General consensus of PT's

[Vonkrumm]

I have been going to a PT for 7 weeks now and not seeing the results I had hoped for...

So far I am still deadlifting 35kg off the #3 support bar with a body weight of 105kg I found out about SS/SL in this forum and now am worried all my efforts for weight training have gone to waste.

Most of my working sets are 2x12 with a warm up on the DL/SQ. My trainer won't look at dropping my reps to 8 and says hell no to the 3x5 stuff. Now I'm even more worried that I will waste months on this routine that involves fit-ball squats and push-ups without seeing any gains....

Strength is strength right? I "think" hypertrophy/endurance is useless now when my DL is 0.3 of my BW and that's not even off the floor.

I just wanted to know if this kind of full body on alternate day routine is ok?

Anyway I'm stuck...

[KyleAaron]

There's no way for us to know. For all we know you have herniated discs in your back so that deadlifting 35kg is amazing. Is it much strength? Nope. Did you tell your PT that was your goal?

Capabilities and goals. When the trainer knows those, they can plan your routine and progression. If your goals change, so must your routine. Commonly people begin with no particular goal at all, thus it changes a lot in the first months.

[Vonkrumm]

Capabilities and goals. When the trainer knows those, they can plan your routine and progression.

It's almost impossible to have a goal as a beginner other than the loosely based "I want to look like such n such". I have considered the intermediate weight lifting goals - DL 1.5xBW, Bench 1xBW ect. but there's no way I can base these goals on anything.

Perhaps I should find my 10rep max with the common compound lifts and go from there?

Edit:
Minus herniated discs, paraplegic rehabilitation or the olympic athlete, what would 99% of beginner males have as their goal when starting weight training....

[PerFit]

Before even going into any of this, why did you start with this trainer? have you seen testimonials and before/afters from them before you started? If he has a proven track record, stick with him otherwise this one is kinda on you.


Would you buy a house/car/tv/anything without first seeing what they are like?

[untranslatedZA]

If your goal is to get a higher lifting total become a lifter, if your goal is to become big, become a bodybuilder, if your goal is to become a crossfitter, then crossfit, if your goal is to look like a fitness model, train for fitness modeling, if your goal is just to get a little more healthy..... stop and pick one of the first 4. Training to be a lifter wont mean that you will be able to get a 1000lbs squat but at least try. To be honnest im not a big believer in sweet talking people about 35kg deadlift for a 105kg person being awsome... its not.... Also what are you other stats, since i dont know how tall/obese or even if you are a man or a woman since im too lazy to go into your profile ;].

But yeah SS or 5x5 is a good platform to start from regardless of what your goals are. Its easy to manage to workload and u are only training 3 days a week. You could milk linear progression for quite some time and with good diet u could pretty much do it indefinitely.

As for your lifting stats, technique is just as if not more important in training for anything. If you are a man you should be deadlifting your bodyweight within one month easily. Find out why you are stuck at 35kgs and youll be at 100kg very quick.

And 2x12 reps are a joke, tell your personal trainer to go help the cardio hoes. You dont warm up with DL / SQ, that should be your working set. If he is telling you 2x12 all the time, then maybe your technique is totally flawed and he wants you to get more reps in to improve your form. Even so your form will change anyway as soon as you start ramping up the weight. So rather start of heavy and work your form from there. You can teach anyone to 80% perfect squat with a bar and two 5kgs but when u add real weight u see them do some disgusting things. Do ss for 4 months, watch videos of squat form, bench form, deadlift form, since its the base of ALL your other lifts and what you learn from those 3 will transfer into your overhead press, rows, everything.

People think gymsports are easy, they are not they take alot of hard work, research and paying attention to what others say and what your body is telling you. So start doing research in your spare time, it will probably help with your motivation too.

[untranslatedZA]

It's almost impossible to have a goal as a beginner other than the loosely based "I want to look like such n such". I have considered the intermediate weight lifting goals - DL 1.5xBW, Bench 1xBW ect. but there's no way I can base these goals on anything.

Perhaps I should find my 10rep max with the common compound lifts and go from there?

Edit:
Minus herniated discs, paraplegic rehabilitation or the olympic athlete, what would 99% of beginner males have as their goal when starting weight training....

