Jim Stoppani's 12 Week Shortcut To Size

[simmouk87]

This program has just made it into the 'Top Workouts' category.

bodybuilding.com/fun/shortcut-to-size .html

As someone who is currently looking for a beginners program to follow. What do you all think?

My goals are maximum muscle mass.

Weight 170 LBS
Height 6 FT
BF 16%

I like the look of this program but my only reservation is that i should be working each muscle group twice a week with compound lifts to take advantage of noob gains and faster recoveries. Am I right or is a 4 day split ok going to have the same effect.

I was going to follow Kris Gethins program but that is too much 'cut' for me.

Please take the time to reply as I'm supposed to be starting a program on Monday. I've spent over a month reading, researching, buying tupperware, supps and gym equipment and freezing meat from the wholesalers!

All I need to do is choose a program to give me max noob gains and aesthetics.

Thanks

[ironwill2008]

Jim Stoppani's 12 Week Shortcut To Size

Kris Gethins program

Neither of these are suitable for the average beginner; too much volume and not nearly enough body part frequency. The nutrition and supplement advices that go along with both of those "programs" suck as well; they're geared strictly towards getting you to spend a pile of money on a boatload of mostly useless supplements.





Look no further than here:



Beginner bodybuilding program:
*Routine: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4195843




No requirement for supplements at your level; learn how to eat first. This thread will explain all the steps to figure your baseline of required protein, fat, carbs, and calories:
*Emma-Leigh's calorie/macro thread: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=121703981



Buy an inexpensive food scale (~$30 at any big-box discount store), weigh your portions, and track them here: http://fitday.com[/QUOTE]

[simmouk87]

Thanks for your reply. I have already studied those and hundreds of other threads / articles on nutrition. The actual program is the only the area I am now unsure of.

I agree that the BB programs are aimed at selling supplements. I have already purchased the bare essentials. I have twice tried programs (an older Gethin program and Rippetoe's Starting Strength) but now I realise the importance of diet (before I didn't). This is why I have purchased scales, grilling machine, veg steamer 40 tupperware tubs and a 5 pack 6 meal bag (Bodybuilding cool bag). I have also sourced a source of quality bulk meat.

This program is endorsed by bb.com as a beginners program and have clearly put lots of thought and effort into it. Can you / someone give me a bit more of a detailed explanation of why this program is wouldn't be suitable for a beginner.

I do believe there is some substance in the argument of not enough compound lifts / frequency to take advantage of the newbie gains. But why would BB put together such a well though out programme?

I appreciate the Allpro programme but I'm just not 'feeling it'. Can anybody give me some more recomendations or should I take the advice I've been given.

Thanks again

[ironwill2008]

This program is endorsed by bb.com as a beginners program and have clearly put lots of thought and effort into it.

A year or two from now, after you've figured out what works and what doesn't, and have made some good progress, you'll realize how off-the-mark "endorsed by bb.com" sounds to you. Just about any experienced trainee posting on this site, and who has no financial interest in selling you supplements, will tell you basically the same thing--to stay away from the articles and advice found in the "Super Site" (their term, not mine), and to search out the information you seek by looking in the stickies at the top of each forum, and by following advice from experienced posters who have already walked the path you're just how stepping onto.

Can you / someone give me a bit more of a detailed explanation of why this program is wouldn't be suitable for a beginner.

A beginner doesn't yet have the ability to train a muscle group hard enough to require more than a few day's recovery before he can beneficially train it again. One of the basic tenets of weight training is to train a muscle just as often as you possibly are able, within the limits of your recovery ability. IOW, if you can recover (and thus grow) from training your legs three times a week, it makes no sense at all to only train them once a week, as you'd be doing with a split routine. In effect, you'd simply be re-covering the same ground every week, and progress will be slow. Usually slow enough that the trainee will either become disscouraged and quit, or start looking for some outside source of potential progress. And the muscle magazines are crammed with impressive-looking ads promising the world for only $59.95 for a month's supply.




