Lagging Lats

[SquatTilYouDrop]

Thanks a lot for the video. Do you believe that pullups and chins will make the lats grow even if MMC hasn't been fully developed? I personally have an easy time feeling lats during rows and close grip pulldowns, but chins and pullups always seem to tire out my rear delts or teres major before I feel the lats.

Lats will always be used whether you're conscious of it or not but a sh*t load more emphasis could be shifted using a focused mind muscle connection. The best body builders in history believe it and they know muscles and how to make them bigger.

Think about this, during rows and lat pulldowns one can always control the resistance. Not so during pullups. You are a slave to body weight static resistance. Not even talking about adding additional weight from other sources.

It's no wonder other smaller muscles groups get tired before the lats get enough work to grow.

This is one reason, I suggest variation on pullups to shift emphasis away from those other smaller muscles and maybe find the best variation that individually target the belly of the lats best.

A time consuming process indeed, but worthwhile imo.

[LPAthickness]

"a sh*t load more emphasis could be shifted using a focused mind muscle connection." This is your answer.

If you are not fully focused on using your lats to perform a pullup or a row, then it's very likely that you'll be using the wrong muscles to perform the lift. You need to lift with absolutely perfect form when it comes to training your back (or anything else, really). When you do a pullup, do NOT think about using your arms. Instead, you need to focus on pulling your elbows down and backward...try to touch them behind your back. When you perform a barbell row, you need to think not of pulling the bar to your chest, but rather using your elbows to bring the bar to your belt buckle. You MUST keep your elbows tucked into your body, don't chicken-wing it.

Learning how to focus on and move from the muscle group you're targeting really is the difference between successful lifters, and everybody else. You need to constantly work on flexing and controlling each muscle group independently of any others. That's the kind of self-awareness that is required to make constant progress.

[SquatTilYouDrop]

Damn, just tried a couple sets of those around the world pullups. They hit the lats very well but seem to be Hell on the RCs. Don't think I'll be adding those in anytime soon.

The diagonals seem to work just as well without aggravating the RCs.

They feel good, they will be included in my pullup rotation for awhile.

[kanis999]

Tried some of the advice in this thread on my pulldowns today. I was able to get the feeling of tiredness to occur lower in my back, which I think is where the lat bellies are. Woohoo. I wasn't able to lift as heavy, but I think that's a necessary side effect of isolating the lats better.

[DYTrainer]

Tried some of the advice in this thread on my pulldowns today. I was able to get the feeling of tiredness to occur lower in my back, which I think is where the lat bellies are. Woohoo. I wasn't able to lift as heavy, but I think that's a necessary side effect of isolating the lats better.

Congrats. And that is the job of bodybuilding. It's simply not moving the weight from A to B by whatever means necessary. Rather it's moving the weight from A to B utilizing the muscles the lift was intended for. While you have to use "lower" weight you more than likely got more muscle stimulation this way then using more weight before but with a looser form. Would you rather look like you can do 400lb pull downs but look like you can only do 200 or do 200 but look like you can do 400. If your main goal is putting on lean muscle mass the actual weight is simply a means to an end, not an end it itself.

[RevSpunkwater]

A Nautilus book from way back when recommends this program for "Lats wider than your shoulders":

1. Behind neck
2. Pullover
3. Behind-neck pulldown
4. Rowing Torso
5. Negative chins

Three of those machines aren't widely available anymore, but if you get creative you can probably substitute exercises with desirable results. For instance, I found this suggested someplace:

1. Straight-arm pullover with dumbbell
2. Bent-arm pullover with barbell
3. Pulldown
4. Dumbell row
5. Negative chins

Something to try, I reckon.

[paradux]

How many BW pullups can you do? If you can't do 15-20(no diss at all), maybe trying working up to doing pullups with an extra 100 pounds?

Maybe it's lat insertions?

doubt anyone that can do 7-8 reps with their bw + 45lb can't do more than 15+ with just their own bodyweight

[hamworld05]

doubt anyone that can do 7-8 reps with their bw + 45lb can't do more than 15+ with just their own bodyweight

You'd be surprised. The world's strongest pullup record is set by a guy that can do maybe 30 pullups but there are other guys that can do more pullups.

I'm still going with "diet". Lats can't look big @ under 170 pounds.

[Spazzzzy]

Make sure your form is spot on with the pull-ups... I used to have that problem myself.

