The truth is that putting in 3-5 years hard work in any half decent set of programs, with proper nutrition will leave you in incredible shape, as long as your diet (which is MUCH MUCH more important than how you lift) and resting are in check. If your not getting serious results in a 6 to 12 month period something is seriously wrong, likely your nutrition or possible medical issue like low testosterone.

    Don't over think it, LIFT HARD, EAT HARD AND REST HARD. That's it.
    Diet is what separates the Jacked from the Frustrated.
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  9. #9
    EricTheConqueror batman37's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JackedPlusRich View Post
    1. Build a strength base with SS and similar (~1-2 years)
    2. Begin to experiment with higher volumes and intensity techniques using different programs every 3-4 months to see how your body reacts (~2-3+ years). Lyles Generic bulking and 4 - 5 day splits (e.g. Chest/Bis, Back, Shoulders/Tris, Legs) are examples of these types.
    3. Be an advanced lifter after 5 years of lifting, have experimented with all types of volumes, frequencies, intensity techniques and many other variables, know exactly how your body reacts and how best to design your own programs which you cycle through every 3-4 months. Likely approaching natty limit at this stage.

    Waiting around to find the best program scientifically is incredibly stupid, until science can scan your genetics and exactly how they are going to interact with the environment over the next 5 - 10 years, then it will be impossible to know. We are VERY VERY far away from this being a reality. What is known is that the body responds to VARIETY, meaning that you will have to try out different programs to get the most out of your training anyway, so this is a perfect opportunity for trial and error.

    The truth is that putting in 3-5 years hard work in any half decent set of programs, with proper nutrition will leave you in incredible shape, as long as your diet (which is MUCH MUCH more important than how you lift) and resting are in check. If your not getting serious results in a 6 to 12 month period something is seriously wrong, likely your nutrition or possible medical issue like low testosterone.

    Don't over think it, LIFT HARD, EAT HARD AND REST HARD. That's it.
    Listen to this guy.
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    Registered User leisure1's Avatar
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    Thanks for the well thought out information guys, i enjoyed reading it. its nice to see some insight from people who know what they are talking about. i agree everyone has different bodies and responds differently and i also think there will mainly be tons of broscience in the sport of fitness/bodybuilding but i just wish with all these supplement companies (like muscle tech) who claim to do tons of research and have millions or maybe some people that are genuinely interested should get a group of like 200 experienced individuals in weight lifting and do a completely controlled study where they basically live in the same place for a long time and eat the same but test like 10 different popular programs and see the results but something like this will probably never happen
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  11. #11
    EricTheConqueror batman37's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=leisure1;872859421]Thanks for the well thought out information guys, i enjoyed reading it. its nice to see some insight from people who know what they are talking about. i agree everyone has different bodies and responds differently and i also think there will mainly be tons of broscience in the sport of fitness/bodybuilding but i just wish with all these supplement companies (like muscle tech) who claim to do tons of research and have millions or maybe some people that are genuinely interested should get a group of like 200 experienced individuals in weight lifting and do a completely controlled study where they basically live in the same place for a long time and eat the same but test like 10 different popular programs and see the results but something like this will probably never happen[/QUOTE]

    Well yeah, their goal is to make money. Real results would probably not be in their favour and they would lose money.

    Whats wrong with bro-science? Try things for yourself and if it works, it works. I think it would be boring to just KNOW what works without trying different things.
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    -The Pareto principle: 80% of the effects are from 20% of causes. All the other small details will only affect a small portion of results, 80% of causes will contribute to 20% of the effects.

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  12. #12
    Registered User leisure1's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=batman37;872863161]
    Originally Posted by leisure1 View Post
    Thanks for the well thought out information guys, i enjoyed reading it. its nice to see some insight from people who know what they are talking about. i agree everyone has different bodies and responds differently and i also think there will mainly be tons of broscience in the sport of fitness/bodybuilding but i just wish with all these supplement companies (like muscle tech) who claim to do tons of research and have millions or maybe some people that are genuinely interested should get a group of like 200 experienced individuals in weight lifting and do a completely controlled study where they basically live in the same place for a long time and eat the same but test like 10 different popular programs and see the results but something like this will probably never happen[/QUOTE]

    True , true. i also like experimenting but its just tiresome seeing people at the gym lifting for years and looking the same and lifting the same weight. even although im sure even if we knew it all and put the info out there we would still see tons of people at the gym doing it completely wrong

    Well yeah, their goal is to make money. Real results would probably not be in their favour and they would lose money.

    Whats wrong with bro-science? Try things for yourself and if it works, it works. I think it would be boring to just KNOW what works without trying different things.
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  13. #13
    O.G. (Original Guido) Jasonk282's Avatar
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    science in bodybuilding/fitness should be taken with a grain of salt.
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  14. #14
    Registered User FueltheFire's Avatar
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    Do Rippetoes if your a novice.
    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/wotw52.htm

    or

    Bill Star's 5x5 if your intermediate.
    http://nutribody.com/blog/post/Bill-...5-Workout.aspx


    You should know your 1 set max and lift those 5 at about 80% of your max for novice programs. The website I gave for Bill Stars has an excel worksheet where you can enter your max's and it will design the program for you. I personally have done Bill Stars on multiple occasions and always get great results usually raising my Max Lifts 20-25lbs in 6 weeks!!!

    http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLi...hStandards.htm
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  15. #15
    Strength Enthusiast Retardo-pex's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by leisure1 View Post
    So everyone is always talking about broscience this and broscience that well wheres the science in the most effective workout program for size and the most effective for strength, where is the proof and where is the EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE,
    Maybe we can get some comparisons in of certain wokrout programs etc.
    im just tired of opinions, the programs either work or they dont work. bodies are different but not that much different,
    WHY HAVE WE NOT NARROWED IT DOWN TO A FEW PROGRAMS?
    why the trial and error, why the bro science
    lets get the facts pls
    You are right and wrong.

    Lifter A does 5x5 and gets his diet/supplements down early on. He gets stronger and lot of size, does some moderate cardio and keeps his fat in check.

    Lifter B does 5x5 and eats as he always did, more on workout days because he read extra calories are good. No real plan other then doing the program. Doesn't go through a lifestyle change like lifter A did, makes minimal progress.

    5x5 worked for both lifters, but you'd be hard pressed to get lifter B to admit he was terrible and not the program.

    If you want to focus mainly on strength, there are 1000's of programs and they will all work if you want them to.

    If you want to focus mainly on hypertrophy, there are 1000's of programs and they will all work if you want them to.

    Its annoying to a degree, yes because we all WANT to simply be told " Do this on monday, this on wednesday, etc, rinse repeat see great results" You need to find a program that you enjoy, can alter in case of stalling, and will continue to use for many moons. This is the best program for your goals. I've seen similar results on several routines, sometimes completely opposite in design. I've also seen poor results, sometimes from the same routines I've had good results with. That doesn't make a program good or bad, the effort and dedication I put into them make or break the program, not the sets, reps, or split I choose.
    Current Bests (raw/singleply)

    Squat- 435 / 512.5
    Bench- 280 / 308.5
    Deadlift- 495/ 534

    Goals:

    - Squat 500, Bench 325, Deadlift 550 raw at 181-220.

    - Give the recreational bodybuilder thing a solid effort.
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