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  1. #1
    Registered User drmoses's Avatar
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    Creatine Hydrochloride (HCL) and weight lifting

    Hi all,

    I looked everywhere and couldn't find a post similar to this one so sorry in advance for any duplication.

    Anyways, in December I began weight lifting. Seeing really good results, with just weight lifting and 2 Isolate shakes a day, in January I began taking HCL by Cell Force.

    Last week I changed my workout routine and it is as follows;

    Day 1 Chest and Triceps
    Day 2 Back and Traps
    Day 3 Rest/Cardio
    Day 4 Quads and Calves
    Day 5 Shoulders and Biceps
    Day 6 Rest/Cardio
    Day 7 Deadlifts and Hamstring

    Ok now for the question. I was told to take 2 capsules 45-60 mins before my workout and 2 right after i finish. That equates to 20 capsules a week. Is this right? Are there and workout's i'm doing that don't require HCL? It just seems a little high even though I don't have to cycle it or load it?

    Thoughts would be really great.

    Thanks you!
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    First of all, capsules are a rip off compared to the amount you can get in powder tubs. You have to take so many of them to even compare. Second, you want to take creatine everyday so your muscles can stay saturated. You want to take about 5g a day. Doesn't matter when, as long as your getting 5grams. You can split 2.5 before 2.5 after. Take it in your post workout shake (which is how I do it, it's so much easier), ect.
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    For what its worth, I have never seen a study that used creatine HCL. they almost universally use creatine monohydrate so that is what Id recommend. Id also opt for the powder rather than pills. In the long run it may be a little cheaper. I dont think you need to take it before exercise but I would take creatine - along with a little carbs and some at least 25 g protein as soon after exercise as possible. Also unless your lifting heavy (say 1-6 to 8RM) you probably dont need creatine supplements.

    Joe
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    Registered User stewy101's Avatar
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    And try out Concrete Hydrochloride instead. It comes in a powder form and is a great product as well.......

    Here are a few more forms to look out for:



    The different forms of Creatine today


    1.Creatine monohydrate: Creatine monohydrate is the king of the creatine supplement world. It is the most inexpensive form of creatine, and has been studied exhaustively. It is popular because it works. No other legal non-hormonal bodybuilding or sports supplement can come close to the potency of creatine monohydrate. Creatine monohydrate is 88% pure creatine bound with 12% water. Early creatine products were filled with large, hard to digest particles. These earlier supplements often caused intestinal issues. Most modern creatines are micronized, and are 20 times smaller. Modern creatines generally do not have the intestinal side effects that older creatines had.

    2.Creapure® Micronized Creatine Monohydrate: Although all creatine powders may look alike, looks can be deceiving. The fact is that potentially harmful impurities such as dicyandiamide, thiourea, and dihydrotriazine may be present in creatine products produced via some low-cost methods. And because many supplement companies simply use the cheapest creatine they can find (or whatever type of creatine happens to be "hot" at the moment), quality often varies widely from one brand of creatine to the next. That's why top researchers, medical professionals, and knowledgeable health-conscious individuals alike seek out Creapure® Creatine Monohydrate.

    3. Creatine Hydrochloride: is the newest form of creatine to hit the market. Not to be confused with Creatine Ethyl Ester. Creatine hydrochloride (also known as creatine hcl) is a totally different form of creatine. In fact, Creatine Hcl was discovered quite by accident during the synthesizing of the ingredients needed to make creatine ethyl ester back in 2003. Once discovered the manufacturers began studying this new form of creatine and its effectiveness. They soon found out that compared to creatine monohydrate, creatine hydrochloride was far superior in every way.

    4. Creatine Alpha-Ketoglutarate: One of the newest forms of creatine is creatine alpha-ketoglutarate, also known as creatine AKG. This form is creatine bound to a molecule of AKG. This is the same AKG that is used in the nitric oxide formulas (arginine AKG). Alpha-Ketoglutarate is a precursor of glutamine, which means that with this supplement you are getting both glutamine and creatine. The key benefit, however, is that the intestines more easily absorb AKG, which will prevent the diarrhea that most bodybuilders experience when they take creatine monohydrate.