Don't just "pullup" the weight. Make sure you hang down and get a deep stretch in the back, whilst arching the back so the chest is parallel to the bar (or as close to) then retracting the shoulder blades (*** this is the most important aspect for lat activation***) pull yourself towards the bar trying to touch the bar with the sternum (most people can't do this immediately). At the top contract the lats and hold the movement for 1s then lower again.

Much harder variation (for me especially) than adding weight was when i began doing them.

Now onto grip widths. As is the case with bbing, the law of opposites applies.. Wide grip works inner back, close grip works outer. (Or think of when you're trying to show your back in a bbing contest, a bdb shows your inner back, traps, back thickness..etc and a latspread has your hands close to your side.. the same is true for when performing exercises). As the lats are in a more mechanically advantageous position when the elbows are pulling next to your body, CGPullups are gonna work the lats more favourably and really hit them along the lower to upper outside far more than with WGPullups which will add more bulk to your upper back (teres, traps, rhomboids, shoulder girdle..etc) but not as much to your actual lats. CG pulley rows are also great for adding extra bulk to the lats (make sure you really stretch the **** outta your back).

[ATrainer]

Thank you. I am still having a difficult time visualizing this. Any way you can get a picture or video of this movement?

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attach...hmentid=198413 This is the set-up. The movement is the exact opposite of a trap shrug.

[affliction0812]

My back exercises are Lat pulldown, Behind Neck Lat pulldown, One-arm DB Row, Barbell Row, Cable Row.. And I do dropset on the last set of some exercises. Is this just fine?

[ZoranM]

My back exercises are Lat pulldown, Behind Neck Lat pulldown, One-arm DB Row, Barbell Row, Cable Row.. And I do dropset on the last set of some exercises. Is this just fine?

Yes.

[affliction0812]

Yes.

In Barbell Rows and Cable Rows, should I focus on lats or mid-back?

[affliction0812]

Yes.

should I add or deduct some of my exercises in back?

[Tyciol]

With the straps, the humerous remains horizontal. The angle of the humerous in the shoulder socket doesn't change. The teres and posterior delt are responsible for changing the angle of the humerous, and yes, the lats will also, but the straps allow this angle to remain static.

True, just saying that while this limits the only dynamically (concentrically) contracting sholder extensor to the lats, the other extensors would still be functioning isometrically.

That and: even with the horizantal humeri, that doesn't mean the shoulder angle remains static, because the torso can tilt forward or back.

The lats depress the shoulder more than adduct the scapula with this movement. While ther is a small amount of scapular adduction performed by the lower traps, done properly, this is minimized. Most people do squeeze the lower traps and adduct the scapula initially, as a pulldown is all about scapular adduction, but proper instruction of the move trains this tendency out.

Pulldowns are more about downward rotation of scaps than adducton. There's not really any force trying to protract/abduct the scaps after all (just rotate them up and elevate them).

The lower traps don't merely adduct the scaps, they depress them, so I don't see how you could easily train them to not contribute anything to isolate the lats.

Not that it matters, since training the lower traps is awesome and they're usually neglected anyway, and add thickness to the back and stuff, overlapping the upper lats like they do.

If you are not fully focused on using your lats to perform a pullup or a row, then it's very likely that you'll be using the wrong muscles to perform the lift. You need to lift with absolutely perfect form when it comes to training your back (or anything else, really)

Phrasing implies non-lat muscles are 'wrong'. It's wrong for people trying to emphasize them, but other back muscles are fine and also enhance the back.

Trying to keep out the elbow flexors is one thing, but how important is removing the teres major and rear delts and lower traps/rhomboids and other stuff that help? Those muscles're cool.

[MassBigelow]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attach...hmentid=198413 This is the set-up. The movement is the exact opposite of a trap shrug.

excellent!. I'll give these a try. Thank you

[MassBigelow]

There has been some very good advice here on compound/isolation movements here. I will have to revisit my pullup/row variations and really concentrate on the movement to make that mind muscle connection. I think when I do a pullup, I just do the movement and not think about the movement. I think that a lot of people learn pullups at a younger age only learn the "movement" rather than the "exercise" (hoping this makes sense). Certainly inserting some of the isolation movements into my routine will add benefit by variation and concentration.

[MassBigelow]

You'd be surprised. The world's strongest pullup record is set by a guy that can do maybe 30 pullups but there are other guys that can do more pullups.

I'm still going with "diet". Lats can't look big @ under 170 pounds.

Here is my argument for lats not looking big under 170lbs



he had never seen 160lbs... I can almost think he is closer to 140lbs