Calling ALL NUTRITION EXPERTS GTFIH (WILL REP)

[Vindervar]

Cliffs:

- Hard-core vegan friend claims that vegetables are superior to red/white meat, can get all essential vitamins, minerals, macronutrients from it.

- Says meat clogs up arteries, is basically unhealthy. Chomping greens is the way to go for a longer, healthy life.

What do?

Will rep good responses.

[determined4000]

Cliffs:

- Hard-core vegan friend claims that vegetables are superior to red/white meat, can get all essential vitamins, minerals, macronutrients from it.

- Says meat clogs up arteries, is basically unhealthy. Chomping greens is the way to go for a longer, healthy life.

What do?

Will rep good responses.

Chances meat clogs up arteries is higher than veggies doing it
Chances of a longer healthier life with more veggies is better than extra meat
Veggies are more nutrient rich than meat
Can get all the protein you need from veggies (but not all the aminos)
That doesn't mean meat is gona kill you
That doesnt mean meat isn't a better protein source
That doesnt mean meat won't provide other good sources of nutrients and can't be eaten in a healthy diet

[ErikTheElectric]

Looks like the nutrition expert solved your dilemma for you OP!

[Ash_au]

Cliffs:

- Hard-core vegan friend claims that vegetables are superior to red/white meat, can get all essential vitamins, minerals, macronutrients from it.

- Says meat clogs up arteries, is basically unhealthy. Chomping greens is the way to go for a longer, healthy life.

What do?

Will rep good responses.

Trying hard to be biased against vegans, all I can come up with is vegans are often deficient in vitamin b12, calcium, iron. Why? Because the best sources of these are from animal meat. It takes a bit of effort to get these from a vegan diet without supplementing.

If he is into bodybuilding it would be a bit easier to argue against it.

[Vindervar]

Chances meat clogs up arteries is higher than veggies doing it
Chances of a longer healthier life with more veggies is better than extra meat
Veggies are more nutrient rich than meat
Can get all the protein you need from veggies (but not all the aminos)
That doesn't mean meat is gona kill you
That doesnt mean meat isn't a better protein source
That doesnt mean meat won't provide other good sources of nutrients and can't be eaten in a healthy diet

Thanks for the concise yet informational response.
I guess vegans-omnivores: 1-0
I get most of my protein sources from meat so I was trying to reason with him that meat has a better protein source. Vegan friend lifts as well (well, not as seriously, he has a more runner-type physique) and claims plant proteins is as efficient.

Trying hard to be biased against vegans, all I can come up with is vegans are often deficient in vitamin b12, calcium, iron. Why? Because the best sources of these are from animal meat. It takes a bit of effort to get these from a vegan diet without supplementing.

If he is into bodybuilding it would be a bit easier to argue against it.

He is, to a certain extent.
Heh, yeah I tried using that too. I also came up with vit B12 is found mostly in animal sources, and amino acid profiles as well. Dried herbs (such as thyme) and pure cocoa powder (chocolate) have even higher iron content (in mg) per 100g than liver, so I can't compare that. Seaweed (taro), soybeans and potatoes have high calcium profiles too, about 140mg per 100g.

Hmm.. I'm no vegan but if it improves the quality of life, then I wonder why aren't we all turning vegan? Is that the way our ancestors would want as to go? (semi-curious)

[determined4000]

Thanks for the concise yet informational response.
I guess vegans-omnivores: 1-0

???
You missed the point of my response

[Vindervar]

???
You missed the point of my response

Heh, I did. You basically said meat might not necessarily kill you and can provide better sources of proteins and other nutrients. But most essential nutrients can also be found in veggies (with the exception of vit B12 and a few others I am not sure of), and most importantly veggies help you prolong your life.

Did I get that right? :/

[determined4000]

Heh, I did. You basically said meat might not necessarily kill you and can provide better sources of proteins and other nutrients. But most essential nutrients can also be found in veggies (with the exception of vit B12 and a few others I am not sure of), and most importantly veggies help you prolong your life.

