Should I cut or bulk first? (Pics)

[Javilionaire]

Do you guys think I should bulk or cut first? At the moment I'm bulking, however, I'm starting to feel fat =/

I want to be quite muscular and ripped for the summer, but not if it makes me a fat ass first. Also, I don't want to look like a skinny rat!

Currently my lifts are:

Bench: 170lbs
Back Squat: 195lbs
Dead lift: 195lbs

Thank you for your time!


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This is my goal (Slightly larger arms though) ----> ripped.jpg

[pinkdb4ever]

You could do both, just do cardio on your off days, and make sure you get sufficient protein after your workouts the days you do.

[Javilionaire]

You could do both, just do cardio on your off days, and make sure you get sufficient protein after your workouts the days you do.

I only have 1 off day

[pinkdb4ever]

I only have 1 off day

You could always tweak your routine a bit, you don't NEED to workout 6 days a week do you? I workout 3 days a week (mon/wed/fri) and I hit everything. Or at least a 4 day routine you could try, that is if you want to do both at the same time.

If not, then it's up to you to decide what's more important, getting beefier, or getting tone (scrawnier)

[Javilionaire]

You could always tweak your routine a bit, you don't NEED to workout 6 days a week do you? I workout 3 days a week (mon/wed/fri) and I hit everything. Or at least a 4 day routine you could try, that is if you want to do both at the same time.

If not, then it's up to you to decide what's more important, getting beefier, or getting tone (scrawnier)

I honestly don't know what to do, which is why I've come here.

This is what my current workout looks like:

(Copy pasted the workout my friend sent me)


Chest - Monday and Thursday

Bench Press 4 sets
Incline Bench Press 4 sets
Cable or Dumbbell Flies for Flat bench
Cable or Dumbbell Flies for Incline Bench
Decline Bench press (You can stick to one good weight with this and do 4 sets of 15 if you like)
Dumbbell Bench Press (You do triple 7’s meaning 3 sets of 7. Example for weight would be 70, 80 , 90)

Back (Mondays)
Wide Grip Lat pull downs 4 sets
Bend Over Rows 4 sets
1 arm dumbbell Rows 4 sets each arm
Seated Wide row grip rows 4 sets
Cabled Lat pull downs 4 sets ( this is a machine that has a left and right hand handle, it lets you pull each weight from each arm, any questions about this ask me)
Wide grip Pull ups Triple 10’s

Back (Thursdays)
Close Grip Pull Downs 4 sets
Bent Over T Rows 4 sets ( this is used with the close grip handles, any questions ask me)
Seated Close Grip Rows 4 sets
Close grip Pull downs 4 sets ( This is with your knuckles facing out from you)
1 armed Dumbbell rows 4 sets each arm
Dumbbell pull overs 4 sets

Tuesday and Friday

Shoulders
Seated Military Press OR Seated Dumbbell Press OR Arnold Presses 4 sets
Standing Raising Side Laterals 4 sets
Machine Rear Delts ( this is done on the Pec Dec Machine) 4 sets
Up right Rows 4 sets
Dumbbell Front Raises 4 sets
Seated or Machine Side Laterals 4 sets
Cable Rear Delts 4 sets ( this is when you go to a cable machine and grab the left handle with right hand and left with right, and you pull it back with your arms slightly bent)
HEAVY Shrugs 4 sets

Arms
Biceps

Seated Alternating curls 4 sets
Preacher Curls 4 sets
Wide Grip Barbell Curls 4 sets
Hammer Curls 4 sets

Triceps

Close Grip Bench Press 4 sets
Cable Push Downs 4 sets
Seated Dips with weight belt 4 sets
Skull Crushers 4 sets
Foreams

This is tricky just do 3 workouts for it so
Workout 1 4 sets
Workout 2 4 sets
Workout 3 4 sets

Wednesday and Saturday
Legs

Squats 4 sets
Leg Presses with Calves 4 Sets ( For the calve part do 15 reps for 4 sets)
Leg Extensions 4 sets
Leg Curls 4 sets
Standing Calve raises 4 sets
Hack Squats Triple 7’s
Good Mornings 4 sets
Lunges 4 sets each leg

[pinkdb4ever]

Sometimes I wonder if it's even worth posting threads on this forum first of all, considering all the amounts of unanswered posts, or just arrogant replies.

