Pull Ups/Dips - Don't use an assist machine!

[CodhubIV]

So, I was going to the gym 6 days a week up until about 9 months ago:

Upper, lower, cardio, upper, lower, cardio, REST

Mainly using machines. The dip/pull up assist machine was one of them, and one that I was making very-very slow progress on (if not static most the time).


So then my wife was on bed-rest whilst pregnant so I couldn't get out, everything ground to a halt. Now the kids have popped out, still busy but I got a lot of home gym equipment for the basement, including a power-tower and a bench-press.

First day back, I could not do a single dip (could only make it maybe 50% back up again), and a pull-up from a static position, I could not get off the floor more than an inch or two (I'd always done both at the gym with about 80lbs of assistance).

So I kept at it, just pushing and pulling as hard as I could without supporting myself. Complimented with lots of bench presses, and pulling myself toward the bar at a 90 degree angle (not sure what you call those) to strengthen my back along with some negative pull-ups.


About a month after I started I can now do 10, 8, 6 on the dips. Pull-ups, still cannot do a single rep but earlier today I pulled myself up from static about 80% of the way -- Which is way-way more than I expected after this period of time - A couple of reps can only be a week or two away :-)


So, just my 50 cents, but don't bother with the assist machines. I'd heard people say similar before but I thought why would it hurt? Surely it's just progressive like anything else.


But I was wrong! Don't ask me why though.

[CodhubIV]

Thank you for this ingenious revelation. I'll be sure to add it to my list of useless information.

Geez, is everyone around here such a prick?

Surely you could tell from the subject line what the post was going to be about, if you already knew, why read it! ;-)

[XtremeOCD]

"Assist machines" are just that...Machines that assist you in doing a particular exercise. It's not a bad thing totally as you can make progress with whatever your goals are using them once you are hitting your muscles hard enough, but comparing say an us-assisted dip to an assisted dip is like comparing apples to oranges. Just like you can't compare say bb bench press and db bench press with one another although both are un-assisted bench presses. Your max weight for both will be totally different. I guess this is where people foul up expecting they can do the same thing they do assisted un-assisted. My buddy said he benched 90lbs with a machine to assist him. I asked him to try it with a barbel only and let me know how he does. He came back and said he was swaying the bar all over the place at just 40 lbs and didn't understand why. This is why I don't use anything assisted. That and because you can activate other muscles at the same time you would use as stabilizers that never come into play with assisted machines.

[CodhubIV]

"Assist machines" are just that...Machines that assist you in doing a particular exercise. It's not a bad thing totally as you can make progress with whatever your goals are using them once you are hitting your muscles hard enough, but comparing say an us-assisted dip to an assisted dip is like comparing apples to oranges. Just like you can't compare say bb bench press and db bench press with one another although both are un-assisted bench presses. Your max weight for both will be totally different. I guess this is where people foul up expecting they can do the same thing they do assisted un-assisted. My buddy said he benched 90lbs with a machine to assist him. I asked him to try it with a barbel only and let me know how he does. He came back and said he was swaying the bar all over the place at just 40 lbs and didn't understand why. This is why I don't use anything assisted. That and because you can activate other muscles at the same time you would use as stabilizers that never come into play with assisted machines.

Indeed, I found moving from the press machine to the bench press very hard. The bar was wobbling around like anything, I couldn't lift much. It took a while for the stabilizing muscles to help out.

[Yodums]

Geez, is everyone around here such a prick?

Surely you could tell from the subject line what the post was going to be about, if you already knew, why read it! ;-)

Because your subject line is telling others to not use assisted machines. People are going to come in and clear up misinformation.

[CodhubIV]

Because your subject line is telling others to not use assisted machines. People are going to come in and clear up misinformation.

Which he didn't do

[Tyciol]

don't bother with the assist machines. Surely it's just progressive like anything else. But I was wrong! Don't ask me why though.

Nice opinion. Maybe you just didn't push yourself that hard on the assisted versions of the exercise.

Progressive resistance works. If you failed to add reps or resistance (via decreased assistance) I don't see how this would be the failure of the assisted versions of the exercise.

[RugbyTank]

Thank you for this ingenious revelation. I'll be sure to add it to my list of useless information.

No, thank you for i much appreciated the lol'd it gave me

As far as being useless to compliment or achieve a goal of hitting 1-pullup, I couldn't disagree.

Use the assisted pull-up machine with a various other of exercises, bust your @ss and without A doubt it will all help to be a summation of helping you achieve a pull up.

