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  1. #1
    Registered User EatMarkers4lunch's Avatar
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    What is the difference between carbohydrates and fat?

    I have been doing some research and found that diets with the same amount of calories consisting of high protein and high fat experience more weight loss than diets consisting of high protein low fat and more carbs. I'm a bit confused if fats are better than worse than carbohydrates.
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  2. #2
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    Originally Posted by EatMarkers4lunch View Post
    I have been doing some research and found that diets with the same amount of calories consisting of high protein and high fat experience more weight loss than diets consisting of high protein low fat and more carbs.
    Not exactly.*





    -----------------
    * See: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0804748
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  3. #3
    Registered User EatMarkers4lunch's Avatar
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    "In nutrition, one component of inefficiency is measured in thermogenesis (thermic effect of feeding), or the heat generated in processing food. There is a large literature on this subject and the general conclusion, as summarized in a recent review by Jéquier [15], is that thermic effects of nutrients is approximately 2–3 % for lipids, 6–8 % for carbohydrates, and 25–30% for proteins. "


    and "An example is the recent demonstration of metabolic advantage in a small, pilot study [7] which, despite its preliminary status, was extremely well controlled. Three groups were studied: A low carbohydrate group (LoCHO = 1800 kcal for men; 1500 kcal for women), a low fat group (LoFat, 1800 and 1500); a third group also consumed a low carbohydrate diet but an additional 300 kcalories were provided (LoCHO+300, 2100 and 1800). The order of average amount of weight lost was LoCHO = 23 lbs, LoCHO+300 = 20 lbs LoFat = 17 lbs."
    from
    www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12174324

    basically, the differences of fat loses was due to entropy using the second law of thermodynamics.

    couple other quotes from a different source
    Manninen states that “6 mol ATP is consumed during the synthesis of 1 mol glucose from pyruvate or lactate. The transformation of gluconeogenic amino acids into glucose requires even more energy because 4 mol ATP is needed to dispose of the nitrogen as urea” (Manninen and Feinman) Therefore, it is impossible to state that every energy transformation function from carbohydrates, proteins, and fats will yield the same efficiency. In addition, the complex process of breaking down proteins which includes, “synthesis, folding, targeting regulatory processes, and protein breakdown have an overall cost to body energy homeostatic that is significantly higher”
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  4. #4
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    ^ I presume you have not read the full-text of the study you cite. The conclusion is highly relevant:

    Conclusion

    The main pathways to obesity mainly depend on environmental and behavioral factors which influence gene expression. Except the very rare cases of monogenic origin, obesity results from a polygenic disorder. The mechanisms by which environmental factors interact with regulatory pathways in the polygenic forms of obesity are yet to be discovered. A simplified view emphasizes the importance of lipid balance. Factors that favour fat intake and those that inhibit fat oxidation are likely to promote excessive weight gain. Recent evidence, however, suggests that high-fat diets are not sufficient to explain the rise in prevalence of obesity.

    Among individuals consuming a high-fat diet, those with a high capacity to oxidize fat appear to have a low risk of weight gain. Further research is needed to better understand how fat balance is regulated and to develop new drugs aiming at decreasing fat intake or stimulating fat oxidation. It is also worth remembering that the most efficient way to stimulate fat oxidation is physical activity of moderate intensity and
    long duration.
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  5. #5
    Registered User EatMarkers4lunch's Avatar
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    ok also from this source i pointed out
    "Actual nutrient intakes from food records during the VLCK (%carbohydrate:fatrotein = ~9:63:28%) and the LF (~58:22:20%) were significantly different. Dietary energy was restricted, but was slightly higher during the VLCK (1855 kcal/day) compared to the LF (1562 kcal/day) diet for men. Both between and within group comparisons revealed a distinct advantage of a VLCK over a LF diet for weight loss, total fat loss, and trunk fat loss for men (despite significantly greater energy intake)." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15533250
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  6. #6
    Chasing cats since 1967 WonderPug's Avatar
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    The LF diet has lower intake of protein compared the VLCK. The outcome would likely be very different if both diets contained comparable intake of of protein.