But anyways, I skimmed through it an yes it seems like a very busy schedule. Mine is this:

Monday: chest, back, tris, shoulders (8 reps)
Wednesday: legs/bi's
Friday: same as Monday just heavy, or tri/shoulder if I missed one on Monday.

I'm fairly new but have been doing some research, so it may not be a perfect routine (still looking for an answer on chest once or twice a week) but you get what I'm saying. I do hit basically everything, or at least everything I want. Most people do 4 day workouts but this routine fits my school schedule (where I go to the gym).

Sorry if this wasn't a direct answer to your question though.

[Grizvok]

Sometimes I wonder if it's even worth posting threads on this forum first of all, considering all the amounts of unanswered posts, or just arrogant replies.

But anyways, I skimmed through it an yes it seems like a very busy schedule. Mine is this:

Monday: chest, back, tris, shoulders (8 reps)
Wednesday: legs/bi's
Friday: same as Monday just heavy, or tri/shoulder if I missed one on Monday.

I'm fairly new but have been doing some research, so it may not be a perfect routine (still looking for an answer on chest once or twice a week) but you get what I'm saying. I do hit basically everything, or at least everything I want. Most people do 4 day workouts but this routine fits my school schedule (where I go to the gym).

Sorry if this wasn't a direct answer to your question though.

The majority are unanswered because the forum stickies cover 95% of what people are asking.

[jamnajh]

The majority are unanswered because the forum stickies cover 95% of what people are asking.

This.

And you both need to read them, all of them. Two times.
Go to nutrition, repeat process.

[RSerda7]

The majority are unanswered because the forum stickies cover 95% of what people are asking.

If that is the case then why have a forum at all? Why not just have a bunch of stickies plastered all over the individual forums.

[jxm26]

stickies stickies stickies

[Adc559]

Bulk dude. Like 200-300 over maintanance it will help keep fat gains off.

[Adamspoon]

If that is the case then why have a forum at all? Why not just have a bunch of stickies plastered all over the individual forums.

Because stickies cover the basics, which everyone should understand before they start lifting if they want to take it seriously. There are hundreds of posts from new lifters who have not bothered to read them, repeatedly asking exactly the same questions!

There are only so many times you can read posts from people saying "Dude I want to get shredded for sumer, I'm doing a 4 day split with hundreds of unecessary exercises but not getting shredded, why don't I look like an underwear model already?" before it get's annoying!

The answer is ALWAYS the same: READ THE STICKIES in this forum, then pick a full body routine like All Pro's simple beginner routine or Starting Strenth, not a split routine like the OP is doing. READ THE STICKIES in the nutrition forum and get your diet in check. Lift, progressively increase the load, see results. Not rocket science mate.

[Javilionaire]

Bulk dude. Like 200-300 over maintanance it will help keep fat gains off.

Alright thanks man. Will do.

I find it incredibly difficult to work out my maintenance. I don't think it's possible to be that accurate with what you eat. For example, in the morning I just throw some oatmeal in a bowl with some milk and I have no idea how much I put in. It's very difficult to monitor my meals that closely when I have school, exams etc.

I don't think i'll ever work it out my maintenance, I have a weird body!

Any advice?

[jgreystoke]

I honestly don't know what to do, which is why I've come here.

This is what my current workout looks like:

(Copy pasted the workout my friend sent me)


Chest - Monday and Thursday

Bench Press 4 sets
Incline Bench Press 4 sets
Cable or Dumbbell Flies for Flat bench
Cable or Dumbbell Flies for Incline Bench
Decline Bench press (You can stick to one good weight with this and do 4 sets of 15 if you like)
Dumbbell Bench Press (You do triple 7’s meaning 3 sets of 7. Example for weight would be 70, 80 , 90)

Back (Mondays)
Wide Grip Lat pull downs 4 sets
Bend Over Rows 4 sets
1 arm dumbbell Rows 4 sets each arm
Seated Wide row grip rows 4 sets
Cabled Lat pull downs 4 sets ( this is a machine that has a left and right hand handle, it lets you pull each weight from each arm, any questions about this ask me)
Wide grip Pull ups Triple 10’s

