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  1. #1
    The show goes on chodan9's Avatar
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    are you building muscle or lifting weight?

    I saw this video of Kai Green in the main misc and thought it might be helpful for some of the newer guys here.
    It is also a good reminder for me, I have gotten in the trap of trying to lift more weight, more weight, more weight.
    I tend to be competitive in those terms.
    But in the last year I have grown a bit, physically and emotionally and have discovered its not about how much weight you move, its how the weight you move affects you.
    So I have reset my personal goals, I want to build a good looking, symmetrical well proportioned body with good size. I am trying to no longer be concerned with how much weight I move in terms of some arbitrary strength goal.
    I am concerned about the weight and reps that can accomplish the goals I mentioned.
    Anyway I thought this might help some folks. I know the average trainee like myself will not be able to emulate the results of an IFBB pro for obvious reasons, but the principles he explains in this video might be able to help others to reach their goals sooner by taking the ego factor out of their training.
    By the way, this will not apply to those whose focus is lifting more weight or whose goals may be outside the focus of this post or video.

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  2. #2
    Registered User Bladerunner1811's Avatar
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    I do both I strive to use the weight to build muscle yes,but I also strive to get stronger.

    And yes I know there will be those that scream "blasphemy" at the very concept of training of training to get bigger and stronger but let me name a few who did:

    John Grimek,Reg Park,George Eifferman,George Hackenschmidt,Marvin Eder,and Louis Able to name a few.


    Hmm 3o pounds huh? Comeon Reg park used far far heavier weight then that and had awesome muscle development!!
    Barbarism in the natural state of mankind.Civilzation is unnatural.It is the whim of circumstance.And barbarism must always ultimately triumph.


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  3. #3
    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    This is a double edged sword for me. My motivation for lifting comes from several places. In really thinking about it,...strength is probably my main motivator. Strength gains are much easier to measure then is added muscle. (especially at this point in my training).

    That being said, I dont train like a power lifter. I dont do a bunch of supporting exercises to support my main lifts, like rack pulls or deficit pulls for deads. But I just cant help but get the enjoyment out of moving heavy things. It is addictive....especially when they start to feel light.

    I am a big believer in if you lift 'heavy' the mass will come. You can try to trick your muscles all you want, (fatigue..etc), but nothing will grow them like real tension and stress which is generated from moving heavy weight.

    For a natural guy, this is of primary importance. When on enhancing substances, protein synthesis is being driven artificially high, and you will gain muscle regardless. As a nattie, you have to force your body to do this.

    I have come to notice that the many of top level natural guys are all crazy strong and base their workouts around moving the heaviest weight possible.
    RAW lifts
    635 Dead http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mATRBZ0gwdg
    420 Bench (paused) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ2_Q-TLIB8
    545 Squat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qZZLnePFiI
    225 x 29 bench http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe68-LgD0jM
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  4. #4
    Registered User Bladerunner1811's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    I am a big believer in if you lift 'heavy' the mass will come. You can try to trick your muscles all you want, (fatigue..etc), but nothing will grow them like real tension and stress which is generated from moving heavy weight.

    For a natural guy, this is of primary importance. When on enhancing substances, protein synthesis is being driven artificially high, and you will gain muscle regardless. As a nattie, you have to force your body to do this.
    I totally agree with you
    Barbarism in the natural state of mankind.Civilzation is unnatural.It is the whim of circumstance.And barbarism must always ultimately triumph.


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  5. #5
    Banned -=FLEX=-'s Avatar
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    I focus on strength on certain lifts because I seriously love the adrenaline rush and also it keeps me honest.


    Too easy to go in the gym every day and do the same lifts with the same weight day after day and year after year.

    If the strength comes, then so too will size.


    One also needs to realize that there is a big difference between natty guys and the pros. They don't NEED to lift heavy to get big. Natty guys do.
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  6. #6
    **S U P E R B E A S T** Meatpants's Avatar
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    Excellent video, Jonathan.
    To whom much is given, much is expected.

    Victory is reserved for those willing to pay its price.
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  7. #7
    Da1UnV bodyhard's Avatar
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    People tend to confuse what bodybuilders advocate.

    A bodybuilder doesn't care about lifting heavy, but that doesn't mean they lift light. In order to gain size you have to keep adding resistance to the muscle in order for it to hypertrophy.

    What bodybuilders do advocate is that the ROM and form is of more importance than just hoisting the weight up.