Paraplegic rehab ? Well then that explains your deadlift, now it makes more sense. What other peoples goals are should be irrelevant, since they are not you. Mine are diff than yours since you weight 30kg more than me but aim for 150kg squat 100kg bench and 200kg deadlift for a start. ;]

[Vonkrumm]

Thanks for your help guys, it is much appreciated...

why did you start with this trainer?

I chose him because he has the most experience at the local gym.

im not a big believer in sweet talking people about 35kg deadlift for a 105kg person being awsome... its not....

I know, I wanted to describe how bad things look. I am quite healthy and actually have sqewed strength in my but/legs.

2x12 reps are a joke, tell your personal trainer to go help the cardio hoes.

We went to 2x15 tonight. Thats double the volume of SS. Not even in the hypertrophy range right?

[untranslatedZA]

Find a new trainer.... 4-8 reps will milk gains the most for beginners, i was doing 8+ bodybuilding routine... eating right ect. Went to a powerlifting routine with a mass gainer went from 63kg - 70kg in 1 months, sure i picked up 50% of that was fat but sitting at a very comfertable 11-13% bf. And my lifts went up ... and more up.... and more up... it staller now for the last 5 months while i was messing around with diff routines ect. but doing 5x5 now for the first time and i feel bulletproof. Guna start adding cardio soon since i need to drop down to 67kg ;[ meh. All u need to do is SQ/BNCH/DL for the first 4 months, no bicep curls, no lunges, no weird ass plyometrics, just stick to the basics and get them really really solid, then u start with OHP and Rows and Pullup and Dips. Then only do u start getting bicep/tricep/delts and all those other workouts in. Doing bicep curls with 10kgs is pointless at any weight in my opinion vs a pullup or a row.

'most' (not all ive seen some damn good trainers) are retards to be honest, they are test takers who 'dontevenlegsbrah'. They look at me like im satan when i deadlift or squat below parralel, they like 'u guna **** up your knees brah' 'watch out your back brah' bla bla bla. SS is king for beginners regarless of what your goals are.

[jeffsmith2]

My certification instructed me to start clients with a goal for strength on 12-15 rep sets for at least a month, based on conditioning before moving to lower rep, higher intensity sets such as the starting strength routine. I'd imagine others are pretty much the same. These kind of beginner instructions do a couple of things: a) introduce client to resistance training and b) reduce their chance of getting injured. The only reason I tend to start off some clients with higher rep sets is to have them learn proper form or to correct obvious problems.

You need to understand this when recommending a routine like Starting Strength or the like: It's only for people who are willing to eat properly to fuel the muscle hypertrophy and gains in strength. If you don't do that, you will progress to a point and then stall out. Personally, I think SS is a great routine that maximizes gains even for people who eat like ****, but you will stop gaining at some point. SS is not some magical routine that will progress you to become a monster in the gym on its own. The one thing I like about it is that if focuses almost exclusively on the exercises that matter and cuts out all of the garbage machine isolations and other gimmicky things a lot of bad trainers resort to.

To the OP: If you're unsure why your trainer is prescribing you things, ask them why they're doing it and don't accept a ****ty answer. Don't feel bad about starting out really light or doing pushups as you say. If the pushup for instance is genuinely hard for you, then it's probably good you're doing them. If you can crank out 20+ pushups easily, it's probably not a good strength exercise for you. I've seen plenty of rank beginners who can't even do a single pushup, men and women. For these type of people, the pushup is a wonderful strength exercise.

[ts65]

OP, your trainer sounds like a tool.

Not because he started you on 12 reps or whatever, but because it sounds like he doesn't even have an open mind to what you want. Client wants to do higher weight, lower reps, his response is "hell no"

Sounds like a douchebag to me. He should explain to you his reasoning at the minimum.

[Vonkrumm]

SS is king for beginners regarless of what your goals are.

This. I aint no pro when it comes to weight training but common sense points towards SS regardless. I just wasn't completely sure...
I almost cried when we went 2x15 for deadlifts. Had a whine then he showed me this Tom Platz guy SQ'ing 500lbs x 23...

