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  1. #1
    yo yo yo Flex500's Avatar
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    Question George Farah Philosophy on keeping FAT out of diet...thoughts?

    As someone who is fairly educated on nutrition I try not to get sucked in to the "guru talk". But of course got in a heated debate and when you hear George Farah talk it sounds pretty convincing...not to mention he has helped drugged and natural athletes get into great shape.

    In a nutshell...

    moderate protein- (an approach I more or less agree with)
    very high carb
    no/low fat

    The thought process is that since your body needs fat if you do not eat it your body will free up the fat you are storing for use. George claims there is PLENTY of science behind this...although frankly I don't know it and/or am not familiar with it which is where I am asking you guys to jump in.

    Even in the latest MD magazine someone asked george something like "what foods to you tell your athletes to eat to get healthy fats during their diets?". His answer was pretty much "lol what? I tell them to eat almost no fat. They get enough fat in small amounts from other foods they eat so it is important to keep fat minimal so your body uses it's own fat stores for fat needs which is what gets you lean." Sort of the 80's/90's approach to bodybuilding diets.


    Thoughts? I'd first look most scoff at this but it's worth a discussion since some educated bodybuilders are started to turn back to the high carb, moderate/high protein, low/no fat approach that george advocates.
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  2. #2
    Recreational Lifter ArchangelEST's Avatar
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    Bull****.

    Essential fats cannot be manufactured by the body. That's why they are called "essential". Cut those out of your diet and good luck having a solid functioning hormonal system and any chance to build an impressive drug free natural muscle mass.

    The actual amount of fats you need in your diet depends on a lot of factors, but I suppose that you can get away with fairly low numbers if you pick the specific fats carefully.

    As far as getting lean is considered, it's more likely that a "no-fat" diet will result in very poor results instead. Even if you get lean, you will most likely feel like crap and potentially be sick and it's doubtful your muscle mass retention will be any good either.
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  3. #3
    yo yo yo Flex500's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ArchangelEST View Post
    Bull****.

    Essential fats cannot be manufactured by the body. That's why they are called "essential". Cut those out of your diet and good luck having a solid functioning hormonal system and any chance to build an impressive drug free natural muscle mass.

    The actual amount of fats you need in your diet depends on a lot of factors, but I suppose that you can get away with fairly low numbers if you pick the specific fats carefully.

    As far as getting lean is considered, it's more likely that a "no-fat" diet will result in very poor results instead. Even if you get lean, you will most likely feel like crap and potentially be sick and it's doubtful your muscle mass retention will be any good either.

    this is also my thought process. I'm sort of a moderate protein, moderate carb, moderate fat dieter myself. This just seem to get weird when I get "extreme" in any direction.

    However I will say George doesn't necessarily say no fat it is more of don't purposely add fat. So maybe his athletes are getting 15-30 grams of fact just from a few grams here and there from food.

    But the approach is simply strictly plan carbs and protein and don't worry about adding or account for fat just try to keep in minimal and your body will get enough so survive on just by default and it will push your body to burn more fat.
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  4. #4
    Rebelling in my psychosis thegymbum's Avatar
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    That is complete crap. Decades ago they thought that less fat was better, but time and again, it's been proven that it's absolutely necessary.

    As a medical student, I can understand where this comes from, though, lol, our entire, like, one week (sad) of nutrition focused mainly on getting people with high blood pressure and heart disease to lower their salt, eat more fruits and veggies, and eat less fat. But they're assuming everyone is already eating a high fat diet and needs improvement. Wrong.

    From a personal stand point, I went for a long time without really eating any fat and it tore my body to shreads. I blame most of my severe joint pain on the exrteme insufficiency of dietary fat- it really kicked in when I wasn't eating fat, but the damage has persisted. And that's just one of the tolls. I felt like crap, my hair and skin were ridiculously dried out, I lost muscle, had no energy. Not cool.
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  5. #5
    yo yo yo Flex500's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by thegymbum View Post
    That is complete crap. Decades ago they thought that less fat was better, but time and again, it's been proven that it's absolutely necessary.

    As a medical student, I can understand where this comes from, though, lol, our entire, like, one week (sad) of nutrition focused mainly on getting people with high blood pressure and heart disease to lower their salt, eat more fruits and veggies, and eat less fat. But they're assuming everyone is already eating a high fat diet and needs improvement. Wrong.

    From a personal stand point, I went for a long time without really eating any fat and it tore my body to shreads. I blame most of my severe joint pain on the exrteme insufficiency of dietary fat- it really kicked in when I wasn't eating fat, but the damage has persisted. And that's just one of the tolls. I felt like crap, my hair and skin were ridiculously dried out, I lost muscle, had no energy. Not cool.