I would find it useless if its the onlything you are using to build up your back to help you get a to a pull-up status

[CodhubIV]

No, just me, but thank you I'm flattered. It comes naturally.

I also become annoyed when posters use their personal experiences as an absolute.

Nice opinion. Maybe you just didn't push yourself that hard on the assisted versions of the exercise.

Progressive resistance works. If you failed to add reps or resistance (via decreased assistance) I don't see how this would be the failure of the assisted versions of the exercise.

Which is everything surely? What else is there apart from opinion in this game?

A lot of people say stay away from assisted pull-ups/dips (Google it), a lot of people say it's fine (Google it).

Opinion.

And there's mine, my personal story. I used to think assisted was fine as you would progress, I was giving it my all, but it didn't do anything for me. Perhaps the unnatural position or center of balance the weight puts you under? I'm not sure.

Everyone is posting opinion, I don't see the problem.

[Tyciol]

"Assist machines" are just that...Machines that assist you in doing a particular exercise. It's not a bad thing totally as you can make progress with whatever your goals are using them once you are hitting your muscles hard enough, but comparing say an us-assisted dip to an assisted dip is like comparing apples to oranges.

Not it isn't. It's basically like comparing pressing 100lbs to pressing 200lbs. The same motion and different levels of difficulty because one requires more tension than the other.

What's next, we can't compare BW chins to weighted chins because strapping weight to our body changes it so fundamentally?

Guess we better not compare assisted squats to BW squats to weighted squats either.

Just like you can't compare say bb bench press and db bench press with one another although both are un-assisted bench presses. Your max weight for both will be totally different.

This is irrelevant.

It's hilarious how people talk about pulling movements being incomparable yet make analogies using even more different exercises like pressing.

People already know that stuff like dips can strengthen the triceps and stuff for things like push ups and bench pressing. But dips have a lot less in common with DB/bar bench pressing than they do with one another.

I guess this is where people foul up expecting they can do the same thing they do assisted un-assisted.

This analogy makes no freakin' sense because dips and chins on an assist machine are always going to be easier because they lighten your weight. So you need to work up to a decent amount of reps on them (with very little assistance) before expecting to be able to do it with full BW. It's the same as pressing 100lbs for 10 reps isn't necessarily going to have you pressing 200lbs for 5 and is going to disappoint many who assume that it will.

Assist machines usually can give a minimum of 10lbs of assistance. If someone is training 20-25 reps and works up (or down, depending on your perspective) to that little assistance, hitting 10 with BW is obviously going to be easy.

My buddy said he benched 90lbs with a machine to assist him. I asked him to try it with a barbel only and let me know how he does. He came back and said he was swaying the bar all over the place at just 40 lbs and didn't understand why.

This is pressing. What your buddy experienced with a machine press not teaching you to stabilize a barbell has zilch all to do with the effectiveness of counterweight machines preparing people to handle their BW with chins/dips.

This is why I don't use anything assisted. That and because you can activate other muscles at the same time you would use as stabilizers that never come into play with assisted machines.

Stabilizers aren't something that require worry for chins, because your centre of mass is below the point of contact.

Dips do require more because your upper body is elevated above the point of contact, but this doesn't negate the effectiveness of a counterweight machine.

As someone begins to use less and less counterweight, the pad you kneel (or stand) on is going to provide less and less stabilization, because more and more weight is born on the hands. That and by learning the movement and performing it through a full range of motion (something you can't do immediately with BW, since people work towards dips that way with partials) they learn to keep balance on the prime movers during the stretched position.

The biggest stability aid in an assisted dip would basically be that you don't have to worry about tilting too far forward or backward. But that's kinda self-correcting. Reason being that as you do either, your legs are going to come off the pad. Your body is going to go "wah, where did my assistance go! I want stability" and stabilize itself by bringing the body into alignment and your legs back in contact with the pad.

Otherwise your head would fall forward and hit the stack or fall backward and you fall off the machine.

An assist pad might align people a bit differently and make the form a bit different, but you'd still be training the same prime movers and this would still prepare you for the BW versions. At which point, you can learn the correct form and stuff, at least until you add weight, because that changes the form and 'balance' all over again.

[CodhubIV]

As far as being useless to compliment or achieve a goal of hitting 1-pullup, I couldn't disagree.

Could you clarify that, it's a double-negative. You think a goal of 1-pullup is useless or not useless?

[CodhubIV]

That is where you went wrong.

I prefer not to take advice from those who have little experience, little scientific knowledge, and those who obtained their so-called "experience" and "knowledge" from articles found on google and bodybuilding magazines.