My certification instructed me to start clients with a goal for strength on 12-15 rep sets for at least a month, based on conditioning before moving to lower rep, higher intensity sets such as the starting strength routine .... Don't feel bad about starting out really light or doing pushups as you say.... I've seen plenty of rank beginners who can't even do a single pushup, men and women.

And this. Thanks guys for the well rounded answers, not "Slap your trainer and do SS" - I did lol but
It's a small gym, the only real one in town, so I can't go off on my own, do 3x5 at 75%RM and blow my back. Going to get a second opinion from another trainer in town and go from there.

<3

[KyleAaron]

There's nothing magical about Starting Strength. In a progressive resistance routine you need five things:

• a squat
• a push
• a pull
• a hip hinge
• in each workout, do more weight or more reps or more sets than you did before

If you do that, you'll get stronger. Eat plenty of good food and your muscles will grow and/or you'll lose body fat.

Starting Strength like a stack of other routines out there is simply a structured way to cover those basic movements and make sure you do more in every session than you did before. Most people fck around chopping and changing their workout and not progressing the resistance, not doing more in every session. SS is aimed at people who'll be working out on their own, so Rip keeps it simple, "just do work sets of 3x5 in squat, bench and press, 1x5 in deadlift and 5x3 in cleans, if you complete the target reps add weight next session."

5 reps are chosen because lower than that will usually mean the person uses more weight than they can handle and they will fck up the movement, higher reps means they will fatigue and fck up the movement. Fcking up the movement is a major risk of working out on your own, which SS assumes you'll do. But if you have someone watching every rep, then you are at much less risk of fcking up the movement.

If you have never heard of 20 rep squats, then not only are you generally ignorant of strength training, you have not even read Starting Strength. It's usually best to actually read something before quoting it to support your views.

Squat, push, pull, hip hinge, do more in every session than you did before. If tomorrow you walk into the gym and clean the 20kg bar just once, front squat it once, press it once, and do a single chinup, and then in every workout add a pound to the bar or to your body when chinning, or do another rep in that first set or do another set, then over time you'll get stronger. Whether that leads to work sets of 3x5, 2x10, 1x20, 6x6 or whatever is not that important. All that matters is that you do more in every session than you did before.

I have trained people giving them exclusively 5 reps, or only sets of 20 on squat, or 5 sets of 5 on deadlift, 5 sets of 3, and so on. They all got stronger.

I have given them 20 rep back squats on Monday, 5x3 front squats with the same weight on Wednesday, and 3x5 back squats with 25% more weight on Friday. They all got stronger, too.

I have run a 6 week kettlebell course where people used an 8, 12 or 16kg kettlebell for the whole session where they began with goblet squats, presses, rows and hip hinges, and we didn't count reps we just did each movement for a minute at the person's own pace; in following weeks we added high pulls, swings, snatches and cleans. Press was the weakest movement, so when the person could press the weight without pauses for half a minute on each side, I got them to use the heavier kettlebell next time. Guess what? Everyone got stronger.

I have helped train army recruit courses where not a single barbell was ever used, people did lots of pushups, squat jumps, chinups, burpees, and sometimes carried logs and cement filled artillery shells. Do you think they got stronger?

Squat, push, pull, hip hinge, do more in every session than you did before, and eat good food. If your trainer has you do this, then they have basically the right idea. Exact sets and reps are irrelevant. Sets and reps matter to all advanced and some intermediate trainees, not to beginners. You're a beginner.

I suspect ignorance is the case here. Doing pulls from the rack with 35kg is what you get people to do when they have atrocious bodily awareness and can't keep their lower backs straight. I'd bet money that when someone asks you to do a hip hinge you just flex your lumbar spine.

In this your PT is very probably blameworthy, since part of a PT's job is to educate you about lifting and your body. All the clients I have know why we're doing each exercise, and are well aware of restrictions in the movements of each of their joints, etc.

As well he should be able to coach you to a proper hip hinge movement in 7 weeks.

Poor communication, evidently. Talk to him, not us.

[Iceman1800]

If I hired someone to paint my house and he started painting the wrong color, I'm going to tell him what color I want. Of course this should have already been discussed but if he argues and still wants to paint it his color, I'm finding a new painter.

