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  1. #1
    Registered User soonerman4life's Avatar
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    BCAA's and Glutamine

    First let me start off by saying "Please don't flame me for not posting this in the Supplement section". lol I posted here because I wanted a mature, knowledgeable answer.
    My questions are:
    1) are these supplements really necessary?
    2) if yes, then when is the proper time to take them? BCAA prior to workout? Glutamine post workout?
    3) should they be taken on workout days only or everyday?

    Thanks in advance -
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    Going back to beast mode dbx's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by soonerman4life View Post
    First let me start off by saying "Please don't flame me for not posting this in the Supplement section". lol I posted here because I wanted a mature, knowledgeable answer.
    My questions are:
    1) are these supplements really necessary?
    2) if yes, then when is the proper time to take them? BCAA prior to workout? Glutamine post workout?
    3) should they be taken on workout days only or everyday?
    As worded, no.

    Originally Posted by soonerman4life View Post
    Thanks in advance -
    No problem
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  3. #3
    Registered User Do_Somethin's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by soonerman4life View Post
    First let me start off by saying "Please don't flame me for not posting this in the Supplement section". lol I posted here because I wanted a mature, knowledgeable answer.
    My questions are:
    1) are these supplements really necessary?
    2) if yes, then when is the proper time to take them? BCAA prior to workout? Glutamine post workout?
    3) should they be taken on workout days only or everyday?

    Thanks in advance -
    1) For what?
    2) Yes.
    3) Yes.
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    Registered User soonerman4life's Avatar
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    Should have been more specific, my apologies. It is my understanding that branched chain amino acids are primary building blocks for muscle growth and aid in protein synthesis. So in that respect, and if my understaning is correct, is it just hype from supplement companies or can they actually be beneficial? In regard to glutamine, my understanding is that it is the most abundant of the amino's in the human body and stresses on the body, such as intense weight training, can deplete the gluatimine stores and therefore not replenish themselves adequately so supplementation may be necessary.
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    Registered User Do_Somethin's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by soonerman4life View Post
    Should have been more specific, my apologies. It is my understanding that branched chain amino acids are primary building blocks for muscle growth and aid in protein synthesis. So in that respect, and if my understaning is correct, is it just hype from supplement companies or can they actually be beneficial? In regard to glutamine, my understanding is that it is the most abundant of the amino's in the human body and stresses on the body, such as intense weight training, can deplete the gluatimine stores and therefore not replenish themselves adequately so supplementation may be necessary.
    A full protein contains them so if the protein you consume is enough then in and of itself no but with the extremes we take with our training beyond normal everday routine I would say yes to after. There should be adequate amounts already prior if your nutrient timing is on but if you feel it may not be then by all means go ahead.
    For me when the need arises I go with 10g prior but it's ON's Amino Energy (which also has 50mg of caffeine per 5g scoop too).
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    Going back to beast mode dbx's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by soonerman4life View Post
    Should have been more specific, my apologies. It is my understanding that branched chain amino acids are primary building blocks for muscle growth and aid in protein synthesis. So in that respect, and if my understaning is correct, is it just hype from supplement companies or can they actually be beneficial? In regard to glutamine, my understanding is that it is the most abundant of the amino's in the human body and stresses on the body, such as intense weight training, can deplete the gluatimine stores and therefore not replenish themselves adequately so supplementation may be necessary.
    OK, no holds barred; L-Glutamine is absolute BS in practical use for ANY human being. Not because of it's lack of efficacy, but because of its delivery in the common supps sold.

    BCAAs: Like DS said, its found in whole foods. However, it can be beneficial when used by athletes in various endeavors, including runner's, who can use fast absorbing supp before or after strenuous exercise (such as long distance running, or very long cardio sessions. IMO, BBer's really don't need this supp, as long as they eat appropriately each day during their training regimen/program.
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    Registered User Do_Somethin's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dbx View Post
    OK, no holds barred; L-Glutamine is absolute BS in practical use for ANY human being. Not because of it's lack of efficacy, but because of its delivery in the common supps sold.