    It makes you wonder why so many people are going this route with George Farah. I 100% agree with you. But man I know some smart people, educated people, using george for their diets.
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  6. #6
    Registered User Lvisaa2's Avatar
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    If enhanced then I could see this working and I think that even in the short-term(for a prep) it could work for a non-enhanced individual, but I would wager that individual would see some definite effects of such a diet. I can't speak to how or if those effects would play out in an enhanced individual, but I initially dieted similar to this(coupled with my calories being too low) which led to poor hormones, lack of energy, and mental issues(agitation, brain fog, just general sort of craziness).
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  7. #7
    Universal Nutrition naturalguy's Avatar
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    Different things work for different people. Lots of guys get great results with that type of diet just like they do with other types of diets. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
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  8. #8
    Chasing cats since 1967 WonderPug's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by naturalguy View Post
    Different things work for different people. Lots of guys get great results with that type of diet just like they do with other types of diets. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
    Consuming an acutely unhealthy diet (deficient in EFA's) is not a good idea for anybody.
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  9. #9
    Banned JasonDB's Avatar
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    George Farah is a cell tech guru... the stickies do not apply to his athletes nor is his advice useful to the natty. /thread
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  10. #10
    USAPL Nut Hugger ErickStevens's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by naturalguy View Post
    Different things work for people on anabolic steroids. Lots of guys get great results with that type of diet just like they do with other types of diets. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
    Fixed that for you. When you're pumped full of exogenous hormones I'm sure it's easy to go low/no fat. I challenge you to find one natural competitor who has prepped on low(>20g)/no fat for the duration of their diet without some kind of negative side effects.
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  11. #11
    Universal Nutrition naturalguy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ErickStevens View Post
    Fixed that for you. When you're pumped full of exogenous hormones I'm sure it's easy to go low/no fat. I challenge you to find one natural competitor who has prepped on low(>20g)/no fat for the duration of their diet without some kind of negative side effects.
    There are plenty of natural guys who have done it. Most guys were dieting that way back in the day and they got into great condition with a lot of muscle. It can and has been done by many.
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  12. #12
    USAPL Nut Hugger ErickStevens's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by naturalguy View Post
    There are plenty of natural guys who have done it. Most guys were dieting that way back in the day and they got into great condition with a lot of muscle. It can and has been done by many.
    I'm not saying it doesn't work. I'm saying it isn't optimal. Have you ever dieted down to a very low body fat? Eating >50g of fat for months on end has some gnarly repercussions.
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  13. #13
    Broceptologist lunchboy's Avatar
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    Every contest prep I have read from naturals who went low fat they had to eat a lot for a month before they started to feel remotely normal, they were lean, but they felt like death.
    Part of the not eating like a retard crew (NELARC).

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  14. #14
    Banned JasonDB's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by naturalguy View Post
    There are plenty of natural guys who have done it. Most guys were dieting that way back in the day and they got into great condition with a lot of muscle. It can and has been done by many.
    Like natural natural or just cycled off stuff that shows on a drug test 2-3 months out, stayed on everything else and balanced their t:e ratio to make the pee test pretty? What definition of natural are we using? You do realize most of the guys doing well on stage at natty shows and drug free powerlifting meets aren't natural natural right? Its a very relative term.
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    Originally Posted by lunchboy View Post
    Every contest prep I have read from naturals who went low fat they had to eat a lot for a month before they started to feel remotely normal, they were lean, but they felt like death.
    My hormones didn't get back to normal until about 6 months after my prep was done. I spent about 6 months eating 50g of fat per less.
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  16. #16
    yo yo yo Flex500's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by naturalguy View Post
    Different things work for different people. Lots of guys get great results with that type of diet just like they do with other types of diets. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

    different things work for different people to some degree...but we get a little carried away with that statement. People don't metabolize fats different and carbs completely, 180 degrees different.

    What I mean is one person can't eat no/little fat and then burn off the fat they have and use it for health/homones in place of not taking it in the diet and another person do the same thing with different results. Fat is going to do the same thing in everyone's body physiologically It won't chemically "act" different.

    We take the "oh dude it's all individual" thing way too far.
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  17. #17
    Broceptologist lunchboy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ErickStevens View Post
    My hormones didn't get back to normal until about 6 months after my prep was done. I spent about 6 months eating 50g of fat per less.
    I said remotely, I know that to actually be fully functioning again it can take longer, I should have clarified that :-p. This is along the lines of what I meant though.
    Part of the not eating like a retard crew (NELARC).

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    224.6
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  18. #18
    yo yo yo Flex500's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JasonDB View Post
    George Farah is a cell tech guru... the stickies do not apply to his athletes nor is his advice useful to the natty. /thread

    he is a cell tech guru but has VERY strong believes in his diet whether he is helping and enhanced or 100% natural athlete. He very much believes in little fat, very high carbs, moderate protein.