[jeffsmith2]

Look at it this way, OP. Your trainer is in the service industry and you're paying him to provide the service of personal training. If you're not happy with the training you are receiving you can ask him to change his methods. If he won't you can decide to follow his prescription or cut ties.

[KyleAaron]

If I hired someone to paint my house and he started painting the wrong color, I'm going to tell him what color I want. Of course this should have already been discussed but if he argues and still wants to paint it his color, I'm finding a new painter.

And if I were your painter, I'd explain that before we can paint it your colour, we have to sand it down and give it an undercoat. It doesn't matter if you want it painted off-white, sandy beige, or bright pink, either way it needs a sanding and an undercoat. We could just slap your desired colour of paint on straight away, but it wouldn't stick, and that would be me doing a crappy job - you can do a crappy job by yourself without paying me to do it. You hired me to paint your house, either give up your deposit and I'll head off for coffee while you fck it up by yourself, or get down off the goddamn ladder and let me do the fckin' job.

The OP is a beginner. Whatever he wants for his body, he needs to do the basics first. I see you Iceman have a 606 deadlift, fantastic - but maybe you've had it so long you've forgotten what it was to be a clueless beginner. Maybe you were a natural athlete from 12 years old and never had to be coached, maybe you never looked around you while lifting at a mainstream gym and saw that at least two-thirds of the people there are dead-set certain they can coach themselves, and they never get any results at all.

If the PT has got him pulling 35kg in the rack, there'll be a reason for that. Most likely the guy can't hinge his hips properly or has some injury history.

Maybe I'm wrong. I invite the OP to post a form check video of his deadlift. I doubt he will, though. Every day the PT subforum gets someone wandering in going, "my/all PTs are morons haha lol." This is the reason so few knowledgeable PTs stay in this forum more than a couple of weeks, it gets fckin' tedious, to be honest.

[Iceman1800]

Hopefully my post didn't come across as trying to insult pt's.

[ts65]

And if I were your painter, I'd explain that before we can paint it your colour, we have to sand it down and give it an undercoat. It doesn't matter if you want it painted off-white, sandy beige, or bright pink, either way it needs a sanding and an undercoat. We could just slap your desired colour of paint on straight away, but it wouldn't stick, and that would be me doing a crappy job - you can do a crappy job by yourself without paying me to do it. You hired me to paint your house, either give up your deposit and I'll head off for coffee while you fck it up by yourself, or get down off the goddamn ladder and let me do the fckin' job.

The OP is a beginner. Whatever he wants for his body, he needs to do the basics first. I see you Iceman have a 606 deadlift, fantastic - but maybe you've had it so long you've forgotten what it was to be a clueless beginner. Maybe you were a natural athlete from 12 years old and never had to be coached, maybe you never looked around you while lifting at a mainstream gym and saw that at least two-thirds of the people there are dead-set certain they can coach themselves, and they never get any results at all.

If the PT has got him pulling 35kg in the rack, there'll be a reason for that. Most likely the guy can't hinge his hips properly or has some injury history.

Maybe I'm wrong. I invite the OP to post a form check video of his deadlift. I doubt he will, though. Every day the PT subforum gets someone wandering in going, "my/all PTs are morons haha lol." This is the reason so few knowledgeable PTs stay in this forum more than a couple of weeks, it gets fckin' tedious, to be honest.

Of course, but it sounds like OP's PT didn't take the time to day to explain why they're doing the exercises they're doing.

That, is not OK.

[scarboro]

The OP hasn't mentioned any injuries so it's more likely to assume he's healthy. In that case lifting 35kg off a rack is absolutely useless for him.

[jeffsmith2]

The OP hasn't mentioned any injuries so it's more likely to assume he's healthy. In that case lifting 35kg off a rack is absolutely useless for him.

There's no way to say whether or not the weight is useful or useless for him without being there to actually see how the OP is performing the lifts.

[Vonkrumm]

Every day the PT subforum gets someone wandering in going, "my/all PTs are morons haha lol." This is the reason so few knowledgeable PTs stay in this forum more than a couple of weeks, it gets fckin' tedious, to be honest.