    5. Creatine Gluconate: This unique delivery system, quickly and continuously, delivers the supplement to your muscles – so quickly that in 24 to 36 hours you can see and feel your muscles getting bulkier after the very first serving. You will be able to pump much more, your belly muscles will increase and you will be far more energetic than before. Creatine gluconate is an ionic salt made by bonding a creatine ion to a glucose ion. What you get as a result is a product that is absorbed easily and almost completely as glucose.

    6. Magnesium Creatine Chelate: Magnesium creatine chelate, often abbreviated MCC, is a newer form of creatine that is chemically bonded to magnesium rather than a water molecule as in creatine monohydrate. This special form of creatine is absorbed through a different pathway than creatine monohydrate. Creatine monohydrate is absorbed through a sodium-dependent transporter, while magnesium creatine chelate is absorbed through a lignand-gated cation channel. Because the magnesium that is bound to the creatine is a cation, the entire molecule now becomes a cation, making it absorbable through this pathway while creatine monohydrate is not. Creatine Magnesium Chelate (pronounced key-late) is different from other forms of Creatine because it's chemically attached to the mineral magnesium for optimal absorption.* This means more creatine for your muscles and possibly less bloating or stomach discomfort!*

    7.CREATINE NITRATE: If you are into bodybuilding, then you have probably already heard of creatine nitrate and are likely wondering exactly what it is and what it can do for you. To start with, let us look at what this substance really is. It is basically a mixture of creatine and an organic nitrite or nitrate group. Once the substance is ingested or mixed in a solution, it is expected to transform back into the parent ions. This means the nitrate will get metabolized into nitric oxide when it enters smooth muscle tissue. For this reason, bodybuilders are using the substance not only because it boosts their energy levels, but also because it is believed to increase vasodilation, thus aiding muscle growth.

    8. Creatine Pyruvate : Creatine Pyruvate is a combination of Creatine and Pyruvate, both of which are impressive ergogenic (energy) producers and have been highly
    touted for building muscle and reducing body fat. The performance-enhancing effects of creatine monohydrate and pyruvate are combined for the first time in this unique nutritional formula designed to boost energy and endurance

    9. Kre-Alkalyn: Kre-Alkalyn is a pH buffered creatine that has a pH of more than 12. Manufacturers of Kre-Alkalyn claim that your body can not naturally buffer regular creatine supplements. Instead, your body breaks down regular creatine into creatinine, a useless substance excreted from your body through wastes. Further, because your body does not breakdown Kre-Alkalyn into creatinine, your body can fully absorb the creatine in Kre-Alkalyn supplements


    10. Creatine Citrate: A worthy predecessor of creatine monohydrate, this compound was amongst the first to go against its much popular counterpart, the monohydrate version. It has creatine molecule attached to citric acid. Since citric acid has a crucial role to play in the synthesis of aerobic energy this supplement is known to offer much more energy as a compound.

    11. Creatine Phosphate: Creatine phosphate created a lot of buzz initially given the fact that in the muscle creatine essentially bonds with the phosphate and having the compound directly available as a supplement might make it a direct source of instant energy. Though research proved this wrong since phosphate and creatine in the bound form are not permeable through cell membranes. Creatine phosphate is another early form of creatine. Creatine phosphate is a creatine molecule bonded to a phosphate molecule. This bonding is a process that naturally occurs within muscle cells. It was thought that by pre-bonding creatine with phosphate, that it would amplify results. Ultimately, creatine phosphate was found to be less effective then creatine monohydrate.

    12. Creatine Malate: Malic acid is known to partake in the energy producing Krebs cycle thus as a compound with creatine it is known to offer greater ATP production. Another merit of this compound is that just like creatine citrate it gets easily dissolved in water causing nil stomach discomfort. Creatine malate is a relatively new version of creatine. It is creatine chemically bonded to malic acid. Malic acid works in much the same way that citric acid does, and assists muscles with aerobic energy production.