Back (Thursdays)
Close Grip Pull Downs 4 sets
Bent Over T Rows 4 sets ( this is used with the close grip handles, any questions ask me)
Seated Close Grip Rows 4 sets
Close grip Pull downs 4 sets ( This is with your knuckles facing out from you)
1 armed Dumbbell rows 4 sets each arm
Dumbbell pull overs 4 sets

Tuesday and Friday

Shoulders
Seated Military Press OR Seated Dumbbell Press OR Arnold Presses 4 sets
Standing Raising Side Laterals 4 sets
Machine Rear Delts ( this is done on the Pec Dec Machine) 4 sets
Up right Rows 4 sets
Dumbbell Front Raises 4 sets
Seated or Machine Side Laterals 4 sets
Cable Rear Delts 4 sets ( this is when you go to a cable machine and grab the left handle with right hand and left with right, and you pull it back with your arms slightly bent)
HEAVY Shrugs 4 sets

Arms
Biceps

Seated Alternating curls 4 sets
Preacher Curls 4 sets
Wide Grip Barbell Curls 4 sets
Hammer Curls 4 sets

Triceps

Close Grip Bench Press 4 sets
Cable Push Downs 4 sets
Seated Dips with weight belt 4 sets
Skull Crushers 4 sets
Foreams

This is tricky just do 3 workouts for it so
Workout 1 4 sets
Workout 2 4 sets
Workout 3 4 sets

Wednesday and Saturday
Legs

Squats 4 sets
Leg Presses with Calves 4 Sets ( For the calve part do 15 reps for 4 sets)
Leg Extensions 4 sets
Leg Curls 4 sets
Standing Calve raises 4 sets
Hack Squats Triple 7’s
Good Mornings 4 sets
Lunges 4 sets each leg

WTF is that?

You don't need four types of bench.

Do one and get much stronger for reps for enough volume........

You don't need several types of row. Do one and get much stronger for reps......

You don't need several types of curl. Do one and get much.......

You should have a deadlift variation. And you should get it ahead of your squat to parallel.

You don't need to train six days a week with a poorly designed "program", designed by someone who knows nothing about programming.

There are great programs in the stickies. Some of them are mentioned in my sig.

[Javilionaire]

WTF is that?

You don't need four types of bench.

Do one and get much stronger for reps for enough volume........

You don't need several types of row. Do one and get much stronger for reps......

You don't need several types of curl. Do one and get much.......

You should have a deadlift variation. And you should get it ahead of your squat to parallel.

You don't need to train six days a week with a poorly designed "program", designed by someone who knows nothing about programming.

There are great programs in the stickies. Some of them are mentioned in my sig.

Well the guy who gave this to me is in the Marines and is completely ripped. I can't ask him many questions though because he's really busy!

[RaginAzN]

Everytime I see a thread titled "should I bulk or cut" it's almost without fail that the OP needs to cut and in this case too as well I would suggest cutting.

[ktj4l]

It's very simple. You are a beginner, so you do a beginner program for optimal gains. That means you choose from Starting Strength or All Pro's beginner routine. Once you are an intermediate, you choose an intermediate program. How do you know when you're intermediate? Take a look at this: http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLi...hStandards.htm

Your current program is useless. There is not enough recovery for a natural lifter (muscles grow while you are resting, not when you're beating them to a bloody pulp at the gym every day), too much volume for a beginner, not enough frequency for a beginner, etc.

I would recommend you cut until abs are visible to begin with, considering one of your goals is looking good in the summer. This is achieved via a caloric deficit. You can read about it in the nutrition forum (read ALL the sticky threads and you will be ahead of about 99.9% of people that work out when it comes to nutrition). Invest in a kitchen scale to weigh your food, then use an online calorie tracker (i.e. Fit Day) to track all your meals. This will take some effort, but you won't get results without effort. Once your cut is complete, begin bulking over the winter. Judging by the pics and going with a target of 2lbs/week of weight loss, I don't think the cut will take more than a few months in your case once your diet is in check.