I have paid almost $800 for a service that I expect to be at least "decent". Please don't put words in my mouth I was trying to clarify the comments I got on other threads that said what I was doing was crap. Not from my mouth... I trust my trainier knows what he's talking about, hence why I'm still doing the high rep stuff. You sound like you know what you're talking about, minus the weak metaphors and the odd contradiction, but that's the funny thing about fitness, there are so many experts out there its hard to know who to listen too. To be frank that **** gets tiering also... after 3 forums, 4 threads and 20 hours research, I'm back to where I started....

Any who, thanks for a supportive argument to the high rep stuff. I believe what I do doesn't really matter, as long as I'm "progressing".

And if we're on the topic of metaphors, I would paint my house with a spray gun instead of a hand brush... just wondering if I am using the spray gun for weight training, that's all

[Vonkrumm]

There's no way to say whether or not the weight is useful or useless for him without being there to actually see how the OP is performing the lifts.

The deadlift is without doubt the hardest to keep correct from. But as I said before, my form is fine. I pay $50 a pop for a PT to tell me this....

[scarboro]

There's no way to say whether or not the weight is useful or useless for him without being there to actually see how the OP is performing the lifts.

In what universe is a 35kg RACK PULL for a 105kg male after multiple sessions of deadlifting somehow providing any stimulus?


Vonkrumm, it seems you're interested in strength training rather than someone holding your hand as you do bosu ball pushups.

Here's a link providing hundreds of sources for programming/info.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=386505

Here's a vid teaching the deadlift properly. On their channel they have almost every lift you'd need explained extremely well.

[rsbones]

Fwiw, I'm a skinny runner type, 43 years old and 66kg. I wanted to give running a rest and do some strength training so I grabbed my old copy of Starting Strength off the shelf to refresh my memory and started doing squats and deadlift and press two to three days a week. I add 5 or 10 pounds each workout and I started a month ago and am now squatting worksets at 160lbs/72kg and deadlifting 210lbs/95kg. And it still feels relatively easy, even without eating a lot, though I have upped my protein to at least 120g a day. (As a runner I really don't want to weigh much more and if that means I top out at a 300lb/136kg dead and 225lb/102kg squat, then fine).

All I'm saying is, it isn't rocket science unless you have some issues that your trainer is seeing and that's why they are being cautious with you. The trainer should explain to you why they have you at such low weight and high reps though and if s/he can't, then they probably aren't the right trainer for you.

[jeffsmith2]

scarboro, you must be an excellent trainer that you can know how strong a client is when you've never met them, seen their form on any lift or know their health/fitness history. When your clients come to you and they tell you their form is perfect, do you take their word on it? One of the first things you learn is one approach doesn't fit everyone and some people start at a much lower level than others. The fact he weights 105kg has no bearing on what he weighs. It sounds like perhaps ego is getting involved and you need to leave the ego at the door.

OP, you say your form is great on the deadlift. Great. Maybe your trainer sees differently and isn't ready to progress you further. Any trainer who a) never met you, b) doesn't know your health/injury/fitness history c) never examined your form on lifts, and tries to give you a be-all, end-all program is a poor trainer. Would you trust a random doctor seriously who prescribed you medicine over the phone without an examination and knowledge of your health history? I wouldn't.

OP, go talk to your trainer and if you aren't happy with his explanations, dump him.

In what universe is a 35kg RACK PULL for a 105kg male after multiple sessions of deadlifting somehow providing any stimulus?


Vonkrumm, it seems you're interested in strength training rather than someone holding your hand as you do bosu ball pushups.

Here's a link providing hundreds of sources for programming/info.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=386505

Here's a vid teaching the deadlift properly. On their channel they have almost every lift you'd need explained extremely well.

[Vonkrumm]

I have seen that deadlift video. I've seen them all. For the last time my form is fine. Even if it isn't, my trainer thinks it is so this can't be the reason he wont let me do 3x5's...

On another note, I have read in another thread from two reliable sources (lots of rep), that the 12-15 rep range is fine for the first 3 months as a beginner. This is the stuff I was looking for...

Now how the hell can you say "form is paramount when perfroming the DL" and "beginners should learn propper from first", then go and give a beginnner a program that consists of 1x5 DL's. It just doesn't make sense and I can sure as sh*t see where my trainer is coming from...