Well like I said, I tried both, one worked for me a lot better than other.

If you can point me to some scientific studies of assisted 'vs' unassisted pull-us that would be great. Other than that, like everyone else here, I'm recanting my experience.

[acrawlingchaos]

Well like I said, I tried both, one worked for me a lot better than other.

If you can point me to some scientific studies of assisted 'vs' unassisted pull-us that would be great. Other than that, like everyone else here, I'm recanting my experience.

You specifically advised others to not do assisted work. This was poor advice.

While some may not have great experience with assisted work, others have. Each has to figure out what works best for them.

[CodhubIV]

Legitimate posters will rarely give their opinion without being asked. I'm not sure if there are studies nor will I look for them or disagree with you.

All posts are legitimate if they conform to the rules of the forum.

If you have your own >>OPINION<<< on what a legitimate post is, guess that just makes your a hypocrite for pushing it.

Either way, you were being a jerk.

[RugbyTank]

Could you clarify that, it's a double-negative. You think a goal of 1-pullup is useless or not useless?

not sure where you read the double negative but more that I left it incomplete...For clarification:
I agree the Assist Machine will compliment you into getting to the 1-pull up BUT

I do not think it to be useful if its the only thing you are doing to help you achieve your goal, it just isn't sufficient work load for your body. There are exceptions and each situation is different.
Its better than nothing but...think of it like serving tea with just Hot Water and forgetting to add the 'tea leaves'.

[CodhubIV]

You specifically advised others to not do assisted work. This was poor advice.

While some may not have great experience with assisted work, others have. Each has to figure out what works best for them.

And this differs from any other advice posted how? Surely this universally applies.

[RugbyTank]

I will agree with you saying that "generally" people will say Assist pull up machine bad for pulls and just work on Negative's to work for pull-ups.

But like the other guy said,I generally reject what people generally conform to but for the most part its ignorance wrapped in a bow.

[CodhubIV]

Are you breaking up with me? I said legitimate "posters."

One day you might understand the contradiction and hypocrisy in your own words. Not sure what else to say, hit the books maybe, expand your mind so you can take it all in.

[XtremeOCD]

Not it isn't. It's basically like comparing pressing 100lbs to pressing 200lbs. The same motion and different levels of difficulty because one requires more tension than the other.
Therefore they are different not the same.


This is irrelevant.

It's hilarious how people talk about pulling movements being incomparable yet make analogies using even more different exercises like pressing.

People already know that stuff like dips can strengthen the triceps and stuff for things like push ups and bench pressing. But dips have a lot less in common with DB/bar bench pressing than they do with one another.

This analogy makes no freakin' sense because dips and chins on an assist machine are always going to be easier because they lighten your weight. So you need to work up to a decent amount of reps on them (with very little assistance) before expecting to be able to do it with full BW. It's the same as pressing 100lbs for 10 reps isn't necessarily going to have you pressing 200lbs for 5 and is going to disappoint many who assume that it will.

Assist machines usually can give a minimum of 10lbs of assistance. If someone is training 20-25 reps and works up (or down, depending on your perspective) to that little assistance, hitting 10 with BW is obviously going to be easy.

This is pressing. What your buddy experienced with a machine press not teaching you to stabilize a barbell has zilch all to do with the effectiveness of counterweight machines preparing people to handle their BW with chins/dips.

Stabilizers aren't something that require worry for chins, because your centre of mass is below the point of contact.

Dips do require more because your upper body is elevated above the point of contact, but this doesn't negate the effectiveness of a counterweight machine.

As someone begins to use less and less counterweight, the pad you kneel (or stand) on is going to provide less and less stabilization, because more and more weight is born on the hands. That and by learning the movement and performing it through a full range of motion (something you can't do immediately with BW, since people work towards dips that way with partials) they learn to keep balance on the prime movers during the stretched position.

The biggest stability aid in an assisted dip would basically be that you don't have to worry about tilting too far forward or backward. But that's kinda self-correcting. Reason being that as you do either, your legs are going to come off the pad. Your body is going to go "wah, where did my assistance go! I want stability" and stabilize itself by bringing the body into alignment and your legs back in contact with the pad.

Otherwise your head would fall forward and hit the stack or fall backward and you fall off the machine.

An assist pad might align people a bit differently and make the form a bit different, but you'd still be training the same prime movers and this would still prepare you for the BW versions. At which point, you can learn the correct form and stuff, at least until you add weight, because that changes the form and 'balance' all over again.