Eventually, you'll get to a point where progress with a Full Body, 3-day-a-week program will begin to stall. The obvious solution to this problem will be to add more work for each body part to the routine. But this presents another couple of problems; one, more and more sets/exercises make the day's workout longer and longer, and there's a limit to how much productive work someone can do in one workout. The issue of recovery also becomes a problem with working body parts 3 times a week at this point; large muscle groups may now require as much as 96 hours to completey recover, or at least recover enough to be able to be productively trained again. The only answer to these problems is to then split the body into muscle groups, and train each group less frequently. But by now, the trainee is far from beginner stage, and will benefit from the reduced frequency/increased body part volume.

Not trying to write a book here; the wheel has already been invented.



Do some more research, then make up your own mind on how to proceed. Good luck.

[ShaneSwan]

Good advice already here, but just to reiterate:

My goals are maximum muscle mass.

Maximum muscle mass would take more like 12 years of training, not 12 weeks. There's nothing inherrently 'wrong' with Stoppani's program, its just that there are more efficient program's out there geared specifically towards progressing beginners as quickly as possible.

My advice: dont squander your newbie potential on a program like Stopanni's.

[pharaoh03]

Jim's shortcut to size program SAYS it's for both beginners and advanced lifters. Why would he lie? I just don't get how you guys can invalidate a scientific program made by someone like Jim. I think you guys are full of it. Like, who to trust- Jim Stoppani or some random guy on the forum? I think i'll go with Jim.

It says it's beginner-compatible. You're saying Jim is blatantly lying to sell supplements?

[ShaneSwan]

Dude, no-one (that Im aware of) has said Stoppani's program will not work *at all*. But, here's the thing: for nigh on all novice lifters, the 'best' programs are those geared specifically towards them. For the typical novice, there is an optimal frequency and volume structure. Also, the typical novice dosnt require such techniques as periodisation, rest-pause, drop sets, etc in order to progress. Why? Because the typical novice will progress with much simpler principles.

So why use intermediate-advanced techniques when you dont require them? Why not leave them until you do; makes sense to me *shrug*

[pharaoh03]

Dude, no-one (that Im aware of) has said Stoppani's program will not work *at all*. But, here's the thing: for nigh on all novice lifters, the 'best' programs are those geared specifically towards them. For the typical novice, there is an optimal frequency and volume structure. Also, the typical novice dosnt require such techniques as periodisation, rest-pause, drop sets, etc in order to progress. Why? Because the typical novice will progress with much simpler principles.

So why use intermediate-advanced techniques when you dont require them? Why not leave them until you do; makes sense to me *shrug*

IDK, but he says beginners can use the program. The techniques obviously are not required for novices, but apparently it gets results for them or he wouldn't have assured that beginners can use it. What if the program is better for beginners than a boring, typical 3-day full body routine? It's not like he's experimenting, it's scientifically-backed. How can u argue that?

[Jasonk282]

. What if the program is better for beginners than a boring, typical 3-day full body routine? It's not like he's experimenting, it's scientifically-backed. How can u argue that?

Fullbody programs have been around, and been working, since before Dr. Jim...how can you argue with that?

[OneSwoleBro]

Incline Dumbbell Flye 3 x 3-5

that's all.

[ShaneSwan]

IDK, but he says beginners can use the program.

Sure; again, I dont think anyone is saying beginners *cant* use the program. I think it comes down to bang-for-your-buck: for all the programs any beginner will experience gains with, what is the rate of progression and how sustainable is that progression (all else being equal) with each? As far as Im concerned, those considerations are fundamental in assessing any beginner routine (or any routine at all for that matter).

With a typical 3day full body program strength progression in the core lifts is made more sustainable due to minimising the often detrimental effects too much accessory work causes.

The techniques obviously are not required for novices, but apparently it gets results for them or he wouldn't have assured that beginners can use it.

I ask again why use a technique that isnt required? Novice's are fortunate to be in the position they are: progression on the most basic principles! Why throw in other stuff that could adversely effect quality (rate/sustainability) of progression? For a novice, intermediate-advanced techniques are not going to improve quality of progression; proven novice routines are designed to optimise this quality (rate/sustainability). That is what they are designed to do.

What if the program is better for beginners than a boring, typical 3-day full body routine?

Better, how? Sure, if you find 3day boring, then the placebo effect will likely play a role in quality of progress. I certainly wouldnt try and 'force' someone into a program they felt so strongly against. All one can do is try and appeal to their reason.

It's not like he's experimenting, it's scientifically-backed. How can u argue that?