    BCAAs: Like DS said, its found in whole foods. However, it can be beneficial when used by athletes in various endeavors, including runner's, who can use fast absorbing supp before or after strenuous exercise (such as long distance running, or very long cardio sessions. IMO, BBer's really don't need this supp, as long as they eat appropriately each day during their training regimen/program.
    Also depending on the quality of the protein it may be helpful in making sure you're complete too. That may be micromanaging though.
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    Going back to beast mode dbx's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Do_Somethin View Post
    That may be micromanaging though.
    Yes, it is. Sounds like something a competitor might offer up
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    Registered User soonerman4life's Avatar
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    Got it. I'm fairly certain I'm eating the right foods and at the right times. I put a lot of attention and detail to macro management so I'm probably getting what i need through food sources. As for the quality protein, I know I get good protein with food but not sure about my supplemental protein source. I'm currently using Gold Standard Whey in the morning and post workout. Occasionally I'll have a 3rd serving if I need to make up some protein in my macro management.

    Thanks guys, I knew I'd get some solid advice off of this board.
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    Different proteins do have different amino profiles along with having different bioavailability rates. However to think you can determine the exact mix at any given moment required for 100% anabolism with no fat conversion is impossible.
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    Recent scientific studies have shown glutamine to be basically useless as an added supplement.
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    Could you point to some of those studies? Most of what I am reading these days is just the opposite.

    Ray
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    Originally Posted by Iceman1800 View Post
    Recent scientific studies have shown glutamine to be basically useless as an added supplement.
    Originally Posted by pastorgbc View Post
    Could you point to some of those studies? Most of what I am reading these days is just the opposite.

    Ray
    I'd be interested in reading about that as well.

    Increased plasma bicarbonate and growth hormone after an oral glutamine load
    TC Welbourne
    Department of Physiology, Louisiana State University College of Medicine, Shreveport 71130, USA.

    An oral glutamine load was administered to nine healthy subjects to determine the effect on plasma glutamine, bicarbonate, and circulating growth hormone concentrations. Two grams glutamine were dissolved in a cola drink and ingested over a 20-min period 45 min after a light breakfast. Forearm venous blood samples were obtained at zero time and at 30-min intervals for 90 min and compared with time controls obtained 1 wk earlier. Eight of nine subjects responded to the oral glutamine load with an increase in plasma glutamine at 30 and 60 min before returning to the control value at 90 min. Ninety minutes after the glutamine administration load both plasma bicarbonate concentration and circulating plasma growth hormone concentration were elevated. These findings demonstrate that a surprisingly small oral glutamine load is capable of elevating alkaline reserves as well as plasma growth hormone.

    http://www.ajcn.org/content/61/5/1058.abstract.
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    Originally Posted by Iceman1800 View Post
    Recent scientific studies have shown glutamine to be basically useless as an added supplement.
    Originally Posted by pastorgbc View Post
    Could you point to some of those studies? Most of what I am reading these days is just the opposite.

    Ray







    Here are just a few of many:




    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11834123

    Abstract

    The purpose of this study was to determine if high-dose glutamine ingestion affected weightlifting performance. In a double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study, 6 resistance-trained men (mean +/- SE: age, 21.5 +/- 0.3 years; weight, 76.5 +/- 2.8 kg(-1)) performed weightlifting exercises after the ingestion of glutamine or glycine (0.3 g x kg(-1)) mixed with calorie-free fruit juice or placebo (calorie-free fruit juice only). Each subject underwent each of the 3 treatments in a randomized order. One hour after ingestion, subjects performed 4 total sets of exercise to momentary muscular failure (2 sets of leg presses at 200% of body weight, 2 sets of bench presses at 100% of body weight). There were no differences in the average number of maximal repetitions performed in the leg press or bench press exercises among the 3 groups. These data indicate that the short-term ingestion of glutamine does not enhance weightlifting performance in resistance-trained men.






    ---------------------------------------------

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11822473

    Abstract

    The purpose of this study was to assess the effect of oral glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults. A group of 31 subjects, aged 18-24 years, were randomly allocated to groups (double blind) to receive either glutamine (0.9 g x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 17) or a placebo (0.9 g maltodextrin x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 14 during 6 weeks of total body resistance training. Exercises were performed for four to five sets of 6-12 repetitions at intensities ranging from 60% to 90% 1 repetition maximum (1 RM). Before and after training, measurements were taken of 1 RM squat and bench press strength, peak knee extension torque (using an isokinetic dynamometer), lean tissue mass (dual energy X-ray absorptiometry) and muscle protein degradation (urinary 3-methylhistidine by high performance liquid chromatography). Repeated measures ANOVA showed that strength, torque, lean tissue mass and 3-methylhistidine increased with training (P < 0.05), with no significant difference between groups. Both groups increased their 1 RM squat by approximately 30% and 1 RM bench press by approximately 14%. The glutamine group showed increases of 6% for knee extension torque, 2% for lean tissue mass and 41% for urinary levels of 3-methylhistidine. The placebo group increased knee extension torque by 5%, lean tissue mass by 1.7% and 3-methylhistidine by 56%. We conclude that glutamine supplementation during resistance training has no significant effect on muscle performance, body composition or muscle protein degradation in young healthy adults.