Cardio: Do two sessions per week. Either 30-40mins of LISS (low intensity steady state) or 20-25mins of HIIT (high intensity interval training). Read more about each type of cardio and then choose one. You can drop this during the bulk, unless you just want to do it for heart health.

Begin stretching and foam rolling daily. If you get sore a lot, this will help. Hot/cold showers or cold baths will also help.

[Javilionaire]

It's very simple. You are a beginner, so you do a beginner program for optimal gains. That means you choose from Starting Strength or All Pro's beginner routine. Once you are an intermediate, you choose an intermediate program. How do you know when you're intermediate? Take a look at this:

Your current program is useless. There is not enough recovery for a natural lifter (muscles grow while you are resting, not when you're beating them to a bloody pulp at the gym every day), too much volume for a beginner, not enough frequency for a beginner, etc.

I would recommend you cut until abs are visible to begin with, considering one of your goals is looking good in the summer. This is achieved via a caloric deficit. You can read about it in the nutrition forum (read ALL the sticky threads and you will be ahead of about 99.9% of people that work out when it comes to nutrition). Invest in a kitchen scale to weigh your food, then use an online calorie tracker (i.e. Fit Day) to track all your meals. This will take some effort, but you won't get results without effort. Once your cut is complete, begin bulking over the winter. Judging by the pics and going with a target of 2lbs/week of weight loss, I don't think the cut will take more than a few months in your case once your diet is in check.

Cardio: Do two sessions per week. Either 30-40mins of LISS (low intensity steady state) or 20-25mins of HIIT (high intensity interval training). Read more about each type of cardio and then choose one. You can drop this during the bulk, unless you just want to do it for heart health.

Begin stretching and foam rolling daily. If you get sore a lot, this will help. Hot/cold showers or cold baths will also help.

Thanks for the very useful advice. I do know what LISS and HIIT are. However, I don't think I could do 20-25 mins of HIIT at the moment. I could probably just about manage 13 minutes in my current form. Would that be acceptable until I increase my stamina?

Also, I'm slightly worried about cutting at the moment because I might just look like a skinny rat with no muscle. How can I avoid this?

One final question, will I still be able to increase my lifts whilst cutting? My goal has always been to bench 6 reps of 100kg or 220lbs. Currently I can bench 6 reps of 75kg or 165lbs.

Thank you once again for your time.

[musikguy72]

Well the guy who gave this to me is in the Marines and is completely ripped. I can't ask him many questions though because he's really busy!

The fact that he is completely ripped should tell you that his routine isn't appropriate for you yet. There are different routines for different training levels.
Read this: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=115643271

As far as working out your maintenance and eating above that (bulking) or below that (cutting), you just need to do the math and then monitor your results over time and adjust as needed. This is an ongoing process. Everyone is constantly adjusting to the results they are currently getting. These two links should help with your diet:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=121703981

and

http://www.fitday.com

[ktj4l]

Thanks for the very useful advice. I do know what LISS and HIIT are. However, I don't think I could do 20-25 mins of HIIT at the moment. I could probably just about manage 13 minutes in my current form. Would that be acceptable until I increase my stamina?

The 20-25mins includes 5min warmup and 5min cooldown. Actual work in a good HIIT program is only 10-15mins. Even less if you're advanced and doing Tabata.

Also, I'm slightly worried about cutting at the moment because I might just look like a skinny rat with no muscle. How can I avoid this?

You can't. But you either have to cut first or bulk first. One will make you look skinny and the other will make you gain a little more fat. I figured since it was summer and women generally go more for ripped skinny guys, you'd prefer doing this part first and then bulking later. It doesn't really matter which one you do first. You just have to pick one for yourself and stick to it for a few months. Then re-evaluate your situation then and make another decision. I wouldn't say your body fat is high enough to be any type of health risk if you choose to bulk first. Just don't let it get out of hand obviously and try to eat fairly clean on your bulk.

One final question, will I still be able to increase my lifts whilst cutting? My goal has always been to bench 6 reps of 100kg or 220lbs. Currently I can bench 6 reps of 75kg or 165lbs.