    If you train correctly as a bodybuilder you should see changes in your physique faster than if you just go into the gym and lift heavy weights.
    It's difficult to stand out if you're too busy trying to fit in. ~

    GOD IS GOOD.....
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  8. #8
    Is Numero Uno OutOfStep's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    I am a big believer in if you lift 'heavy' the mass will come.
    What happens when it doesn't? What happens when you've been training for awhile and start noticing that, despite having a decent bench press, your chest development still sucks. Then what?



    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    You can try to trick your muscles all you want, (fatigue..etc), but nothing will grow them like real tension and stress which is generated from moving heavy weight.
    Maybe not:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20711498
    "I'm a street walking cheetah with a heart full of napalm." -Iggy and The Stooges
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  9. #9
    TERMINATRESS dungeonmistress's Avatar
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    This was a discussion I had with a couple of competitive bb'ers at my new gym, who were very obviously juiced to the gills. They waved me over to say that they noticed that I lift heavy, and asked if I was a powerlifter. Now, realize that none of the lifts they have seen me do in the gym could be construed to be part of a power cycle. they haven't seen me deadlift, even - just rack pulls. I enjoy lifting heavy 8-10 reps; when I get 4 sets of 10 for a few workouts I increase the weight and drop back to 8 reps. I used to go heavier with less reps (5-6) but haven't gone there for quite awhile. Now the bigger of the two tells me that when he gets on stage it's not about how much he can lift, its about muscles period. No one disputes that fact. he said isolation exercises, working down the rack, supersets, etc are the best muscle builders. I was like...ORLY. He further stated that the best exercise for putting on hamstring mass is standing leg curls. While I'd like to believe his theory, I just can't buy into it. besides, I LIKE the feeling I get when I am able to go up in weight. It feels great! To me, that is probably one of the best feelings ever in my life. It shows what a strong mind, body, perseverance and dedication can do to overcome an obstacle, which I apply to other areas in my life. Strong in the gym is strong elsewhere in my life. Huzzah!!!!
    A successful woman is one who can build a firm foundation with the bricks others have thrown at her

    my metabolic repair/bulking-training journal: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=134394501
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  10. #10
    Powerlifting in disguise induced_drag's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OutOfStep View Post
    What happens when it doesn't? What happens when you've been training for awhile and start noticing that, despite having a decent bench press, your chest development still sucks. Then what?






    Maybe not:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20711498
    Didnt have time to read the study(will later)....I had always understood the difference being sarcoplasmic vs myofibrillar hypertrophy. Will read more later.


    With that out of the way....I am not saying rely only on the basic compounds...It is just the foundation of my training. I still do isolation work where I feel I need it. Chest is a great example for me. It is one of my lagging bodyparts and I tend to be a tricep dominant bencher. So while I still bench as heavy as I can, I also do dumbel presses, cabel cross, pullovers....etc... to provide additional stimulation.
    RAW lifts
    635 Dead http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mATRBZ0gwdg
    420 Bench (paused) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ2_Q-TLIB8
    545 Squat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qZZLnePFiI
    225 x 29 bench http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe68-LgD0jM
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  11. #11
    The show goes on chodan9's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bodyhard View Post

    What bodybuilders do advocate is that the ROM and form is of more importance than just hoisting the weight up.

    If you train correctly as a bodybuilder you should see changes in your physique faster than if you just go into the gym and lift heavy weights.
    this is what I am trying to focus on.
    sure you eventualy have to move up in weight to activate muscle growth, but it should not be at the cost of form.
    a person can say "if you go heavy size will come" but IMO if you go heavy as strict form will allow size will come sooner.
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  12. #12
    The show goes on chodan9's Avatar
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    Also dont get me wrong,
    I love challenging myself occasionally with a max dead or squat etc.
    thats just fun.
    but my focus has shifted from strength training
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  13. #13
    The show goes on chodan9's Avatar
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    what I liked about the video personally was the focus on the curl.

    how many of you know guys (or are the guy/girl) who put a lot of weight on the bar but then rock their arms at the shoulder joint in an effort to get the bar up.
    the guys I work out with on occasion are bad for that, and they would bust balls at the light weight I had to use to perform them correctly, stretching the bicep, and squeezing the contraction on top.
    the thing is, they are still swinging the bar with the same weight, and I am now (a couple years later) using the same weight as them only my form is still correct.
    my arms have changed radically in those 2 years, but their arms have not changed at all.
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  14. #14
    Da1UnV bodyhard's Avatar
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    If everyone just wanted to lift heavy then there wouldn't be a difference in, Bodybuilding, weightlifting, power lifting and yes strongman.