    ----------------------------------------------

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17111006

    Abstract

    We examined the effect of a post-exercise oral carbohydrate (CHO, 1 g.kg(-1).h(-1)) and essential amino acid (EAA, 9.25 g) solution containing glutamine (0.3 g/kg BW; GLN trial) versus an isoenergetic CHO-EAA solution without glutamine (control, CON trial) on muscle glycogen resynthesis and whole-body protein turnover following 90 min of cycling at 65% VO2 peak. Over the course of 3 h of recovery, muscle biopsies were taken to measure glycogen resynthesis and mixed muscle protein synthesis (MPS), by incorporation of [ring-2H5] phenylalanine. Infusion of [1-13C] leucine was used to measure whole-body protein turnover. Exercise resulted in a significant decrease in muscle glycogen (p < 0.05) with similar declines in each trial. Glycogen resynthesis following 3 h of recovery indicated no difference in total accumulation or rate of repletion. Leucine oxidation increased 2.5 fold (p < 0.05) during exercise, returned to resting levels immediately post-exercise,and was again elevated at 3 h post-exercise (p < 0.05). Leucine flux, an index of whole-body protein breakdown rate, was reduced during exercise, but increased to resting levels immediately post-exercise, and was further increased at 3 h post-exercise (p < 0.05), but only during the CON trial. Exercise resulted in a marked suppression of whole-body protein synthesis (50% of rest; p < 0.05), which was restored post-exercise; however, the addition of glutamine did not affect whole-body protein synthesis post-exercise. The rate of MPS was not different between trials. The addition of glutamine to a CHO + EAA beverage had no effect on post-exercise muscle glycogen resynthesis or muscle protein synthesis, but may suppress a rise in whole-body proteolysis during the later stages of recovery.
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    Originally Posted by Iceman1800 View Post
    Recent scientific studies have shown glutamine to be basically useless as an added supplement.
    For muscle growth or changing body composition I'd agree. It is useful for GI health though.
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    Thanks for the references.

    Ray
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    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    Here are just a few of many:




    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11834123









    ---------------------------------------------

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11822473






    ----------------------------------------------

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17111006
    Thank you. May as well use what I have left still but the references were interesting without being over the top. Good information.
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    Very interesting results in the studies. So based on the studies provided, I think it's safe to conclude that for weight training glutamine has no real value. I still have to wonder about the endurance people, marathon runners and such. Is there value for them? I'm also still unclear on the effects for GI health. Although I read somewhere that, regarding glutamine benefits for people with Crohn's disease, it had no real value.
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    Originally Posted by pastorgbc View Post
    Could you point to some of those studies? Most of what I am reading these days is just the opposite.

    Ray
    Ray, I've just got to comment, my friend....."Holy $%&#!" (pun intended), your avatar is awesome. It looks like the good pastor has seriously gotten down to cutting up a bit, eh? Very nice. You sure as heck have sculpted yourself.

    And fwiw, for those who don't know Ray; he was one of my favorite, most informed and inspirational members back in my journal days. He was always quiet, "soft spoken", knowledgeable and sharing...and damn it, much stronger than me . Ray, you're rocking it, my friend!

    Originally Posted by OutOfStep View Post
    For muscle growth or changing body composition I'd agree. It is useful for GI health though.
    Originally Posted by soonerman4life View Post
    Very interesting results in the studies. So based on the studies provided, I think it's safe to conclude that for weight training glutamine has no real value. I still have to wonder about the endurance people, marathon runners and such. Is there value for them? I'm also still unclear on the effects for GI health. Although I read somewhere that, regarding glutamine benefits for people with Crohn's disease, it had no real value.
    Yes, one study that I recall during my research a few years back showed that it has a decent benefit for runners, lol, as it significantly cut down on "respiratory infections."

    Once again, it has value for human beings, but the reasons are widely misunderstood, along with the delivery system of "our" supps being all but a stupid purchase. The study that I just mentioned where it helped? LOL, those people studied were fed via IV!

