Lagging Lats

[MassBigelow]

I am not sure if it's straight up genetics or whatever, but no matter who hard I work my lats are not getting any bigger. As I get thicker in the middle of my back through my shoulders, the lats aren't coming along. I do weighted pullups/chinups and cable pulldowns. I also hit deadlifts every week. I am certain my form is solid. I can do +70lbs on a widegrip pullup for 5-6 reps.
I am thick up top but now I want a nice v-taper.
Any thoughts?

[MuscleTechMarc]

Maybe try adding some heavy dumbbell rows:

[valkyrxiii]

I've made significant progress with latls over the past few weeks by adding a few exercises to my basic routine:

Bent Over Barbell Rows (5 sets, 3 reps, pull up to naval)
Straight Arm Pull Downs (3 sets, 8 reps, arms come up to just above parallel)
Chin Ups and Pull Ups (3 sets, just under failure, come down to a full dead-hanging position)
Dumbbell "Lawn Mowers" (2 sets, 8 reps)
(Sorry, I do not know the "proper name" for this exercise and cannot post links yet).

Hopefully these help out (even just a little bit). Best of luck in your quest for hang-glider lats. ;]

[MassBigelow]

I've made significant progress with latls over the past few weeks by adding a few exercises to my basic routine:

Bent Over Barbell Rows (5 sets, 3 reps, pull up to naval)
Straight Arm Pull Downs (3 sets, 8 reps, arms come up to just above parallel)
Chin Ups and Pull Ups (3 sets, just under failure, come down to a full dead-hanging position)
Dumbbell "Lawn Mowers" (2 sets, 8 reps)
(Sorry, I do not know the "proper name" for this exercise and cannot post links yet).

Hopefully these help out (even just a little bit). Best of luck in your quest for hang-glider lats. ;]

Thanks. I try to incorporate all of those movements every week. Perhaps I should hit DB rows more often. I might try working with reverse pyramid style for each movement. It's strange because I feel very strong but the lats aren't moving. Perhaps other muscles are compensating for the movement. I am currently cutting so I'll have to get some serious work when I bulk in a couple weeks.

[Saintsqc]

Hit them at least twice a week (I work my back 3x a week). Use heavy compound lift (BB row, chin up, DL) and work hard to increase the weight over time.

It doesnt really matter in wich rep/set scheme you work, as long as you can increase weight in the rep range of your choice, you will grow.

You can add other exercises to burn or exhaust your back...but the most important is to progressively overload. Work your ass off to increase your rows, your chins and your deadlifts and you will have nice gain. Be patient though, back is composed by many muscles and it might take some time before you see any changes. If you gain weight and your lift increase, that mean you grow.

[jolanar]

I've had pretty great success with bent over one arm dumbbell rows.

[DYTrainer]

Try something with a close grip, palms facing you. Could use the lat pulldown machine, chin ups, or hammer has a nice machine. This will target the lats more, vs a pronated wide grip. It would be good practice to have something with a wide grip and a close grip. Also make sure you are using your lats to move the weight and not your arms. Back is hard to develop that mind muscle connection, but it's very important.

[MassBigelow]

I'll have to hit the back hard 2x/wk. The rest of me is growing so hopefully the lats will come too. I've been doing back 2x/wk but only 2 heavy movements each day. I'll have to add a movement to stim growth. Unless my body is all kinds of messed up or I have serious dysmorphia

[muscleman353]

theres no such thing as a secret for bigger lats.i am sure that ur problem is that u dont train em with back movements.just pulling urself up doesnt mean u train lats.i ve seen many people do it by just using their arms too much and lats less.the best exercise for the lats for width is chindowns.try using some straps and use a monkey grip to isolate the lats .see if u can feel them more. u will build ur muscle mind connection when theyr groin.hit regularly poses like front and back lat spread and try to lex the area under the armpits to get a feel there.the exercises u use are just fine.try to feel the muscle u have. good luck

[MassBigelow]

theres no such thing as a secret for bigger lats.i am sure that ur problem is that u dont train em with back movements.just pulling urself up doesnt mean u train lats.i ve seen many people do it by just using their arms too much and lats less.the best exercise for the lats for width is chindowns.try using some straps and use a monkey grip to isolate the lats .see if u can feel them more. u will build ur muscle mind connection when theyr groin.hit regularly poses like front and back lat spread and try to lex the area under the armpits to get a feel there.the exercises u use are just fine.try to feel the muscle u have. good luck

Thanks. Perhaps my form isn't as good as I thought. I hit back pretty hard but the only progress is int he mid to upper back. Nice and thick but lats bring out width which is what I want now. If you google chindowns, brings you to youtube clip of a 8/10 shorty. feelsgoodman

Repped

[muscleman353]

Thanks. Perhaps my form isn't as good as I thought. I hit back pretty hard but the only progress is int he mid to upper back. Nice and thick but lats bring out width which is what I want now. If you google chindowns, brings you to youtube clip of a 8/10 shorty. feelsgoodman