    13. Creatine Tartrate: It is the compound containing approximately 70% creatine with 30% tartaric acid. They are present in the solid form as tablets, bars and chewable tablets. Creatine tartrate is creatine bonded to tartaric acid. This form of creatine is often used in pills, capsules, bars and chewables. It offers no benefits over creatine monohydrate.

    14. Creatine titrate. Creatine titrate (different from creatine tartrate) works in a similar manner to effervescent creatine. Creatine titrate changes the PH of the water solution when it is mixed, allowing for a more stable solution that is easier to digest.

    15. Creatine Anhydrous: An anhydrate is a compound that is form with the removal of the water molecules in the compound and that is exactly what this supplement is made up of. It is known to provide more creatine than in its monohydrate form. Creatine anhydrous is creatine monohydrate without the water molecule. Creatine anhydrous provides approximately 6% more pure creatine per serving compared to creation monohydrate.

    16. Creatine HMB: This compound is composed of creatine molecule bound to betahydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) which is composed of amino acid leucine that helps in muscle growth and recovery. It is easily soluble and absorbed in the body. Creatine HMB is creatine chemically attached to HMB (beta-hydroxy beta-methylbutyrate). HMB, by itself, assists muscle recovery and growth. This form of creatine is generally easier for the body to digest. Once in the bloodstream, the creatine and HMB are separated. Creatine HMB is a relatively new form of creatine, and there is very little research to back its effectiveness.

    17. Creatine Ethyl Ester: A compound formed of the bond between ester ethyl hydrochloride and creatine is known to enhance the muscular mass much higher than other compounds since the molecule easily passes through the membranes of cells like those of the intestines or muscles and is absorbed rapidly at a higher rate. Creatine ethyl ester is a form of creatine monohydrate, but it has an ester attached. The process, called esterification, is the result of the reaction of carboxylic acid and alcohol. The way CEE is made means that it is more bioavailable to the body and so you actually need to take less of it.

    18. (Tri-)Creatine Orotate: Creatine orotate is exclusively found in Man’s Orotine. This is simply creatine bonded to orotic acid. Orotic acid is supposed to produce ATP and increase energy levels significantly. It also possibly implies improved absorption. It would be considered a decent product by many as it is part of Man’s line, but few use it and feedback is difficult to find on it. This is likely because it is far more expensive than most bulk creatine powders.

    19. Magnesium creatine. Magnesium creatine is creatine chemically bonded to magnesium. Magnesium assists in the digestion of creatine, primarily helping it pass through the stomach. Magnesium is also involved in the process of turning creatine phosphate into ATP. Magnesium creatine has been shown to be an effective form of creatine, but only in the bonded state. Taking creatine together with magnesium, but as separate supplements, is not as effective.

    20. Creatine glutamine taurine. This form of creatine has creatine bonded with glutamine and taurine. Because both glutamine and taurine act to volumize cells, it is hoped that – in conjunction with creatine – their benefits will be heightened. One side benefit to taurine use is that it has been shown to improve strength.

    21. Effervescent creatine. Effervescent creatine has been available for a number of years. Effervescent creatines usually contains creatine monohydrate or creatine citrate, along with citric acid and bicarbonate. When effervescent creatine is placed in water, a chemical reaction takes place, resulting in the formation of creatine carrying a neutral charge. This form of creatine passes through the stomach better then creatine monohydrate. It also retains its stability longer in solution then creatine monohydrate, making it a solid option for those that mix and take their creatine solution with them.