    Supplements...gotta go design and sell some......
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    Yes, one study that I recall during my research a few years back showed that it has a decent benefit for runners, lol, as it significantly cut down on "respiratory infections."

    Once again, it has value for human beings, but the reasons are widely misunderstood, along with the delivery system of "our" supps being all but a stupid purchase. The study that I just mentioned where it helped? LOL, those people studied were fed via IV!

    Supplements...gotta go design and sell some......

    Glutamine has got to be one of the most studied supplements over the last 5-10 years yet there still seems to be debate in some circles.

    Administered via IV, well... that's a real life situation. lol
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    Originally Posted by soonerman4life View Post
    Glutamine has got to be one of the most studied supplements over the last 20-30yrs years yet there still seems to be debate in some circles.

    Administered via IV, well... that's a real life situation. lol
    Nothing new here, and I will not even contemplate entering a debate with someone over this. Read, research and decide for yourself. It's really that easy.
    But just remember this: Anecdotal "evidence" is almost always bull$hit...when related to nearly any subject where science doesn't support it.

    Here's one to blow your mind...and really push the edge here, lofl; you know all those OTC glucosamine, chondroiten, etc.,? Yeah, tons of testimonials...not much science to back it. LOFL, they sell it big time for animals, too!. The reason I bring this one up? Because it is probably one (coupled/combined) supplement that so many people swear by, that it is quite possible (imo) that science hasn't quite figured out the connection(s) in studies performed to date. But again, to keep known facts alive here...this single/coupled supplement does/has not shown any conclusive benefit in studies (since I last looked, two years ago)!

    Placebo...it's what's for dinner.
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    Originally Posted by dbx View Post
    Nothing new here, and I will not even contemplate entering a debate with someone over this. Read, research and decide for yourself. It's really that easy.
    But just remember this: Anecdotal "evidence" is almost always bull$hit...when related to nearly any subject where science doesn't support it.

    Here's one to blow your mind...and really push the edge here, lofl; you know all those OTC glucosamine, chondroiten, etc.,? Yeah, tons of testimonials...not much science to back it. LOFL, they sell it big time for animals, too!. The reason I bring this one up? Because it is probably one (coupled/combined) supplement that so many people swear by, that it is quite possible (imo) that science hasn't quite figured out the connection(s) in studies performed to date. But again, to keep known facts alive here...this single/coupled supplement does/has not shown any conclusive benefit in studies (since I last looked, two years ago)!

    Placebo...it's what's for dinner.
    The real question I have is about creatine. Does it work? I wonder if anyone has studied it. I heard it just makes your muscles bloat up with water.
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    Originally Posted by OutOfStep View Post
    The real question I have is about creatine. Does it work? I wonder if anyone has studied it. I heard it just makes your muscles bloat up with water.
    There are actually quite a number of studies out there on it. I am a total supplement skeptic. But I decided to try creatine monohydrate after hearing several people I respect concede that it does work in a good number of people (I believe the number is 70%). This is totally anecdotal, but my husband and I both started taking it recently to try it out. Both of us experienced a noticeable change in strength and appearance. He's leaner than I am so it was easier to see the effects.

    Here's one study:

    Performance and muscle fiber adaptations to creatine supplementation and heavy resistance training.
    Volek JS, Duncan ND, Mazzetti SA, Staron RS, Putukian M, Gómez AL, Pearson DR, Fink WJ, Kraemer WJ.
    SourceDepartment of Kinesiology/Center for Sports Medicine, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park 16802, USA.

    Abstract
    PURPOSE: The purpose of this study was to examine the effect of creatine supplementation in conjunction with resistance training on physiological adaptations including muscle fiber hypertrophy and muscle creatine accumulation.

    METHODS: Nineteen healthy resistance-trained men were matched and then randomly assigned in a double-blind fashion to either a creatine (N = 10) or placebo (N = 9) group. Periodized heavy resistance training was performed for 12 wk. Creatine or placebo capsules were consumed (25 g x d(-1)) for 1 wk followed by a maintenance dose (5 g x d(-1)) for the remainder of the training.

    RESULTS: After 12 wk, significant (P < or = 0.05) increases in body mass and fat-free mass were greater in creatine (6.3% and 6.3%, respectively) than placebo (3.6% and 3.1%, respectively) subjects. After 12 wk, increases in bench press and squat were greater in creatine (24% and 32%, respectively) than placebo (16% and 24%, respectively) subjects. Compared with placebo subjects, creatine subjects demonstrated significantly greater increases in Type I (35% vs 11%), IIA (36% vs 15%), and IIAB (35% vs 6%) muscle fiber cross-sectional areas. Muscle total creatine concentrations were unchanged in placebo subjects. Muscle creatine was significantly elevated after 1 wk in creatine subjects (22%), and values remained significantly greater than placebo subjects after 12 wk. Average volume lifted in the bench press during training was significantly greater in creatine subjects during weeks 5-8. No negative side effects to the supplementation were reported.