Jim wendler says it doesn't matter what routine you do, just have a plan. 3x5, 3x8, 2x12, 5x5... whatever right? Or wrong?

Also I read about the 20 SQ thing but that is supposed to be @ your 10 rep max. Seems kinda irrelevent, thanks for making things more difficult.

[jeffsmith2]

You will learn proper form with no weight on the bar, or no bar at all at first. You aren't learning form when doing the 1x5 working set for deadlifts that SS suggests. You should know how to do a proper deadlift before adding 70-80% of your 1RM required for sets in starting strength. Before doing any structured resistance program, you should learn proper form for all the exercises.

You should have a plan, but for non-athletes you'll find it's very hard for a trainer to have any client stick to it. I have a general idea for each client I train, but I don't periodize it down to a science because they all have way too many interruptions or other factors getting in the way.

OP, I'm not saying your form is bad. I'm saying a trainer over the internet can't really give you an answer one way or another without seeing you in person. You'll need to get the answers from your trainer.

[untranslatedZA]

inb4 everyone realizes that that less than 1% of pros have 100% perfect lift
inb4 you realize that adding weight will change OP's form

60kg DL do NOTHING for my max form. Your form WILL change going from minimal weights to proper working set weights.

If u want to lift heavy tell your trainer u want to, no more high rep **** for anything other than warmup. Going heavy early isnt guna slow down your progression, since you would possibly have to relearn how to deadlift when u get heavy weights, since your body does things under strain it doesnt do under light weights. When i start a wide stance squat my toes are pointing forward. After 3 reps they are 45 degrees, and i dont even feel them move.

[KyleAaron]

Of course, but it sounds like OP's PT didn't take the time to day to explain why they're doing the exercises they're doing.

That, is not OK.

I agree. But maybe the OP didn't ask, or maybe the PT tried to tell him but the OP's eyes glazed over in boredom, or maybe he told him and the OP didn't absorb it. I've had all of these happen. I always explain it to people, but often they're not interested or don't absorb it. I've got one guy who's done kettlebell snatches in 30 separate sessions. When I say, "now snatch," he always hesitates and says, "that's...?" and I have to mime it for him and then he remembers. Not coincidentally, he's one who has difficulty in maintaining good lumbar and thoracic extension in the deadlift and other exercises.

All would become clearer with a form check video, which we are unlikely to ever see.

[Vonkrumm]

60kg DL do NOTHING for my max form. Your form WILL change going from minimal weights to proper working set weights.

Ah yes I have noticed this. On other exercises (OHP anyone) when I am allowed to push towards my RM, form is incredibly hard to keep. Also my DL form will suffer again as I haven't even learnt to lift from the floor yet...

Anyway why are we still talking about form? It's irrelevant I told you...

I want to know why my trainer would keep me on high reps if he thinks my form is good?

But maybe the OP didn't ask, or maybe the PT tried to tell him but the OP's eyes glazed over in boredom, or maybe he told him and the OP didn't absorb it.

I am unsure why, Kyle, you are still making more "assumptions" that are based on your moronic clients?

All would become clearer with a form check video, which we are unlikely to ever see.

I cheated 2 work outs ago and put 40kg on the bar (~50kg). Another trainer came over and watched me (I suspect he new I hadn't done it before) and despite feeling guilty, distracted, and flat out anxious that I was performing a sin, I pulled out 10+ reps. After he goes "well done, good form".

Anyway back "on topic", this comes from a reliable guy...

If you are new to lifting, I would not recommend lifting in the 6-8 rep range. You need to focus on learning proper technique and form, as well as getting the body adapted to working out. 12-15 reps should be the norm for at least the first three months. Lifting too heavy too soon can lead to injury at worse and faulty form at the least.

So why is a 1x5 DL suggested in SS? Any positive comments welcome....

[KyleAaron]

I am unsure why, Kyle, you are still making more "assumptions" that are based on your moronic clients?

Say what you like about me, but don't insult my clients. They work hard and get good results, I have a 50yo 4'11" 100lb woman who deadlifted more than you after the same training, and she has low-grade multiple sclerosis. Now get the fck out of this subforum and go talk to your trainer, we're done with you.