    I myself train as a bodybuilder I love bodybuilding and everything about it, I however don't knock the other types of lifting. I just don't care about strength.
    It's difficult to stand out if you're too busy trying to fit in. ~

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  15. #15
    Is Numero Uno OutOfStep's Avatar
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    The thing is, Kai is in a very different place goal-wise than the majority of you. This guy has built all the mass and strength he'll ever need. Most of you are still on your comeback tour, trying to regain what you lost after you took a 10 year break or whatever your deal was. Nobody is going to keep getting stronger forever though. There will come a time when you need to find other ways to stimulate growth besides adding more weight. I also believe that if you are going to have any longevity in this game, you really need to become more of a technician than just a weightlifter.
    "I'm a street walking cheetah with a heart full of napalm." -Iggy and The Stooges
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  16. #16
    just me baby latebloomingmom's Avatar
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    good thread
    lots of good info/advice
    thumbs up from this newbie!
    know your worth
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    Still looking up

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  17. #17
    Hammer time... Smelly bull's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bodyhard View Post
    If everyone just wanted to lift heavy then there wouldn't be a difference in, Bodybuilding, weightlifting, power lifting and yes strongman.

    I myself train as a bodybuilder I love bodybuilding and everything about it, I however don't knock the other types of lifting. I just don't care about strength.
    We need more people around here with BH's attitude...I focus more on strength, but I can certainly appreciate the efforts of other disciplines. Christ, if we where all the same this world would suck.

    What is ironic (for me) is when I finally decided to focus on strenght is when i made the greatest change in appearnace....for the better.
    “No citizen has a right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training… what a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable.” – Socrates

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  18. #18
    Hammer time... Smelly bull's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OutOfStep View Post
    The thing is, Kai is in a very different place goal-wise than the majority of you. This guy has built all the mass and strength he'll ever need. Most of you are still on your comeback tour, trying to regain what you lost after you took a 10 year break or whatever your deal was. Nobody is going to keep getting stronger forever though. There will come a time when you need to find other ways to stimulate growth besides adding more weight. I also believe that if you are going to have any longevity in this game, you really need to become more of a technician than just a weightlifter.
    You are correct with your technician statement...In terms of strength i certainly plateau more often than I ever had. But this is where strategies like using bands, board presses, chains, or focus more of form, etc. come into affect (or is effect?). Everyone has to have a plan on how to overcome plateaus....
    “No citizen has a right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training… what a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable.” – Socrates

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  19. #19
    Registered User antonbrn's Avatar
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    great post, thanks for posting
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  20. #20
    Kettlebear Marius_Ursus's Avatar
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    In my experience 30 reps is 30 reps regardless of how many sets you do. If I do 30 singles at near-max weight with a descent into 1RM percentages as the bar feels heavier, I'm still doing the same volume as if I do three sets of ten reps at 60% of my 1RM. There doesn't have to be a difference between the two other than when you get into the sculpting and refinement aspect of things.

    EDIT - As OutofStep pointed out, as you get older, your strategies change where some exercises are substituted periodically, poundages are juggled around a little, and even little things like grip, hand position, and foot placement have to be adjusted a little. Each thing can affect how much you're lifting, but the overarching principle of heavy lifting at sufficient volume to stimulate growth still applies.
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  21. #21
    Is Numero Uno OutOfStep's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Smelly bull View Post
    You are correct with your technician statement...In terms of strength i certainly plateau more often than I ever had. But this is where strategies like using bands, board presses, chains, or focus more of form, etc. come into affect (or is effect?). Everyone has to have a plan on how to overcome plateaus....
    My comment was meant more in terms of execution of the exercise. Guys who lift like Coleman and Warren usually end up paying for it down the line. I think Ronnie has had 4 back surgeries and his spine is still ****ed up. And Branch can't seem to walk down the stairs or get into his car without tearing a muscle off the bone. Yates trained heavy as hell and had to retire early from all the injuries.
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  22. #22
    Is Numero Uno OutOfStep's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Bladerunner1811 View Post
    Hmm 3o pounds huh? Comeon Reg park used far far heavier weight then that and had awesome muscle development!!
    Everything Kai advised that guy to do was right on the money IMO. That guy's curls were total bull**** and he was doing the same stuff I see every guy doing in the gym. Bringing the elbows forward and lifting the weight with your front delt and swinging a barbell back and forth isn't doing **** for your biceps in terms of stimulating growth. That guy wasn't nearly as strong as he thought he was because he could barely squeeze out 12 reps with the 15 pounders after he cleaned up his form.
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    Kettlebear Marius_Ursus's Avatar
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    I wrote an article about what I was talking about in my previous post.