    My point is before privately speaking with him I thought his diet thing was all a joke. LIke it's all the cell tech and the whole carb, no fat, diet thing was fake. Hell I thought maybe he didn't even really do the diets just the cell tech!

    But I genuinely think he strongly believes in this way of dieting.

    Quite interesting...but I'll be enjoying my 100 grams of fat today
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  19. #19
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    Originally Posted by lunchboy View Post
    I said remotely, I know that to actually be fully functioning again it can take longer, I should have clarified that :-p. This is along the lines of what I meant though.
    Yeah, everybody rebounds differently.
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  20. #20
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    Originally Posted by ErickStevens View Post
    I'm not saying it doesn't work. I'm saying it isn't optimal. Have you ever dieted down to a very low body fat? Eating >50g of fat for months on end has some gnarly repercussions.
    I did diet like that for my first bb contest many, many moons ago. I am not saying it's optimal either, just saying it's possible.
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  21. #21
    Banned JasonDB's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Flex500 View Post
    he is a cell tech guru but has VERY strong believes in his diet whether he is helping and enhanced or 100% natural athlete. He very much believes in little fat, very high carbs, moderate protein.

    My point is before privately speaking with him I thought his diet thing was all a joke. LIke it's all the cell tech and the whole carb, no fat, diet thing was fake. Hell I thought maybe he didn't even really do the diets just the cell tech!

    But I genuinely think he strongly believes in this way of dieting.

    Quite interesting...but I'll be enjoying my 100 grams of fat today
    I'll be happily enjoying my 40g of fat today (some of which is my fish oil caps lulz) on my recomp. ;-)
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  22. #22
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    Originally Posted by naturalguy View Post
    I did diet like that for my first bb contest many, many moons ago. I am not saying it's optimal either, just saying it's possible.
    Totally possible but not for the reason Farah mentions.
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  23. #23
    yo yo yo Flex500's Avatar
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    so my question is what do you guys think is needed on a diet. I mean generally speaking. Your average 200ish or so bodybuilder. Maybe we are getting carried away with the fat. Many days I eat 40-90 grams of fat. Maybe truth be told it woudl be better to lower that down to the 30-50 range and take in more carbs. I don't now I have just been thinking recently how much fat do I need...maybe I am being too obsessive about getting enough and I'd be better served getting more carbs and less fat. Not no to minimal fat...just let fat.
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  24. #24
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    Originally Posted by Flex500 View Post
    so my question is what do you guys think is needed on a diet. I mean generally speaking. Your average 200ish or so bodybuilder. Maybe we are getting carried away with the fat. Many days I eat 40-90 grams of fat. Maybe truth be told it woudl be better to lower that down to the 30-50 range and take in more carbs. I don't now I have just been thinking recently how much fat do I need...maybe I am being too obsessive about getting enough and I'd be better served getting more carbs and less fat. Not no to minimal fat...just let fat.
    Well my answer is it's different for everyone but I know you don't like that answer lol. I think you should experiment and see what amount works best for you.
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  25. #25
    Registered User Lvisaa2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Flex500 View Post
    so my question is what do you guys think is needed on a diet. I mean generally speaking. Your average 200ish or so bodybuilder. Maybe we are getting carried away with the fat. Many days I eat 40-90 grams of fat. Maybe truth be told it woudl be better to lower that down to the 30-50 range and take in more carbs. I don't now I have just been thinking recently how much fat do I need...maybe I am being too obsessive about getting enough and I'd be better served getting more carbs and less fat. Not no to minimal fat...just let fat.
    I think for you, lower levels of fat are fine. I'd get enough for proper health, but I think that is pretty low(assuming you get the right kinds of fats, EFAs, etc.). I think you'd do fine on lower fats and I think there is suggestion that with lower fat, high carb, high protein that you will see leaner gains, but I don't know if that is just broness or not. I'm not well-versed in that aspect.

    Originally Posted by ErickStevens View Post
    Everybody is different metabolically. You've got guys like Alberto Nunez who never get below 300g of CHO while prepping and you've got guys like me who have do drop it below 150g for extended periods of time. Knowing nothing about this hypothetical 200lb bodybuilder or his activity levels, I'd start him at 250P/300C/50F and see how it goes.
    I'd probably be relatively similar, slightly higher protein, higher fat, lower carbs. 275P/250C/75F - Put 'em at 2775, which depending on LBM wouldn't need too much cardio(assuming non-sedentary lifestyle) to be able to cut there. Granted, it would also depend on how aggressive you'd need to be with the cut.
    Last edited by Lvisaa2; 02-27-2012 at 07:30 AM.
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  26. #26
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    Everybody is different metabolically. You've got guys like Alberto Nunez who never get below 300g of CHO while prepping and you've got guys like me who have do drop it below 150g for extended periods of time. Knowing nothing about this hypothetical 200lb bodybuilder or his activity levels, I'd start him at 250P/300C/50F and see how it goes.
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