You read way too much into things dude and over analyze everything (srs). I stopped reading after you quoted basically every line I posted. Assisted and un-assisted aren't the same...Point blank. If they were then they wouldn't be called assisted and un-assisted.

[MichaelCJ]

And this differs from any other advice posted how? Surely this universally applies.

Some people around here not only have a lot more experience in these matters than you, but have also done some research here and there. Including, even, noting the varying experiences of other forum members.

You are not the only one to have his or her post shot down because it's mostly some BS theory based on near total ignorance.


"Not sure what else to say, hit the books maybe, expand your mind so you can take it all in."

^^^ This.

[CodhubIV]

This is one of the most ironic posts I have ever set my eyes upon

No understanding of irony too! You're a regular Eisenstein when you get going.

[CodhubIV]

Some people around here not only have a lot more experience in these matters than you, but have also done some research here and there. Including, even, noting the varying experiences of other forum members.

You are not the only one to have his or her post shot down because it's mostly some BS theory based on near total ignorance.


"Not sure what else to say, hit the books maybe, expand your mind so you can take it all in."

^^^ This.

What has quoting me arguing with someone saying I'm not a legitimate poster got do to with pull-ups and dips?

"^^^This." What???

[mrmrbill]

You specifically advised others to not do assisted work. This was poor advice.

While some may not have great experience with assisted work, others have. Each has to figure out what works best for them.

And this differs from any other advice posted how? Surely this universally applies.

It's like saying that if you don't get laid much, you shouldn't get a hand-job either. In the context of lifting and/or sex, absolutes are problematic and prone to mis-communication.

Should I get a hand-job tonight? I may not be getting laid at this hour, but perhaps some assisted work might provide a reasonable stimulus? As such, w/ full pull-ups vs. the Gravitron 2000 assisted pull up mackchine.

Context is context.

[CodhubIV]

Let me change my word choice since you are having problems with your anal. "Reliable, intelligent posters." you fit in neither of those categories. Refer to post #13 for my reasoning.

Yet more opinion then. Interesting stuff.

[CodhubIV]

It's like saying that if you don't get laid much, you shouldn't get a hand-job either. In the context of lifting and/or sex, absolutes are problematic and prone to mis-communication.

Should I get a hand-job tonight? I may not be getting laid at this hour, but perhaps some assisted work might provide a reasonable stimulus? As such, w/ full pull-ups vs. the Gravitron 2000 assisted pull up mackchine.

Context is context.

Well not quite the same thing. As both getting laid and a handjob would result in the same outcome.

Not necessarily so in exercise methods.

[CodhubIV]

The same outcome can be achieved in countless ways. The beginning and end matters little. The road in the middle is what matters. This applies to bodybuilding and sex.

But not in all ways

[mrmrbill]

The same outcome can be achieved in countless ways. The beginning and end matters little. The road in the middle is what matters. This applies to bodybuilding and sex.

lulz! Assisted pull-ups made my real pull-ups what they are today. But I get OP's point: grease-the-groove method is also a very important part of pull-up training. That requires doing actual pull-ups. One at a time, as need be.

[k9pit]

Well not quite the same thing. As both getting laid and a handjob would result in the same outcome.

Not necessarily so in exercise methods.

The same outcome can be achieved in countless ways. The beginning and end matters little. The road in the middle is what matters. This applies to bodybuilding and sex.

The end matters greatly depending on how much the woman gets around and if no condom is worn.

While the Handjob would result in a "happy ending", the straight sex however could result in an outcome well, not so happy.

I've never used an assistance dip or pullup machine in my life. This thread makes me want to throw on some shorts, drive to Gold's, crank out 2 sets, flex, and leave.

[hamworld05]

No, just me, but thank you I'm flattered. It comes naturally.

I also become annoyed when posters use their personal experiences as an absolute.

Only when it disagrees with your opinion. :P

Seriously though, the assistance machine is designed in a way that the less assistance you use, the worse you get at it. On the chinup assistance machine, you'd go up and your knees would get off the assistance machine because it can't keep up with you(is struggling to describe the picture). This is why I would revert to using 150 pounds of assistance. Worked very well actually.

Never ever use the dip machine. Lamest machine. I swear tricep kickbacks would work better than that machine in terms of getting your first dip. BTW getting first dip is real simplistic. Just get better at pushups. Pushups translate very well to dips. Pushups are so effective in terms of getting that first dip that if I knew how to effectively transition to a handstand pushup instead of "just get strong ffs" I would spend time doing that instead of doing dips all the time(boring as fuk).

[Tyciol]

Which is everything surely? What else is there apart from opinion in this game?