Did I get that right? :/

Thats better and one more point...
Just cuz you are vegetarian, doesnt mean your diet is healthy or you aren't less likely to "clog" your arteries (as you put it)
If instead of eating a chicken, turkey, beef, etc, the person is just eating white bread, fruit loops, other refined carbs, or trans fat, they will have detrimental effects that the person eating unprocessed meat will have.
Or even if they dont eat heavily processed food but are just inactive or overweight, they are more at risk

[Vindervar]

Thats better and one more point...
Just cuz you are vegetarian, doesnt mean your diet is healthy or you aren't less likely to "clog" your arteries (as you put it)
If instead of eating a chicken, turkey, beef, etc, the person is just eating white bread, fruit loops, other refined carbs, or trans fat, they will have detrimental effects that the person eating unprocessed meat will have.
Or even if they dont eat heavily processed food but are just inactive or overweight, they are more at risk

Thanks for all that advice.

One more thing, slightly on topic. Is there a recommended portion of red meat to eat per day? I have been struggling about this for years.

Always have to supplement my protein intake with shakes, like 60-70% of my protein macros come from shakes. I have been lately reading more about red meat health controversies so I'm wondering if I want to get my protein from whole foods, what foods should I take? And yes, I have already done the tuna route. Ate only tuna for 6 months straight out of the can. I'm pretty sick of it already. Lol. Is it healthier to take more white meat than red? I see people on this forum eating like 2-4 pounds of red meat per day, surely that fcuks up your health?

Had a uncle and grandparent pass away from stomach/colon cancer and they ate tons of red meat (granted the rest of their diet was pretty poor as well), so my family is pretty uptight about this.

[Ash_au]

Dried herbs (such as thyme) and pure cocoa powder (chocolate) have even higher iron content (in mg) per 100g than liver, so I can't compare that.

The iron content in plant sources is not as bioavailable as sources from red meat. So no plant is going to be a better source of iron then red meat.

[MmaBrah]

meat separates us from monkeys, eat it

[Vindervar]

The iron content in plant sources is not as bioavailable as sources from red meat. So no plant is going to be a better source of iron then red meat.

Can it be made up by consuming vegetables in greater quantities? In addition the chemical form of iron in animal flesh is the more readily absorbed heme (blood) iron and although more bioavailable than its non-heme version found mostly in vegetables, it is known to be a risk factor in cancer and cardiovascular disease. Although to what extent, I an not certain (experts can aware me).

[KLMARB]

Mankind evolved eating meat and fat. (and organs, etc.) We are totally adapted, on a biochemical basis to thrive on it. Animal fat is both natural and healthy. It is only when you shift the macronutrient ratio to favor complex carbs that you create the fundamental biochemical conditions (hyperinsulinemia creating rises in anorexigenic hormone resistance levels) that lead to the detrimental health conditions such as diabetes, CHD, obesity, immuno supression, etc. that cause the major health problems in our culture today. Here's a link with a realistic critique on vegetarianism/veganism:

http://www.beyondveg.com/

[determined4000]

Mankind evolved eating meat and fat. (and organs, etc.) We are totally adapted, on a biochemical basis to thrive on it. Animal fat is both natural and healthy. It is only when you shift the macronutrient ratio to favor complex carbs that you create the fundamental biochemical conditions (hyperinsulinemia creating rises in anorexigenic hormone resistance levels) that lead to the detrimental health conditions such as diabetes, CHD, obesity, immuno supression, etc. that cause the major health problems in our culture today. Here's a link with a realistic critique on vegetarianism/veganism:

http://www.beyondveg.com/

complex carbs --> diabetes???
more likely simple carbs and that is because those overeating them end up obese

Obesity is the main cause of CHD, diabetes, etc., NOT oatmeal, veggies, potatoes, beans

[KLMARB]

complex carbs --> diabetes???
more likely simple carbs and that is because those overeating them end up obese

Obesity is the main cause of CHD, diabetes, etc., NOT oatmeal, veggies, potatoes, beans

You're confusing correlation with causation. It is the massive rise in insulin and anorexigenic hormonal resistance that causes type II diabetes. In effect, lipogenesis gone wild....All due to nutritional pattern causing chronic overcompensation of glycogen. Recommending that diabetics eat complex carbs prevents (thereby creating a chronic condition) lipolysis, the very biochemical condition that reduces the diabetic state. If obesity is the cause, why is it that plenty of non-overweight people develop type II diabetes?

