~~StrongMeats Comprehensive Guide to Cutting for the Very Overweight/Obese~~

[Vaalboy]

Great thread SM - I like it when things are kept nice and simple.

[MoldyGopher]

also is the reason you and the majority here swear by lifting when cutting/losing weight is b/c it burns more calories than cardio or b/c it will prevent the skinny/fat look when i actually get down to my desirable weight?

Or 3. It's another tool to help a person stay on the right track. Feeling stronger and starting to see muscles emerge is a compelling piece of motivation.

[forcajovem]

I disagree with cutting milk. Sure, you can include it in your shake, but drinking skim milk several times a day won't hinder your progress, it will only benefit. One glass of skim milk has 80 calories and 9 grams of protein, a very good ratio.

[moosejuice16]

Great read Strongmeat. Subbed to find it again if i need to show others. Been good to watch your solid progress in the 3 month comps i've been in with you.

Will hit you with some measly repping when im off spread.

-moosejuice16-

[StrongMeat]

I disagree with cutting milk. Sure, you can include it in your shake, but drinking skim milk several times a day won't hinder your progress, it will only benefit. One glass of skim milk has 80 calories and 9 grams of protein, a very good ratio.

one glass of milk(20oz) is 200 calories

and while the ratio is indeed good, liquid calories are not satiating, to a heavy person its easy to go overboard

thus me keeping it confined to protein shakes

IIFYM which i wholeheartedly believe in, allows you to eat anything but to a heavy person, that willpower and decision making wasnt there before(or that person wouldnt have gotten heavy) so this read is built for the overweight beginner

keep that in mind when you read it

-StrongMeat-

[marcello696]

great post!

[DoubleChub]

Good post, im 6.ft 275 lbs, been struggling for a while to lose some weight. Im going to keep an eye on the ratios for my food, but the calculator thing... says i need 3100 Cals maintenance, (using the 20/3/1 raitio you provided)
should i really be eating 2300-2600 Cals a day? i feel like im cheating if im over 2200.

[marcello696]

Good post, im 6.ft 275 lbs, been struggling for a while to lose some weight. Im going to keep an eye on the ratios for my food, but the calculator thing... says i need 3100 Cals maintenance, (using the 20/3/1 raitio you provided)
should i really be eating 2300-2600 Cals a day? i feel like im cheating if im over 2200.

at your height and weight you should be fine eating between 2300-2600 cals per day. My maintenance is 3400 and I eat between 2400 and 2700 cals per day and I've been losing weight at a steady pace for over a year now (down 87lbs).

[DoubleChub]

good to know, thanks.

[StrongMeat]

Good post, im 6.ft 275 lbs, been struggling for a while to lose some weight. Im going to keep an eye on the ratios for my food, but the calculator thing... says i need 3100 Cals maintenance, (using the 20/3/1 raitio you provided)
should i really be eating 2300-2600 Cals a day? i feel like im cheating if im over 2200.

FWIW my maintenance when I was 220 was around 2500, and I cut at 2000

Now my maintenance is roughly 2100 and I cut at 1500-1800

A good benchmark is to recalculate your maintenance for every 20lbs lost or 2 weeks of consecutive stalling

-StrongMeat-

[hcoyle545]

Out of interest what's wrong with counting the calories from cardio? If a machine tells you you've done 300cals worth of cardio, count it as 200 and eat some more.

Whatever keeps you consistent and for me being able to work for more food does this.

[DoubleChub]

Out of interest what's wrong with counting the calories from cardio? If a machine tells you you've done 300cals worth of cardio, count it as 200 and eat some more.

Whatever keeps you consistent and for me being able to work for more food does this.

Cardio machines are terrably innacurate for one, and as the OP said, this is for people who do not want to be skinny fat.

[hcoyle545]

Cardio machines are terrably innacurate for one, and as the OP said, this is for people who do not want to be skinny fat.

The bold is true, hence rounding down, but can you explain what you mean about the part in italics?

[Electricheadd]

Out of interest what's wrong with counting the calories from cardio? If a machine tells you you've done 300cals worth of cardio, count it as 200 and eat some more.

Whatever keeps you consistent and for me being able to work for more food does this.

The cardio was included in the activity multiplier when you figured TDEE. If you have been dieting for awhile and knew your exact maintenance, then added cardio, you could do something like you suggested but in general the extra 200 calories/day isn't gonna put you into a crazy muscle burning deficit.

[hcoyle545]

The cardio was included in the activity multiplier when you figured TDEE. If you have been dieting for awhile and knew your exact maintenance, then added cardio, you could do something like you suggested but in general the extra 200 calories/day isn't gonna put you into a crazy muscle burning deficit.

Absolutely but that's not what i'm talking about. I'm talking about feeling particularly hungry on a particular day and doing an extra hour of cardio that wouldn't have otherwise been done so you can eat an extra few hundo calories. There's nothing wrong with that.