    If anyone's interested: http://www.sweatpit.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=bear

    It's a system to maximize strength and size at the same time. At least it's the most success I've had, anyway.

    EDIT - You have to keep your diet, too. Make sure you're getting enough protein to make those muscles swole.
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  24. #24
    Official MuscleTech Rep llahhsoj's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by -=FLEX=- View Post
    They don't NEED to lift heavy to get big. Natty guys do.
    Great point!
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  25. #25
    Pubmed Warrior acrawlingchaos's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OutOfStep View Post
    What happens when it doesn't? What happens when you've been training for awhile and start noticing that, despite having a decent bench press, your chest development still sucks. Then what?
    Maybe not:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20711498
    I am running this sort of program now (GVT). It's pretty aggressive, and can't wait to see how the first 6 weeks go. You are dead on, once one type of strength starts reaching a higher level (say myofibril), the next step would be to work on metabolic growth, synaptic development and speed development. Most of the pro's have most likely used each of these tools to improve their game.

    Originally Posted by induced_drag View Post
    Didnt have time to read the study(will later)....I had always understood the difference being sarcoplasmic vs myofibrillar hypertrophy. Will read more later.
    Muscle fibers still grow when worked in a fatigued state. While sarcoplasmic hypertrophy will play it's part in growth on high volume low intensity programs, the total work load can be much greater in a volume program.

    With the GVT, I do 150 x 10 x 10 on sumo DL for a total workoad of 15'000 pounds.

    With a basic 5 x 5 (two warm ups) 150 x 10//// 200 x 5//// 300 x 5 x 3, total workload is 7'000 pounds.

    Total workload is the bread and butter for the myofibril growth in these programs.
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  26. #26
    Ripped Van Winkle IronCharles's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bodyhard View Post
    What bodybuilders do advocate is that the ROM and form is of more importance than just hoisting the weight up.

    If you train correctly as a bodybuilder you should see changes in your physique faster than if you just go into the gym and lift heavy weights.
    Absolutely agree. Some of my lifts are pretty light, compared to some of the guys who are stronger, yet smaller than me. I've found that I can make the same, or better, gains by lifting lighter weights with strict form.... as long as I take each set to failure, than I can by lifting heavy, for a few reps, and never exceeding the number of reps called for by a program.

    I've never understood the rigid progression system, where you lift the weight for 6, 8, 10, or whatever reps, and then immediately rack the weight and move on to the next exercise, even if you have more reps in you. The microtears in the muscle tissue occur in the last few reps, when your mind is signalling the muscle to move beyond what it's comfortable with. Pushing beyond what you can normally do is what triggers growth, whether it be light weights to failure, or heavy weights to failure. The lighter weights encourage building with sarcoplasmic fluid, which creates volume. Heavier weights encourage building with myofibrillar cells, which promote strength, but build less size than sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.
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  27. #27
    Registered User polishedball's Avatar
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    I lift weight, seems to work for me so that is what I do. When will people see this is not a one size fits all thing. You MUST find what works for you. Also think that is why some many people in the gym look the same as when they started 2 years ago, cause they don't lift weight. Often I don't even keep track of the weight, only on one or two core exercises per body part, other than that it is just as heavy as i could go for a a few reps pyramiding up sometimes back down.
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  28. #28
    Lean Bulking 67fastback's Avatar
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    Olympic weightlifters, don't look like body builders. Powerlifters/weightlifters move more weight than bodybuilders. Bodybuilders care about how they look. Weightlifters care about how much # they move. Two different sports, different disciplines.

    The question should be, are you trying to be a bodybuilder, weightlifter, or somewhere in between?





    Arguably serious weightlifters have more functional strength
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  29. #29
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    Thanks for sharing! What I want to know is if this Kai fellow has it all figured out why does he sound like he is about to have a heart attack trying to form sentences? Is that how stressed a human heart is with that much mass or did he just pound out a 2000 lb squat off screen?
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  30. #30
    The show goes on chodan9's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hpfiend View Post
    Thanks for sharing! What I want to know is if this Kai fellow has it all figured out why does he sound like he is about to have a heart attack trying to form sentences? Is that how stressed a human heart is with that much mass or did he just pound out a 2000 lb squat off screen?
    apparently he had just finished a work set when he started talking
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