Yeah, as a beginner your lifts will go up on a strength program, even if you're cutting. If you were intermediate, the main goal would be to not lose strength or muscle mass though. You can forget gaining much of either one on a cut beyond being a beginner.

[Javilionaire]

The 20-25mins includes 5min warmup and 5min cooldown. Actual work in a good HIIT program is only 10-15mins. Even less if you're advanced and doing Tabata.

You can't. But you either have to cut first or bulk first. One will make you look skinny and the other will make you gain a little more fat. I figured since it was summer and women generally go more for ripped skinny guys, you'd prefer doing this part first and then bulking later. It doesn't really matter which one you do first. You just have to pick one for yourself and stick to it for a few months. Then re-evaluate your situation then and make another decision. I wouldn't say your body fat is high enough to be any type of health risk if you choose to bulk first. Just don't let it get out of hand obviously and try to eat fairly clean on your bulk.

Yeah, as a beginner your lifts will go up on a strength program, even if you're cutting. If you were intermediate, the main goal would be to not lose strength or muscle mass though. You can forget gaining much of either one on a cut beyond being a beginner.

Once again, amazing advice!

Would a warm up/cool down just be a light jog/fast walk?

Ok, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to continue bulking for a couple more weeks to gain a little bit of muscle in all areas (I will intergrate the HIIT workout into this though). I will then begin cutting with a calorie deficit, whilst making sure I eat 200g of protein per day (1g per lb of body weight).

Also, I will continue to use the workout above, but I will cut out a few exercises as I'm only a beginner and I need to leave myself some energy for HIIT.

How does that sound?

Finally, I would appreciate it if you could direct me to a solid ab routine that I can do every other day.

Thank you.

[ktj4l]

Warmup or cooldown is a jog or fast walk, if you're doing HIIT with running sprints.

Do what you want, but that workout routine is far from optimal for a beginner (even with half the exercises removed). Three times a week full body is the way to go here. It's your decision to make. I don't see why you would spend more time at the gym than you have to for optimal progress.

Good luck with your goals!

[Javilionaire]

Warmup or cooldown is a jog or fast walk, if you're doing HIIT with running sprints.

Do what you want, but that workout routine is far from optimal for a beginner (even with half the exercises removed). Three times a week full body is the way to go here. It's your decision to make. I don't see why you would spend more time at the gym than you have to for optimal progress.

Good luck with your goals!

Honestly, I just want to get ripped and build strength as quickly as possible. Even if it means going to the gym 6 days a week.

What do you recommend? Also, how many times a week should I do HIIT?

[A4min]

Your going to have most people here tell you to bulk (as usual). Imo you should cut, lower bf then Clean bulk when you reach your desired weight. That is if you want to take your shirt of without worrying about fat.

[ktj4l]

Honestly, I just want to get ripped and build strength as quickly as possible. Even if it means going to the gym 6 days a week.

What do you recommend?

As a beginner, you will see optimal gains training your entire body three times per week with heavy compound movements. Even guys like Arnold started like this. Right now you have no idea what your weak points are, because you haven't trained for any length of time yet. That means you work out your entire body as a unit with compound movements three times per week for at least 6 months. Then you should be able to see what body parts are lagging and this is when you add extra work for those parts. If training everything three times per week becomes too taxing, you can switch to an Upper/Lower routine. Once you're intermediate and have a solid strength base, it might also make sense to do a bodybuilding split where you're in the gym 4-5 days per week. But right now these workout programs will not give you the best results and it would be pretty dumb to spend 6 days a week training when you can achieve better results training 3 days per week.

Also, how many times a week should I do HIIT?

Once or twice a week is enough.

[Javilionaire]

As a beginner, you will see optimal gains training your entire body three times per week with heavy compound movements. Even guys like Arnold started like this. Right now you have no idea what your weak points are, because you haven't trained for any length of time yet. That means you work out your entire body as a unit with compound movements three times per week for at least 6 months. Then you should be able to see what body parts are lagging and this is when you add extra work for those parts. If training everything three times per week becomes too taxing, you can switch to an Upper/Lower routine. Once you're intermediate and have a solid strength base, it might also make sense to do a bodybuilding split where you're in the gym 4-5 days per week. But right now these workout programs will not give you the best results and it would be pretty dumb to spend 6 days a week training when you can achieve better results training 3 days per week.