    CONCLUSION: Creatine supplementation enhanced fat-free mass, physical performance, and muscle morphology in response to heavy resistance training, presumably mediated via higher quality training sessions.

    PMID:10449017[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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    Going back to beast mode dbx's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OutOfStep View Post
    The real question I have is about creatine. Does it work? I wonder if anyone has studied it. I heard it just makes your muscles bloat up with water.
    I have heard of teH kreateens, but not sure of the efficacy. I think a few people have written about it, but not sure. Yes, you will defiantly bloat with waters when using it, no matter what kind you use. teH walmart brand is one of the worst, so I've herd. aLL it does is make muskles look hooge for a few days, but then you loose all teH gains if you stop taking it. Waste of money.
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    Originally Posted by dbx View Post
    I have heard of teH kreateens, but not sure of the efficacy. I think a few people have written about it, but not sure. Yes, you will defiantly bloat with waters when using it, no matter what kind you use. teH walmart brand is one of the worst, so I've herd. aLL it does is make muskles look hooge for a few days, but then you loose all teH gains if you stop taking it. Waste of money.
    Not to mention that it's like steroidz, and will hold water under yer skin, and cauze you to loose all yer cutz.
    No brain, no gain.

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    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    Not to mention that it's like steroidz, and will hold water under yer skin, and cauze you to loose all yer cutz.
    Ya, I forgot that part. thanKs for adding that! Beside, some of us don't want to get all that hooge, anywayz.
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    Originally Posted by dbx View Post
    Ya, I forgot that part. thanKs for adding that! Beside, some of us don't want to get all that hooge, anywayz.
    Yepz. Don't wanna be a "meat-head."
    No brain, no gain.

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    BCAA is one of the few supplements I use on a daily basis. I started supplementing BCAA over 15 years ago after reading muscle tissue can be broken down by the body to obtain BCAA as a source to supply energy. This source of energy was discussed in an exercise physiology text book I purchased. My daily consumption of proteins from meals average only about 125 to 175 grams per day. So I augmented my source of BCAA to the equivalent of a higher level of protein consumption by supplementation. My thinking was a sufficient amount of BCAA would minimize the catabolic effect on muscles for supplying BCAA. I began doing this way before the supplement industry started pushing BCAA to everybody even if they are getting adequate amounts from their diets.

    The body can make enough glutamine for its regular needs and there is no convincing evidence to support supplementing.
    How can you visualize training a muscle if you don't know its structure?
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    Originally Posted by JerryB View Post
    BCAA is the only supplement I have used on a daily basis. I started supplementing BCAA over 15 years ago after reading muscle tissue can be broken down by the body to obtain BCAA as a source to supply energy. This source of energy was discussed in an exercise physiology text book I purchased. My daily consumption of proteins from meal average only about 125 to 175 grams per day. So I augmented my source of BCAA to the equivalent of a higher level of protein consumption by supplementation. My thinking was a sufficient amount of BCAA would minimize the catabolic effect on muscles for supplying BCAA. I began doing this way before the supplement industry started pushing BCAA to everybody even if they are getting adequate amounts from their diets.

    The body can make enough glutamine for its regular needs and there is no convincing evidence to support supplementing.
    I really don't want to open this can, but...

    I too, use BCAA's on a daily basis. After all, what better way to take my morning shot of 200mg of caffeine anhydrous in powder form, than to mix it with homemade, flavored BCAA powder?

    However, having said that......I only believe that BCAA's are most beneficial when used by those who do extreme cardio training (running, as one example). For BBer's? A waste of money if you're eating right to start with. "Food" is full of BCAAs...and the "quick delivery" pre/post workout is a joke, imo. As always, I suggest everyone do their own research and come to their own conclusions. This includes understanding the difference and correlation between efficacy and practical benefit.
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    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    Yepz. Don't wanna be a "meat-head."
    Exactly! I took teH keateens for a few months one time and I had to buy a whole bunches of new clothes cuz mah muskels were breaking thru mah shirts and pants cuz of the bloat!
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