Yes, of course. Has anyone done any controlled examination of the quality of progression various protocols have on novice lifters, though? And Im talking long term (6-12 months) sustainable progression. All I am aware of in this regard is based on anecdotal 'natural selection': over time (years, decades), various protocols are proposed and tried, and those that are 'better' tend to become more widely used. Obvious case in point is the principles Starting Strength is based on.

[Farley1324]

Too long, didn't read.

Also, nothing with the word "shortcut" or "secret" in the title is worth a flying rat turd. Unless they are referring to steroids as the shortcut.

A year or two from now, after you've figured out what works and what doesn't, and have made some good progress, you'll realize how off-the-mark "endorsed by bb.com" sounds to you. Just about any experienced trainee posting on this site, and who has no financial interest in selling you supplements, will tell you basically the same thing--to stay away from the articles and advice found in the "Super Site" (their term, not mine), and to search out the information you seek by looking in the stickies at the top of each forum, and by following advice from experienced posters who have already walked the path you're just how stepping onto.

This

[pharaoh03]

I don't get what you're saying, but whatever. So how long do you have to do a 3-day beginner routine till you can move onto intermediate 4-day split like shortcut to size? 6 weeks?

[Farley1324]

I don't get what you're saying, but whatever. So how long do you have to do a 3-day beginner routine till you can move onto intermediate 4-day split like shortcut to size? 6 weeks?

6 week is nothing.

You don't HAVE to follow a 3 day beginner routine.

Listen to Ironwill on this

[pharaoh03]

6 week is nothing.

You don't HAVE to follow a 3 day beginner routine.

Listen to Ironwill on this

well by "have to", i mean to get optimal results. not literally "have to", y'know...

[ShaneSwan]

I don't get what you're saying, but whatever. So how long do you have to do a 3-day beginner routine till you can move onto intermediate 4-day split like shortcut to size? 6 weeks?

How long would 'you' stay on a 3 day beginner routine before switching to an intermediate program? Until linear progression has been drained. What do I mean by 'linear progression' here? Consistent macro progression; ie you may not progress each and every workout due to infrequent deloads, but you consistently progress every week.

Typically, beginner routines do not have micro deloads (undulating periodisation) built into them, whereas intermediate ones tend to.

Cliffs: stay training as novice for as long as possible (as long as one is still seeing the appropriate progression this way).

[pharaoh03]

How long would 'you' stay on a 3 day beginner routine before switching to an intermediate program? Until linear progression has been drained. What do I mean by 'linear progression' here? Consistent macro progression; ie you may not progress each and every workout due to infrequent deloads, but you consistently progress every week.

Typically, beginner routines do not have micro deloads (undulating periodisation) built into them, whereas intermediate ones tend to.

Cliffs: stay training as novice for as long as possible (as long as one is still seeing the appropriate progression this way).

Honestly i would be completely fine with taking my time as a novice IF you can develope an athletic, explosive physique (i.e. for basketball) at beginner stage. Can u? I know this isn't the sports section, but i'd like to know. Is the length of the beginner phase the same for strength (sport-oriented) programs as it is for bodybuilding and mass building programs? if that makes sense to u...

[ShaneSwan]

Honestly i would be completely fine with taking my time as a novice IF you can develope an athletic, explosive physique (i.e. for basketball) at beginner stage. Can u? I know this isn't the sports section, but i'd like to know. Is the length of the beginner phase the same for strength (sport-oriented) programs as it is for bodybuilding and mass building programs? if that makes sense to u...

AFAIK, most widely used/recommended novice programs are strength programs. Just look at Starting Strength, or the good old Bill Starr protocols.

Look, asking for a numerical value (in terms of weeks/months) for the beginner phase is like asking how long is a piece of string; it varies. But what is common to *all* variations (of beginner phases, not string) is progression capacity.

If youve been training for 6 weeks with classic linear progression, youre a novice.
If youve been training for 6 months with classic linear progression, youre a novice.
etc etc

You move to an intermediate program when linear progression is drained. Inetrmediate programs may use exactly the same excercises and rep ranges, but the intensity (%1rm) and volume will be periodised; that is, deloads (micro and/or macro) will be built into the program. On a novice program, deloading is typically not built into the program.