Repped

this is the problem i had myself.for me as i said chindowns with a monkey grip and cheat bb rows (yates rows) row my lats.now i added sumo deads there to see if they do something.also try regular pullus too .i just ddidnt say to do it becuase the 'upper lats' and some small muscle around delts (open an anatomy book lol)the chindowns work thelower part which u want for width.dont forget to hit the pressing exrcises hard to grow bigger delts if u want nice width.a smaller waist gives an illusion too.good luck

[Yodums]

Video of BW +70lbs pullup? I don't mean this in a condescending way, but I find it hard to believe someone who is able to do BW +70lbs pullups for 5-6 reps has lagging lats.

[joshwah]

Decent form on wide grip pull ups and feel the squeeze in them has brought mine out. 1 arm dumbell rows and lat pullovers with a heavy db.

[MassBigelow]

Video of BW +70lbs pullup? I don't mean this in a condescending way, but I find it hard to believe someone who is able to do BW +70lbs pullups for 5-6 reps has lagging lats.

This is what I've been asking myself why I am lagging when I could put up some strong chins. I did them today (prior to reading your post) +45lbs for 6 slow w/ full lockout. Had a good friend/trainer check my form and made one slight adjustment. I was just slightly flaring my elbows on the chins forcing my rear delts and biceps to take the bulk of the weight. I brought them in and definitely felt the difference. If I remember, I'll get a video on Sat when I get to the gym. I've been cutting for the past 9 weeks so my strength has dropped a little (maybe 5-10lbs) but I'll give 70lbs a shot.

[MassBigelow]

Decent form on wide grip pull ups and feel the squeeze in them has brought mine out. 1 arm dumbell rows and lat pullovers with a heavy db.

When I get back from vacation, I'll make changes to my split to get these in w/ my chins every week. Something like:
1) Deads x3, chins x3, rows x2
2) Bench x3, Dips x2, Pullups x2
3) Squats x3, OH press x3, Calves x2

[powrfrk]

Try quarter deads in the power rack..starting with the pins set right below your knee's....overhand grip and pull heavy, high volume...helped me in a great way

[Saintsqc]

This is what I've been asking myself why I am lagging when I could put up some strong chins. I did them today (prior to reading your post) +45lbs for 6 slow w/ full lockout. Had a good friend/trainer check my form and made one slight adjustment. I was just slightly flaring my elbows on the chins forcing my rear delts and biceps to take the bulk of the weight. I brought them in and definitely felt the difference. If I remember, I'll get a video on Sat when I get to the gym. I've been cutting for the past 9 weeks so my strength has dropped a little (maybe 5-10lbs) but I'll give 70lbs a shot.

Dont get so nit-picky on form. Whether you flare your elbows out or not, whether you feel it or not, whether you think using more arms or not doesnt really matter. Your lat will still do the main work and get hit if you use full ROM on exercise and work heavy. Lat are the main mover on horizontal and vertical pull (rows and chins), other muscles are assistant or synergist. Even if you change your form a little to emphasis your lat more...the proportion is not really significant. Your lat will still do most of the job and in the long term, it wont matter.

So, focus on adding more weight and doing more reps. Dont try to "feel" it more or to improve your MMC. You stimulate your muscles by lifting heavier stuff...not by feeling it better.

When I get back from vacation, I'll make changes to my split to get these in w/ my chins every week. Something like:
1) Deads x3, chins x3, rows x2
2) Bench x3, Dips x2, Pullups x2
3) Squats x3, OH press x3, Calves x2

If I was you, I would do something like
Deads x 1 (1 heavy set is usually enough...DL is hard and 1 set per week is all you need to keep progressing), chins x 5, rows x 5
Bench x 3, Dips x 2, Biceps x 3
Squats x 3, OHP x 3, Pull ups x 5

Increase your volume on back work. There is a lot of muscles in your back. You work your back as much as your chest...but you have almost 5x more muscles in your back. If you want your lat to catch up, 5 sets 1 day and 2 more sets another is a waste of time. IMO, 10 sets one day and 5 more sets another day is more suited.
Let your back recover a little more before working it again. So, work it heavy day 1, rest day 2, work it medium (less volume, not less intensity) day 3, repeat.
Finally, IMO...calves is a waste of time. 2 sets of calves work per week wont make a single difference (they are bitch, if you want them to grow, you have to work them hard and often). Cut them out, and add some biceps work somehwere.

[muscleman353]

the guy is right^ for back and leg work there is no such thing as too much

[Cenotaph]

If you're not already, I would suggest using a suicide grip on your back movements. It helped me with ensuring my arms were just hooks to connect the weight to my lats.