    22. Time released creatine. Time released creatine is a new creatine product. It provides a slow, steady release of creatine. The debate over the effectiveness of time-released creatine is very heated. Because of its very nature, time-released creatine does not provide a high concentration of creatine in the blood. Many believe that a certain “concentration threshold” is required for creatine to be effective.
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    Last edited by stewy101; 03-12-2012 at 05:12 PM.
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  5. #5
    Registered User drmoses's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Tskonieczny View Post
    First of all, capsules are a rip off compared to the amount you can get in powder tubs. You have to take so many of them to even compare. Second, you want to take creatine everyday so your muscles can stay saturated. You want to take about 5g a day. Doesn't matter when, as long as your getting 5grams. You can split 2.5 before 2.5 after. Take it in your post workout shake (which is how I do it, it's so much easier), ect.
    They are $30.00 for 120 capsules. Sounds reasonable but i'll give the powder a try when these finish. Thanks!
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  6. #6
    Registered User drmoses's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JoeCannonMSCSCS View Post
    For what its worth, I have never seen a study that used creatine HCL. they almost universally use creatine monohydrate so that is what Id recommend. Id also opt for the powder rather than pills. In the long run it may be a little cheaper. I dont think you need to take it before exercise but I would take creatine - along with a little carbs and some at least 25 g protein as soon after exercise as possible. Also unless your lifting heavy (say 1-6 to 8RM) you probably dont need creatine supplements.

    Joe
    I normally take some brown rice or raw oats with some warm water before I work out as well as 2 capsules and that's all. Then after as you mentioned, I take 2 pills and 35g of protein. Monohydrate retains alot of water right? Or is it not a big deal as it's made out to be.?
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    Registered User changemyoil66's Avatar
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    Since this is your first time taking creatine, start with the basics mono. Then after 1 tub you can try other forms to see what works the best for your. HCL works the best for me, no cramping. I like concret. But it is pretty pricy.

    But also you've only been working out for a few months and shouldnt need creatine yet. You should still be getting noob gains for the 1st year at least. IF you must try a preWO to help motivate you
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    Registered User drmoses's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by stewy101 View Post
    And try out Concrete Hydrochloride instead. It comes in a powder form and is a great product as well.......
    I saw that and it was about 3 times the price? Does it get 3 times the results? I only ask cuz if it does, i'll buy it.
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    Originally Posted by drmoses View Post
    They are $30.00 for 120 capsules. Sounds reasonable but i'll give the powder a try when these finish. Thanks!
    Best of luck to you! Keep us updated. In the long run though, the powder will save you a lot of money due to the gram ratio in a tub compared to a pill bottle . Is creatine the only supplement you're using?
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    Registered User drmoses's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by changemyoil66 View Post
    Since this is your first time taking creatine, start with the basics mono. Then after 1 tub you can try other forms to see what works the best for your. HCL works the best for me, no cramping. I like concret. But it is pretty pricy.

    But also you've only been working out for a few months and shouldnt need creatine yet. You should still be getting noob gains for the 1st year at least. IF you must try a preWO to help motivate you
    Ok so no creatine at all. Ok the only reason I started is because I was getting really sore and recovery felt too long. After taking it I found a much quicker recovery time. Ok well now i'm getting confused... What's a preWO?
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    a preWO is a pre-workout drink usually heavy in caffeine. It helps motivate you to get to the gym, if not you're sitting at home with the caffeine jitters and stuff.

    Creatine will help, but like I said you shouldnt need it yet. I waited 3 years before I started taking creatine.
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    Registered User drmoses's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Tskonieczny View Post
    Best of luck to you! Keep us updated. In the long run though, the powder will save you a lot of money due to the gram ratio in a tub compared to a pill bottle . Is creatine the only supplement you're using?
    Yup just creatine HCL pills. I don't want to start taking a crap load of powder and amino like the guys at my gym (no offense guys). I'm in fairly good shape and I have a really good body structure (in my opinion) and working out has been really great for me. I want a structure I can easily maintain and I guess I was looking for a fast track to get there...

    As of now I'm down 2 inches on waist, up 1/4 inch on arms, 1/2 inch on chest and down from 285lbs to 263lbs.

    I will update more for sure.

    Thanks for the advice!
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    Registered User drmoses's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by changemyoil66 View Post
    a preWO is a pre-workout drink usually heavy in caffeine. It helps motivate you to get to the gym, if not you're sitting at home with the caffeine jitters and stuff.