[mrmrbill]

Honestly i would be completely fine with taking my time as a novice IF you can develope an athletic, explosive physique (i.e. for basketball) at beginner stage. Can u? I know this isn't the sports section, but i'd like to know. Is the length of the beginner phase the same for strength (sport-oriented) programs as it is for bodybuilding and mass building programs? if that makes sense to u...

Pharoah, if "explosive" sports-oriented stuff is more your interest, Starting Strength would be more your avenue than Stoppani's, just based on the exercises involved. Stoppani's 2 "Shortcut" programs are bodybuilding oriented rather than sports performance. The first one (the one published Feb 2012) rushes a beginner through just a few weeks of 3x frequency, and drops the beginner into 2, 3, 4 day splits -- lower and lower frequency down to 1x -- over the course of 3 months. Real noob gains can be had for a year, so Stoppani's program really shortchanges a beginner. His second one ("Microcycles", earlier this month) is even less beginner-friendly (per his own commentary).

The idea of the first one to push beginners into lower frequency splits -- each one lasting just a few weeks -- is absolutely silly. Might as well go for P90X-style "musckel confusion". He's not the first idiot to rely on a PhD for selling purposes.

[pharaoh03]

Pharoah, if "explosive" sports-oriented stuff is more your interest, Starting Strength would be more your avenue than Stoppani's, just based on the exercises involved. Stoppani's 2 "Shortcut" programs are bodybuilding oriented rather than sports performance. The first one (the one published Feb 2012) rushes a beginner through just a few weeks of 3x frequency, and drops the beginner into 2, 3, 4 day splits -- lower and lower frequency down to 1x -- over the course of 3 months. Real noob gains can be had for a year, so Stoppani's program really shortchanges a beginner. His second one ("Microcycles", earlier this month) is even less beginner-friendly (per his own commentary).

The idea of the first one to push beginners into lower frequency splits -- each one lasting just a few weeks -- is absolutely silly. Might as well go for P90X-style "musckel confusion". He's not the first idiot to rely on a PhD for selling purposes.

I don't know of Starting Strength. Info? Link?

[BlooDIsTHickeR]

"I like the look of this program but my only reservation is that i should be working each muscle group twice a week with compound lifts to take advantage of noob gains and faster recoveries."

If only every newbie was like you.

[Jasonk282]

want to be explosive for sports...do starting strength OR WS4SB...stop looking at Jim's 'program'...it's not built for your needs.

[jtheinbaugh]

I have been working through an Ian King plan taken from the Book of Muscle. Completed a couple stages of the Intermediate phase but Stoppani's plan seems very aggressive and I am going to try to give it a go. Once I complete the 12-week Stoppani program I am going to return to Ian King's program but at the Advanced level.

[pharaoh03]

want to be explosive for sports...do starting strength OR WS4SB...stop looking at Jim's 'program'...it's not built for your needs.

again, can i get a link to starting strength? or info? idk about it

[ShaneSwan]

Sticky in teen forum: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=131379243

[mrmrbill]

again, can i get a link to starting strength? or info? idk about it

There are some FAQs here at bb.com that you can locate via search. Also, the SS main site: http://startingstrength.com/index.php

[pharaoh03]

ok, i went to that thread with the FAQ's. can i just read that post for now, and start the program? i just want the program and the info i NEED for the program. what do i have to read for that? kinda overwhelming

[ShaneSwan]

Holy fck dude do you need me to copypasta the relevant parts of the thread?

[simmouk87]

Thanks to all those that have posted valuable information. I have taken it all on-board and will be following a beginner orientated workout with a focus on a full body workout 3 times per week.

@Ironwill Your first post was enough to steer me in the right direction, I was simply curious and eager to learn more hence the questioning. Thanks for the good advice that I will now be following :-)

To the other newbies....

Don't be so lazy, read the stickies. I spent many hours of research before even bothering the experienced guys with questions. It is not hard to find info on SS! The ones with the knowledge aren't going to help you if you don't put the time in yourself. Don't go hijacking other people's threads with stupid questions.

Thanks again to all those who have taken the time to help me out (including the sticky authors). I now have everything I need to start. Just waiting on my 60 chicken breasts, 30 steaks, 30 turkey breast and liquid egg whites to arrive :-)

[Jasonk282]

You don't have to wait for food to arrive to start the program. You'll make gains just through netural adapation.

Also...fck egg whites...eat the whole egg.