[danv027]

"I'm a vegetarian. Not a strict vegetarian though, I eat beef and pork. And chicken... but not fish 'cause that's disgusting..." - Jim Gaffigan

[trunks77]

Cliffs:

- Hard-core vegan friend claims that vegetables are superior to red/white meat, can get all essential vitamins, minerals, macronutrients from it.

- Says meat clogs up arteries, is basically unhealthy. Chomping greens is the way to go for a longer, healthy life.

What do?

Will rep good responses.

Plant protein does not have the same quality as animal proteins because it has a lower bioavailability, which means the body doesn't utilize it as well. If your looking to preserve muscle or gain muscle, plant proteins should not be your main source. There is no plant source on the planet that contains B12 either! B12 is important for heart, brain, nutrient absorption from the small intestines, etc... Plants contain non-heme iron which the body utilizes very poorly; animal products contain heme iron which the body untilizes very efficiently. Getting all your macros and micros from plant sources is impossible...! Lets not forget that plants contain lectins (bad news), a whole other story (best to eat them cooked or steamed). Ask your friend why meat eaters, high protein eaters (from animal sources) and fat eaters have a higher bone density and bigger brains than non.. Research has proven a diet strickly from plants shortens your life span, decreases bone density, shrinks the brain (from lack of fat/cholesterol, brain is 60% fat/cholesterol), leads to degenerative diseases, muscle wasting, etc, etc...Go ahead eat your veggies, but don't forget that medium rare 15oz steak as well. Meat clogs up your arteries...interesting because a diet high in CHO's leads to artery harding, which then causes blockages because of the insulin increasing the rate of smooth muscle cell growth, insulin also increases cancer cell growth, limits the production of testosterone and growth hormone...the list goes on... Have your friend educate himself on plant based diets. A great book written by a used to be vegetarian and vegan is "The vegetarian Myth" By Lierre Keith, another good one is the "Paleo Solution" By Robb Wolf.

Trunks77
B.S. Nutrition Science
Certified SSN

[germaine07]

Animal protein = HBV

Plant protein = LBV

[force_]

You just answered your own question when you stated your friend has a "runner type" physique lol....show me one bodybuilder who is a full vegan..not too likely. I have yet to see a veggie source that could be considered a complete protein with all the aminos as well.

Too look like a runner (ie- skinny ass) ..not so hard, too look like we do/want to requires some serious eating and a wide variety of protein sources.

Keep eating meat

[c3rndahse]

meat separates us from monkeys, eat it

Sorry to bump a month old thread, but "aaaarrrrgggghhhhh!!!" Monkeys are not vegans or vegetarians!!!! They eat insects. Lots of'em. They're omnivores and anybody who knows anything about monkeys knows that.

[ErikTheElectric]

Sorry to bump a month old thread, but "aaaarrrrgggghhhhh!!!" Monkeys are not vegans or vegetarians!!!! They eat insects. Lots of'em. They're omnivores and anybody who knows anything about monkeys knows that.

You bumped this month old thread to say something as dumb as that.. *sigh*

[Stang12]

YES, meat is a better protein source than vegetables. Is it healthier? NO. Vegetables have enzymes good for digestion on the other hand, meat isn't so great for digestion and the colon. Phytonutrients and chlorophyl that you find in vegetables act as powerful antioxidants for the body which in term act as muscle recovery and have cancer fighting benefits. Keep meat on the low, say maybe to about 3-4 servings a week, you can get your protein source mostly from chicken, fish, eggs, and protein shakes.

[KLMARB]

YES, meat is a better protein source than vegetables. Is it healthier? NO. Vegetables have enzymes good for digestion on the other hand, meat isn't so great for digestion and the colon. Phytonutrients and chlorophyl that you find in vegetables act as powerful antioxidants for the body which in term act as muscle recovery and have cancer fighting benefits. Keep meat on the low, say maybe to about 3-4 servings a week, you can get your protein source mostly from chicken, fish, eggs, and protein shakes.