    Standard diabetic exchange lists were used to ensure a constant energy and macronutrient balance of protein (~20% energy), fat (~25% energy), and carbohydrate (~55% of energy) during the LF diet. The LF diet was also designed to contain <10% saturated fat and <300 mg cholesterol (i.e., a Step-I diet). Foods encouraged during the LF diet included whole grains (breads, cereals, and pastas), fruit/fruit juices, vegetables, vegetable oils, and low-fat dairy and meat products. We developed customized diabetic exchange lists for the VLCK diet period in order to ensure a constant energy and balance of protein (~30% energy), fat (~60% energy), and carbohydrate (~10% of energy) throughout the day.
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  7. #7
    Registered User EatMarkers4lunch's Avatar
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    sorry this was my source for the feinman source
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC506782/
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  8. #8
    Registered User EatMarkers4lunch's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by WonderPug View Post
    ^Standard diabetic exchange lists were used to ensure a constant energy and macronutrient balance of protein (~20% energy), fat (~25% energy), and carbohydrate (~55% of energy) during the LF diet. The LF diet was also designed to contain <10% saturated fat and <300 mg cholesterol (i.e., a Step-I diet). Foods encouraged during the LF diet included whole grains (breads, cereals, and pastas), fruit/fruit juices, vegetables, vegetable oils, and low-fat dairy and meat products. We developed customized diabetic exchange lists for the VLCK diet period in order to ensure a constant energy and balance of protein (~30% energy), fat (~60% energy), and carbohydrate (~10% of energy) throughout the day.:
    I thought the LF diet has roughly the same proportion of protein calories than the high fat diet
    VLCK (%carbohydrate:fatrotein = ~9:63:28%) and the LF (~58:22:20%) 28% and 20%
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  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by EatMarkers4lunch View Post
    I thought the LF diet has roughly the same proportion of protein calories than the high fat diet
    VLCK (%carbohydrate:fatrotein = ~9:63:28%) and the LF (~58:22:20%) 28% and 20%
    Average protein intake was almost twice as high in the VLCK group than in the LF group (~135 grams vs. ~75 grams).
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    Further research is needed to better understand how fat balance is regulated to develop new drugs aiming at decreasing fat intake or stimulating fat oxidation.
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    ^ That's easier than having to eat less and/or move more, right
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    Some fat ie peanut butter is good. Some carbs like veggies and wheat sourced are good. A healthy diet and good exercise are key to losing weight. Good rule of thumb if it had eyes and it's not fried it's good meat. If it's green it will keep you lean. If it's white it's not right meaning bleached or enriched. Plus stay away from sugary drinks.
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    Originally Posted by sexyrexy21 View Post
    Some fat ie peanut butter is good. Some carbs like veggies and wheat sourced are good. A healthy diet and good exercise are key to losing weight. Good rule of thumb if it had eyes and it's not fried it's good meat. If it's green it will keep you lean. If it's white it's not right meaning bleached or enriched. Plus stay away from sugary drinks.
    This is why we can't have nice things around here...


    Calorie deficit is the key to weight loss...period. A diet composed mainly of whole unprocessed foods is a good rule of thumb.
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    Question OP: do you want to know just out of curiosity? Or do you think these insignificant details will make or break your progress?
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    obviously theres studies that support both sides but different things work for different people...some people respond to carbs others respond well to fats

    the key is finding out what works for you by training both sides of the spectrum and seeing which gives you better results
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    Originally Posted by WonderPug View Post
    Average protein intake was almost twice as high in the VLCK group than in the LF group (~135 grams vs. ~75 grams).
    If all else was equal, wouldn't you expect the higher-protein group to have less total weight loss?
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    Well, I'm just curious trying to understand the differences between carbohydrates and fats. My mom is a pharmacist, and so she is always telling me fats are bad *lead to heart disease artery clots etc) But, there is evidence that saturated fat is not linked to heart disease, but carbohydrates is rather. I'm trying to write a research paper explaining diets to college students. I look around online and I see evidence supporting like both sides so I'm confused about which is worse fats or carbs. I mean if I'm trying to bulk up I need to eat a lot of carbs or fats as well as a high protein diet. but hey I'm also new to researching nutrition. In my paper, I explained itfym and using the first/second law of thermodynamics as of now these two laws are both correct right? I'm trying to figure out what is based on facts and proven, and what is wish washie.
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    Dont eat for a month till ur about 130 pounds with no muscle. Go shop at ambercrombie and fitch, buy $80 shirts, $120 dollar pants, and $50 dollar thong sandles. Jell ur hair up like a pretty boy. Dress like a flaming homosexual. Have your parents buy you a bmw. And most importantly walk around like you have a dik up ur azz and talk with a lisp...You do that and you'll get more beaver than a mountain man
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    Originally Posted by Nimm View Post
    If all else was equal, wouldn't you expect the higher-protein group to have less total weight loss?
    You should expect more protein intake to result in more weight loss, if the diets were isocaloric, though the difference would be marginal unless the delta in protein intake was huge.
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    Originally Posted by WonderPug View Post
    ^ I presume you have not read the full-text of the study you cite. The conclusion is highly relevant:
    which conclusion is this? Jéquier measure of the thermogenesis was used as a basis for Feinman's article http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC506782/. Feinman's article is giving support for the second law of thermodynamics.

    both laws of thermodynamics hold for nutrition correct?
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    Originally Posted by WonderPug View Post
    You should expect more protein intake to result in more weight loss, if the diets were isocaloric, though the difference would be marginal unless the delta in protein intake was huge.
    And is that just because of the higher TEF for protein? On isocaloric diets where one had, say 135g of P/day and the other had 70g/day, I would've expected more weight loss on the 70g diet from a greater proportion of the lost weight coming from muscle.
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    ^ Unless the individuals are engaging in (intensive) resistance training, the lower protein intake meets sufficiency.



    Originally Posted by EatMarkers4lunch View Post
    both laws of thermodynamics hold for nutrition correct?
    The first law of thermodynamics never exists in the absence of the second law. Both laws are inviolate, and they must be applied correctly.

    So what's your point?
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    Originally Posted by sexyrexy21 View Post
    Some fat ie peanut butter is good. Some carbs like veggies and wheat sourced are good. A healthy diet and good exercise are key to losing weight. Good rule of thumb if it had eyes and it's not fried it's good meat. If it's green it will keep you lean. If it's white it's not right meaning bleached or enriched. Plus stay away from sugary drinks.

    If it's white, it's not right, but whey powder unflavoured is white?




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