[StrongMeat]

At the end of the day, the guide Is just my personal suggestion

as someone else stated, if you want exact results, you need exact work

I just dont feel cardio is important for weight loss(this coming from a former wrestler who used to hours of cardio daily 3:30 -> 9:30 5 days a week)

cardio deficit just allows you to eat more, and to a heavy person that usually ends up being more than necessary.

-StrongMeat-

[hcoyle545]

At the end of the day, the guide Is just my personal suggestion

as someone else stated, if you want exact results, you need exact work

I just dont feel cardio is important for weight loss(this coming from a former wrestler who used to hours of cardio daily 3:30 -> 9:30 5 days a week)

cardio deficit just allows you to eat more, and to a heavy person that usually ends up being more than necessary.

-StrongMeat-

You're right, cardio isn't necessary and I appreciate the work you put into this guide. Let me clarify, i'm not bashing, i'm just pointing out that someone could do what I described if they wanted to eat a little more.

[mpizzle421]

A question I've been considering...

You indicated that your goal was to look good... as admirable a goal as any, and shared by many (including myself). You also indicated that you didn't think one (someone that doesn't have superior genetics anyhow) should expect much in the way of strength gains while lifting at a calorie deficit. I'll assume you're also indicating size gains (the pretty stuff, part of 'looking good').

Would a person at the ~30-35% bodyfat range be better off working hard in the gym, and eating closer to maintenance I wonder? I recall Allpro in his beginner thread talking about enjoying the gravy train while it lasts (in respect to noobie strength/size training gains). Would it be better to get as much out of that sweet gravy train as you can, squeezing as much noob growth as possible out of the program, and THEN after 15-20 weeks of solid gravy train growth, start focusing on more of a deficit.

To avoid confusion, I'm not asking if I should be trying to bulk (by eating far over maintenance), but just not working at a real calorie deficit (outside of maybe calories burned at the gym).

Would an approach like that be better for your metabolism overall, pack on more muscle (while more modestly dropping weight) and get you closer to your goal in the end?

[StrongMeat]

A question I've been considering...

You indicated that your goal was to look good... as admirable a goal as any, and shared by many (including myself). You also indicated that you didn't think one (someone that doesn't have superior genetics anyhow) should expect much in the way of strength gains while lifting at a calorie deficit. I'll assume you're also indicating size gains (the pretty stuff, part of 'looking good').

Would a person at the ~30-35% bodyfat range be better off working hard in the gym, and eating closer to maintenance I wonder? I recall Allpro in his beginner thread talking about enjoying the gravy train while it lasts (in respect to noobie strength/size training gains). Would it be better to get as much out of that sweet gravy train as you can, squeezing as much noob growth as possible out of the program, and THEN after 15-20 weeks of solid gravy train growth, start focusing on more of a deficit.

To avoid confusion, I'm not asking if I should be trying to bulk (by eating far over maintenance), but just not working at a real calorie deficit (outside of maybe calories burned at the gym).

Would an approach like that be better for your metabolism overall, pack on more muscle (while more modestly dropping weight) and get you closer to your goal in the end?

If you are new to lifting you will experience the newbie gains even while cutting(if obese even moreso)

Stick to a solid strength routine and focus on increasing the load each week, if you start stalling after a month or so keep trying but stick to your deficit, if you have never lifted before you'll be surprised with your numbers for awhile despite the deficit but don't count on it for long

Even for me I still try to increase my lifts, just not at the expense of the deficit. Once you are closer to lean then start considering the long clean bulk

That way you never have to worry about a lengthy cut again

Good luck

-StrongMeat-

[Seannnn]

If you are new to lifting you will experience the newbie gains even while cutting(if obese even moreso)

Stick to a solid strength routine and focus on increasing the load each week, if you start stalling after a month or so keep trying but stick to your deficit, if you have never lifted before you'll be surprised with your numbers for awhile despite the deficit but don't count on it for long

Even for me I still try to increase my lifts, just not at the expense of the deficit. Once you are closer to lean then start considering the long clean bulk

That way you never have to worry about a lengthy cut again

Good luck

-StrongMeat-

will be following this now

[bigmikey81]

Quick question - Why do you recommend that someone should not eat more than 800 calories below their maintenance?


About me - My BMR is 2404 with 551 activity calories (2955). I've been eating approximately 2000 calories/day (give or take 100) for 6 weeks now. I exercise 3-4 days a week. I do not have any issues with hunger, as I fast in until noon (following Lean Gains). I've been losing 2lbs/week doing this.


I would be willing to make sure I reach the 800 calorie difference if there is a good medical reason. Otherwise, what I'm doing has been very easy, almost too easy.

[StrongMeat]

Quick question - Why do you recommend that someone should not eat more than 800 calories below their maintenance?


About me - My BMR is 2404 with 551 activity calories (2955). I've been eating approximately 2000 calories/day (give or take 100) for 6 weeks now. I exercise 3-4 days a week. I do not have any issues with hunger, as I fast in
until noon (following Lean Gains). I've been losing 2lbs/week doing this.