Totally disagree.

[Stang12]

Explain why you disagree..

[KLMARB]

Explain why you disagree..

Evolution.

[MantisShrimp]

Low BV


Also vegans are typically deficient in phosphocreatine

[Jorgasm11]

Stang is right, vegetables are a healthier source. The healthiest source of protein would be a plant based protein which would help alkalize the body rather then meat sourced proteins which acidify the body. Although plant proteins do lack essential amino acids, a mix of plant proteins in a blend (hemp, pea, and rice for instance) is preferable and will overcome this problem.

[KLMARB]

Stang is right, vegetables are a healthier source. The healthiest source of protein would be a plant based protein which would help alkalize the body rather then meat sourced proteins which acidify the body. Although plant proteins do lack essential amino acids, a mix of plant proteins in a blend (hemp, pea, and rice for instance) is preferable and will overcome this problem.

Preposterous assertion. You mean "in my opinion"......

[motiva8]

Cliffs:

- Hard-core vegan friend claims that vegetables are superior to red/white meat, can get all essential vitamins, minerals, macronutrients from it.

- Says meat clogs up arteries, is basically unhealthy. Chomping greens is the way to go for a longer, healthy life.

What do?

Will rep good responses.

Coming from an ex vegan, even these points i argued when i was vegan to common bulls*it in the vegan community such as us being herbivore in ''design''/animal protein being bad for us.

Macronutrients yes you can get all from plants
No not all essential vitamins B12 being the most obvious, though there is B12 present in plants & such it is analogues and cannot be utilised by the body. The only way to obtain B12 is through animal produce ie eggs/meat/milk....or eating your own s*it to obtain the B12 our gut bacteria produce but which is too low down to be assimilated.
Creatine/taurine is virtually non existant in plants though it is not considered essential.
EPA/DHA omegas cannot be gotten from plants though our body can convert some plant sources to longer chains of fatty acids, it however is pretty damn inefficient at doing this
Whilst yes plant sources are EXTREMELY nutritient dense in calcium & iron, that does not mean it is bioavailable. Plant chemicals/hormones (mainly tannins/oxalates/phytic acids) can inhibit absorption of these nutrients & in general nutrients compete in the gut to be absorbed eg iron & calcium. This is why iron/calcium is set 1.5X times higher for vegetarians & vegans. Heck Jack Norris a vegan dietician who recommends plant diets also recommends a B12/Calcium/Iron supplement be taken.

Meat is not inherently bad, red meat gets a bad rep but venison is one of the healthiest meats on the planet i believe & extremely low in saturated fat. Whilst yes veg should constitute a large portion of your diet & whilst yes the roman gladiators & soldiers were largely vegetarian, meat is a good source of many nutrients. The mediterennian/okiniwan diet (ie lots of fish & veg) is one of the largest and longest studied diets & boasts all the health benefits of a vegetarian & vegan diet (ie lower cholestrol levels/lower diabetic & coronary disease etc)......This completely goes against any concept of it being meat that is the bad thing in a diet.

That being said you won't get anywhere arguing with him & its a pointless effort, your both right & wrong in some aspects. One can live a healthy diet as a vegetarian or vegan & yes they can even build muscle & compete at a pro level (see vegan athletes & bodybuilders). It is not necessarily an optimal diet, Similarly chugging down a ton of bacon eggs & milk whilst neglecting to eat greens/legumes/beans/nuts is not an optimal diet. And for the love of god don't argue the cliche ''our gazillion year old ancestors ate meat, therefore we should''. Its a stupid flawed argument

Now rep me the f*ck :P

[wireless101]

You're confusing correlation with causation. It is the massive rise in insulin and anorexigenic hormonal resistance that causes type II diabetes. In effect, lipogenesis gone wild....All due to nutritional pattern causing chronic overcompensation of glycogen. Recommending that diabetics eat complex carbs prevents (thereby creating a chronic condition) lipolysis, the very biochemical condition that reduces the diabetic state. If obesity is the cause, why is it that plenty of non-overweight people develop type II diabetes?

Genetics. Some are born with greater insulin resistance than others. In these cases diet may be a contributory factor but not always causative.