    Creatine will help, but like I said you shouldnt need it yet. I waited 3 years before I started taking creatine.
    Ok i'm gonna back off the creatine. I guess I forgot to mention, I always have a tea (hot) before every work out for that purpose. Does that count?
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    since you already have the creatine might as well finish the jug. most preWO have about 100-300mg of caffeine in them along with other things to help with the pump (citruline malate). How much caffeine is in your tea? I have to drink 5 iced teas at a restaurant in order to feel the same way with 2 scoops of my preWO drink.
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    Registered User drmoses's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by changemyoil66 View Post
    since you already have the creatine might as well finish the jug. most preWO have about 100-300mg of caffeine in them along with other things to help with the pump (citruline malate). How much caffeine is in your tea? I have to drink 5 iced teas at a restaurant in order to feel the same way with 2 scoops of my preWO drink.
    Ok well i'll finish what I have and be done with it for a few years. I don't need any encouragement cuz I really love going to the gym. My problem at the beginning was taking rest day. As for the caffeine, there's about 50mg per tea. Thank you for all your advice, it will make my working out much easier!
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    Dont get to confused here dude with all this creatine talk. Creatine is a base supplement in bodybuilding and power lifting. If your gonna lift hard and heavy then you definitely want a creatine in your daily workout regimen. Yes Mono does have water retention and you will gain weight from this. It draws water from the rest of your body to hydrate your muscles and as it does that it dehydrates you so you have to drink a lot of water every day. at least 1 gallon but that is a giving already. I personally take Controlled labs Green MAGNitude which has Magnesium Creatine Chelate and Creatine Malate in it. It does everything that Mono does but you do not get the water retention or bloat from it. The stuff is awesome. My strength and endurance has gone up a ton sense I have been on it. Anyways just make sure you DO take a form of creatine while you are lifting. It will help you lift heaver and for more reps which will help you build muscle faster and burn fat along the way......
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    Registered User drmoses's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by stewy101 View Post
    Dont get to confused here dude with all this creatine talk. Creatine is a base supplement in bodybuilding and power lifting. If your gonna lift hard and heavy then you definitely want a creatine in your daily workout regimen. Yes Mono does have water retention and you will gain weight from this. It draws water from the rest of your body to hydrate your muscles and as it does that it dehydrates you so you have to drink a lot of water every day. at least 1 gallon but that is a giving already. I personally take Controlled labs Green MAGNitude which has Magnesium Creatine Chelate and Creatine Malate in it. It does everything that Mono does but you do not get the water retention or bloat from it. The stuff is awesome. My strength and endurance has gone up a ton sense I have been on it. Anyways just make sure you DO take a form of creatine while you are lifting. It will help you lift heaver and for more reps which will help you build muscle faster and burn fat along the way......
    That's the reason why I bought HCL over Mono, the water retention and the quicker recovery than taking nothing besides protein, hence the heavier lifting. Ok well that gives me a different angle. Thanks
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    Registered User drmoses's Avatar
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    I gotta be honest here, I thought I would get a consistant response. Like all the other research I've done, most people can get from point A to point B, some just get there faster than others... hhmmmm I just came up with that saying, and I like it!
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    Originally Posted by drmoses View Post
    I gotta be honest here, I thought I would get a consistant response. Like all the other research I've done, most people can get from point A to point B, some just get there faster than others... hhmmmm I just came up with that saying, and I like it!
    LOL, Hope everything works out for you and remember that creatine is your friend till the end
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    Im not sure if anyone has mentioned yet, but if your really worried about spending the extra dollars drinking a black coffee pre-workout can also be used instead of Creatine. The black coffee serves the same purpose as the caffeine within the Creatine - being in either pill or powder form.
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    Originally Posted by LKGK View Post
    The black coffee serves the same purpose as the caffeine within the Creatine
    Wut?
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    Registered User drmoses's Avatar
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    Black Coffee = Creatine? That's a first... Never heard that before...
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    the price

    Originally Posted by drmoses View Post
    I saw that and it was about 3 times the price? Does it get 3 times the results? I only ask cuz if it does, i'll buy it.

    Creacore lemon lime has been giving me some incredible results and it is 80 servings for $23.
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    Originally Posted by cadillacbentley View Post
    Creacore lemon lime has been giving me some incredible results and it is 80 servings for $23.
    strong bump from 2012
    keep rep trading out of your sig line ;)

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