I would be willing to make sure I reach the 800 calorie difference if there is a good medical reason. Otherwise, what I'm doing has been very easy, almost too easy.

While I don't include exercise cals they are still there(that's why I regularly lost more than a pound a week)

Losing more than 3lbs a week puts you at risk for potential loose skin IMO

Past 800 cals and most people will mentally get fatigued as well, but that's person to person

-StrongMeat-

[bigmikey81]

While I don't include exercise cals they are still there(that's why I regularly lost more than a pound a week)

Losing more than 3lbs a week puts you at risk for potential loose skin IMO

Past 800 cals and most people will mentally get fatigued as well, but that's person to person

-StrongMeat-

Gotcha. Before i got into IIFYM with intermittent fasting i was going a bit nuts. 5 meals a day, none of which every left me full or remotely close to satisfied. I'm clear as can be, and my energy is high. I'm also trying to lost just 2lbs a week. I realize the adverse side affects of losing too much too fast. I'm not in a rush. 2lbs a week has been a breeze.

[idz21]

While I don't include exercise cals they are still there(that's why I regularly lost more than a pound a week)

Losing more than 3lbs a week puts you at risk for potential loose skin IMO

Past 800 cals and most people will mentally get fatigued as well, but that's person to person

-StrongMeat-

Is there proof of this? It's something that feels like broscience to me. Just repeated often enough that it becomes true. Is there any research that would indicate that this is true? There have been plenty of guys who've dropped a ton of weight quickly without loose skin. RoyBatty (a poster here) lost 120lbs in 6 months and had no loose skin (and another 33 after). It almost feels like it's going to happen if you're prone to it no matter how slow the weight comes off.

[StrongMeat]

you have to figure you can only lose so much fat at a time

therefore over a certain amount, you start losing muscle(broscience)

the droopy appearance of folds of skin is most probably caused by crash diets that sacrifice large amounts of supporting muscle, or lean body mass. Even less severe diets and weight loss from bariatric surgery can result in a substantial amount of muscle loss over time. Perhaps future scientific research will show a correlation between loss of lean body mass on a diet with the development of redundant skin.

http://www.bodyfatguide.com/LooseSkin.htm

-StrongMeat-

[Whartonian]

Thanks for this post, but I do have some additional questions.

What is more accurate for me?
I am male, 26 years old, 235 pounds, 74 inches tall, probably 35% body fat

When I use my height in the calculator, it tells me my total calories = 2827 (BMR 2300)
But when I use the 35% estimate, it gives me total calories = 2300 (BMR 1870)

I am having a hell of a time figuring out how much to eat and how often to work out and what deficit I should use. My metabolism is a bit out of whack (I ate less than 1000 calories yesterday and felt sufficiently full), and I don't know what's considered undereating for me. This is especially true since I had been planning on cutting by some 750-800+ daily deficit, but if I use the "more accurate measurement" using bodyfat with total calories 2300, that implies 2300 - 750 = 1550, which is below BMR and considered dangerous. At the same time, it is said that larger cuts are OK if your bf% is higher.

This information all seems contradictory to me and I'm having a tough time parsing it out. People are telling me not to worry, but I feel like this is a legitimate question that I need to better understand since right now I've no clue what I am doing. A lot of the advice on this board seems geared towards those with decent lean mass, but I have little muscle mass/lots of fat, so I'm just not even sure.

[StrongMeat]

As stated in the guide odds are 35% isnt your true bodyfat percentage

2800 maintenance is probably right

-StrongMeat-

[Whartonian]

Thanks for the quick response -- repped.

However: I had calculated bf% using online calculators with waist circumference of 48" and neck of 16", which is where I got 35% from. In the picture thread people said it was probably around there.

I feel like I eat a lot less than 2800 (or even 2000) usually and I'm still overweight... is it possible that I'm eating more than I think / things have more calories than they do?

For lunch (for the past year or two) I've been eating either chicken burrito bowls from Chipotle or those halal meals (rice + chicken + lamb). Dinner's all over the place but probably not more than a few hundred calories.

What is the likely reality, here?

[tjwoody]

u need to start logging macros, weighing measuring a bit. this is important. u cant out train a bad diet.

also online BF estimates, dont bother. if ur really that high in BF% dont even think about BF% till uve lost enough weight where u feel comfortable.

i started in 09 at 300 or so lbs and if i could do it again id pick a good starter weights program, starting strength, all pro, 5/3/1 even, etc. i also wouldnt have jumped my cals to low to soon. took me months to "reset" my body i felt like.

IMHO:
measure ur food
log ur food
log ur workouts
weightlift 3-4 days per week focusing on core movements
do some cardio for heart/lungs/overall health but dont worry about using it for ur cals deficit right now

every month review ur data and see if u need to make changes.

[Whartonian]

Problem is I have no idea how much food I should be eating every day and what macros to use (and yes I have read the sticky) -- it just seems like all these rules go out the window when you're sufficiently overweight