Opinions that go unexplained, opinions badly explained, and opinions well explained. Subjective adjectives, yeah, but there's certainly more than just opinion.

A lot of people say stay away from assisted pull-ups/dips (Google it), a lot of people say it's fine (Google it).

Irrelevant. Some people stay away from protein, some say it's fine. Guess who grows muscle?

Opinion.

Stating the obvious, we know we're stating opinions already. Opinions shouldn't be demeaned, they're valuable things, for good or bad.

And there's mine, my personal story. I used to think assisted was fine as you would progress, I was giving it my all, but it didn't do anything for me. Perhaps the unnatural position or center of balance the weight puts you under? I'm not sure. Everyone is posting opinion, I don't see the problem.

The problem is you say you were giving it your all, yet you didn't progress?

Part of what's unsatisfying about this is that you didn't go into detail about explaining how you were training with the assistance machines. Like what rep schemes, how much assistance, if you tried shuffling/centring your weight a bit differently, etc.

I don't see what's so unnatural about positioning or 'balance' (you can't fall over during a chinup, WHAT balance?) in these things. These factors are altered by other means as well (using a chair to assist, having someone spot your legs, using a stretch band, even jumping). Not to mention exercises that have a different balance, like when people do bodyweight rows.

If a move has different balance, it might not transfer as near to 100%, but it should still fatigue muscles and get them to adapt. If you were training in the special form of an assisted chin, in the very least your assisted chins should've gone up. Did they?

I do not think it to be useful if its the only thing you are doing to help you achieve your goal, it just isn't sufficient work load for your body.

This argument is silly, there are no limits to the workload one can do on an assistance machine. You can keep adding reps or keep subtracting helpy-weight.

Odds are these complaint cases are guys who did an assisted chin with 50lbs for 2-3 reps and then got mad they still couldn't do 1 rep with BW. I want to hear from the guys doing 20 reps assisted by only 10lbs, are they still unable to do a BW chin?

You read way too much into things dude

How so? Sounds impossible. I think of complex stuff pretty much instantaneously, and I type stuff fast.

and over analyze everything (srs).

I could just state my opinion but I like to explain it because then people won't complain I'm not.

I stopped reading after you quoted basically every line I posted.

If you don't want people to read and respond to what you right, don't post it. The purpose of posting on forums is for what you post to be replied to, in many cases.

Assisted and un-assisted aren't the same...Point blank. If they were then they wouldn't be called assisted and un-assisted.

Cool story bro, might want to tell it to whoever's calling them identical because I'm certainly not.

I'm just saying they're similar (hint: similar and 'same' are not synonyms) enough for results to translate.

BRB, waiting for the wind to die down, can't do chincs if a 10mph breeze is blowing at my face because dat balance is thrown off and form goes to heck.

lulz! Assisted pull-ups made my real pull-ups what they are today. But I get OP's point: grease-the-groove method is also a very important part of pull-up training. That requires doing actual pull-ups. One at a time, as need be.

It's more a valuable path than an important part. Somebody could obviously train chins without GTG just like they could train'm without assisteds or negatives or whatever.

the assistance machine is designed in a way that the less assistance you use, the worse you get at it. On the chinup assistance machine, you'd go up and your knees would get off the assistance machine because it can't keep up with you(is struggling to describe the picture). This is why I would revert to using 150 pounds of assistance. Worked very well actually.

Not sure what you mean about not keeping up with you. Were you pulling up so fast that your knees were in mid-air and the sled was lagging in rising?

I still don't see the problem, wouldn't that mean you're just strong and can probably move up to a higher weight? Or maybe you can pull a bit slower in earlier reps and save the EXPLODE reps to later in the set when you're getting tired and couldn't get mid-air even if you tried?

Also guessing you must've been a lot more than 180lbs to be using 150lbs assistance. TBH if I had to use such a huge counterweight I'd probably go use the lat pulldown or something like that, seems like less of a hassle since you can change the resistance level more easily and set the weight on the stack more gingerly.

Never ever use the dip machine. Lamest machine. I swear tricep kickbacks would work better than that machine in terms of getting your first dip. BTW getting first dip is real simplistic. Just get better at pushups. Pushups translate very well to dips. Pushups are so effective in terms of getting that first dip that if I knew how to effectively transition to a handstand pushup instead of "just get strong ffs" I would spend time doing that instead of doing dips all the time(boring as fuk).

So your story is: you maxed out the weight on the dip machine for 20 reps and still couldn't do a single BW dip on the parallel bars? How high was the weight on the stack compared to your BW?