[nward1991]

It sounds to me like you simply need to adjust your form. I would advise doing some BW pullups and really try to feel it in your lats. I have the same problem with bench press, I really have to try and think about using my chest, or else my delts take over the entire movement. When you do your pullups it shouldn't feel like you're really pulling with your arms, you should feel it all in your lats.

Same with Lat pulldowns, focus at the bottom portion of the movement on squeezing your lats and holding it there for a second or two.

[MassBigelow]

If you're not already, I would suggest using a suicide grip on your back movements. It helped me with ensuring my arms were just hooks to connect the weight to my lats.

All great info from previous posters. I do like the 1 set deads w/ 5 rows/chins/pulls.

I typically use a suicide grip on all back movements except for dead and single arm rows. My split before now consisted of only 10 sets of back/week. Adding an extra 5 heavy sets could exhaust my back. Only on 3+ sets of deads is when I reallllly feel my back failing.

[MassBigelow]

It sounds to me like you simply need to adjust your form. I would advise doing some BW pullups and really try to feel it in your lats. I have the same problem with bench press, I really have to try and think about using my chest, or else my delts take over the entire movement. When you do your pullups it shouldn't feel like you're really pulling with your arms, you should feel it all in your lats.

Same with Lat pulldowns, focus at the bottom portion of the movement on squeezing your lats and holding it there for a second or two.

Even when critiqued, my form isn't far off. I wanted a trainer to take a clear look. Now looking back on it (no pun intended), as long as I try to get my elbows to pinch my back I will be hitting my lats. Just being in the ballpark with form I feel every chin/pull but noticing small tweaks in form will cause other muscles in the back to be focused on but not ignoring the lats. Perhaps I just need to do more. I can do well over 20 chins in good form with BW. If my form was off and I was using a lot of biceps, I'd fail before 20.

[muscleman353]

op its really ****in simple.ur gym is full of mirrors most definetely.
do a lat spread before back workout
do 5x10 on chins
do a lat spread again
u should seem wider after the pump or you are doing it wrong

[MassBigelow]

op its really ****in simple.ur gym is full of mirrors most definetely.
do a lat spread before back workout
do 5x10 on chins
do a lat spread again
u should seem wider after the pump or you are doing it wrong

I definitely feel thickness and get a good pump in my back after a good workout. I think I'll make serious changes to my routine and log it with pics to see any transition over a couple of months. If so, then I wasn't doing something right before.

[ttownrepre]

Guessing its a form thing

The only logical reason is that your form is a bit off.
When doing lat exercises you have to arch your back to allow peak contraction of the back. So when you pull down make a concious effort to push your chest out, arch your back and pull into your upper chest.

Another way to look at it is, when you start the pulldown (when arms are stretched) your shoulders should raise (go up with the resistance of weight) then when you pull down to your chest your shoulders should drop (push chest out).

Another way to look at it is by contracting your scapula - Kai Greene outlines that nicely and clearly here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f7mbUQkJA0&t=2m16s

Movement of the shoulders and scapula are key in lat engagement and emphasis. Without this secondary muscles will involve and overtake the exercise (ie. if your back isn't archesd, chest out, shoulders down then biceps + abs +mid back will take over)

Assuming your form isn't wrong I'd say your using too heavy a weight or your grip isn't right. Imo a medium wide grip is alot more beneficial then super wide grip - more ROM and better contraction.

[thomasDB]

Hit them at least twice a week (I work my back 3x a week). Use heavy compound lift (BB row, chin up, DL) and work hard to increase the weight over time.

Going heavy 3x a week for the same muscle group seems kinda pointless in my opinion but if it works for you tant mieux.

[iron619]

I am not sure if it's straight up genetics or whatever, but no matter who hard I work my lats are not getting any bigger. As I get thicker in the middle of my back through my shoulders, the lats aren't coming along. I do weighted pullups/chinups and cable pulldowns. I also hit deadlifts every week. I am certain my form is solid. I can do +70lbs on a widegrip pullup for 5-6 reps.
I am thick up top but now I want a nice v-taper.
Any thoughts?

You got a lot of good advice so far in here, and I concur with most of them. One possible suggestion that has worked well for me are DB Pullovers. Some lifters may do this when they train chest; others when they train back. DB Pullovers have really helped my lats develop, both thickness and width. Another thing is to do variations of Barbell Rows, which are the "meat and potatoes" of my back training. I suggest alternating between underhand rows, 45 degree, and 90 degree rows.

Good luck bro.

[hamworld05]

Maybe it`s the lat insertion points...

[stirb]

Maybe try adding some heavy dumbbell rows:

Did this today, I felt it good, added to routine!

[BigNasty100]

Do your lats feel sore after a workout? Usually, mine don't so I bought a pullup bar a few years back and started doing 2-3 sets of wide grip pullups everyday. My lats absolutely exploded after this approach. They still never get sore though, so overtraining shouldn't be an issue.

Oh and I should mention that this is for vtaper/width. This won't add significant thickness.