Once or twice a week is enough.

Training my entire body 3 times per week? Surely I wouldn't have enough time for my muscles to heal?

Currently I'm doing each body part twice a week and they're only just about healing before I next do them.

[ktj4l]

Training my entire body 3 times per week? Surely I wouldn't have enough time for my muscles to heal?

Currently I'm doing each body part twice a week and they're only just about healing before I next do them.

That's because you're doing a bunch of redundant lifts, you have one recovery day (you would have four if you were training three days per week) and you're stressing each individual muscle group more than is needed for a beginner to grow and make strength progress. You are actually hurting your strength gains and also your muscle growth potential with the routine you're currently doing. A three day per week program will hit every muscle group 3 times per week (so more frequency than your 6 day per week program), but only hard enough that they can recover before the next workout after a day of rest. This is optimal for a beginner by far. An advanced bodybuilder will have a higher capacity to recover and an individual muscle group might be able to take an hour of hard and heavy lifting. Your muscles are not primed for this yet. As long as you can hit your entire body adequately three times per week and recover, you should do so.

[Javilionaire]

That's because you're doing a bunch of redundant lifts, you have one recovery day (you would have four if you were training three days per week) and you're stressing each individual muscle group more than is needed for a beginner to grow and make strength progress. You are actually hurting your strength gains and also your muscle growth potential with the routine you're currently doing. A three day per week program will hit every muscle group 3 times per week (so more frequency than your 6 day per week program), but only hard enough that they can recover before the next workout after a day of rest. This is optimal for a beginner by far. An advanced bodybuilder will have a higher capacity to recover and an individual muscle group might be able to take an hour of hard and heavy lifting. Your muscles are not primed for this yet. As long as you can hit your entire body adequately three times per week and recover, you should do so.

I'm still struggling to see how this will work.

There are 6 muscle groups I need to target. Assuming I will do that all in one workout, I'll need to do at least 2 exercises per group.
That's 12 exercises per workout.
Assuming I'm doing 3 sets per exercise, that's 36 sets per workout.
I'll take 30 seconds to do each set and I'll rest for 1 minute, it'll take be another 30 seconds to set up the next exercise.

All together I'll be working out for an 72 minutes if all goes to plan. I'll then have to do a 25 minute HIIT workout. It'll take me around 3 minutes to get from working out to the treadmill and set it up etc. So a total of 100 minutes working out.

I'm failing to see how this will work? 100 minutes of working out seems a bit excessive, especially as I'll only be doing 2 exercises per muscle group and only 3 sets per muscle group.

I'm not trying to be rude, but please explain where I'm going wrong.

Thank you.

[Grizvok]

I'm still struggling to see how this will work.

There are 6 muscle groups I need to target. Assuming I will do that all in one workout, I'll need to do at least 2 exercises per group.
That's 12 exercises per workout.
Assuming I'm doing 3 sets per exercise, that's 36 sets per workout.
I'll take 30 seconds to do each set and I'll rest for 1 minute, it'll take be another 30 seconds to set up the next exercise.

All together I'll be working out for an 72 minutes if all goes to plan. I'll then have to do a 25 minute HIIT workout. It'll take me around 3 minutes to get from working out to the treadmill and set it up etc. So a total of 100 minutes working out.

I'm failing to see how this will work? 100 minutes of working out seems a bit excessive, especially as I'll only be doing 2 exercises per muscle group and only 3 sets per muscle group.

I'm not trying to be rude, but please explain where I'm going wrong.

Thank you.

You are going wrong pretty much everywhere. They are called compound movements because they use multiple joints. Go to the top of the forum and READ all pros beginner routine. As a beginning weightlifter you don't need ANYTHING EVEN CLOSE to what you posted in terms of volume (which is the total amount of sets x reps you do).

[HockeyJunkie53]

Everytime I see a thread titled "should I bulk or cut" it's almost without fail that the OP needs to cut and in this case too as well I would suggest cutting.

Check out mine and tell me what you think